Returning TP Foe to the game as a craftable temp power.

[Greycat]

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

This is a very biased presentation. I often took Teleport Foe back on Live. And I always did it with an eye to yanking specific targets out of a crowded space to me where I could deal with the target alone. And seeing as how that novel idea was told to me by multiple people in the game, it wasn't just 'weirdos' taking Teleport Foe without taking Recall Friend.

 

Isn't that *also* a biased presentation? Everyone has different experiences. If you'd asked me, the only characters I'd take TP Foe (as a separate power) on would be (a) my Warshades, who get it inherently (and would use it on Quantums/Voids, with their hold queued up and ready for when the enemy arrived,) and (b) someone using Traps, and that's wonky and requires a lot of setup. (My PBs tended to just snag stealth and do a drive by with Incandescent Strike.)

 

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

Envenomed Dagger has a range of 80 feet. Which is also combat range for the mobs. The Teleport Foe component of Teleport Target has a range of 200 feet. So as long as you maintain the targeting box, you can yank targets from well beyond aggro radius. (Edit: And you can do fun things like teleport enemies to you at elevators, take the elevator back to a different floor, re-teleport the target to you again, and have nothing else follow because they won't use elevators. And after a little bit, the mobs that may have pursued to the elevators or portal will go back to where they started, and it is safe to return to the previous area and do that again. Or target a foe, run back through some halls to another room where the mobs will give up pursuit trying to reach, and teleport the target to you to ensure isolation. Something direct attacks like Envenomed Dagger can't do.)

 

 

... and when in that chain would you run out of charges of the temp power as you do it to defeat a single enemy? Since TP Foe only worked on minions and some LTs? Trying to see the relevance to the argument against, here. Say it was given 10 charges, with a 10 "stack" max, so you can do it 100 times. Even running solo, base settings, so there are only 2-3 critters in a spawn, there aren't that many missions where that'd be useful to do repeatedly - and there'd be much more useful and less time consuming ways to deal with a minion or lt. Like... every other power you have.  Assuming you can manage to pull each mob without aggroing the others, you can do that to 33 spawns, if you hit *every* single time.

 

Is this... overpowered? Doesn't sound like it to me.

 

Edited November 29 by Greycat

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

And they could go in and learn coding and volunteer as a dev and program a way around it, too...

 

Sorry, Rudra, you're starting to take some of these to kind of silly lengths. Go make a second account so you have someone with TP Target? Hell, I have three accounts, thanks to RPing, and I wouldn't always have that option. The help channel has the same issues as a GM - you have to hope there's enough population there that someone *has* that option, and is willing to use it.

Normally I can understand where you are coming from, but not in this case. For the multiple accounts part, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from having a character with Teleport Target on any of them other than you choose not to. And that is like choosing to not take Teleport Target itself. It is your choice to make, but if your choice is to not take Teleport Target, then why would you complain that you don't have access to the power when you have chosen not to take it? What is stopping you from even just throwing a level 4 character together with Teleport Target named "Emergency Teleporter" or whatever other name you prefer? As for requesting help on available channels, you are more likely to get someone to be able to help you requesting help from the community than you are to get help from a GM. (Also not a ding on GMs. I understand the staffing problem.) And there are players like me that when we find out someone needs help, regardless of a boss they can't beat, they are having problems finding a glowie, or any other problem including stuck mobs, we stop what we are doing unless we are on timed missions and lend a hand. And all that ignores the already available options for dealing with stuck mobs. (Edit again: For that matter, players can use their second build to have Teleport Target available to them already on that character. The second build doesn't even need to be fully slotted/tricked out with enhancements. Mob stuck in the wall? Change to second build, yank out, defeat, and then when able to, change back to main build.) So I have issues with this response.

 

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

You and I have both seen plenty of "I just want more power" requests. I generally am wary and iffy of them as well. I just don't see this as being anywhere near as "power creep"-y given the power's already limited use (I'd be more against it if it were a temp Teleport Target instead of just TP Foe) and the fact the temp versions can be "tuned" if needed with number of charges, recall, etc. (plus, of course, their lack of ability to be enhanced with range, acc, etc. after being picked up, unlike the pool power.)

The author's second post references just having the power for general use. The author's third post full on throws out the mobs stuck in walls reason. The author's fourth post specifically calls out being able to teleport bosses, which is something Teleport Target can't do. I'm sorry, but the only thing "weaker" about the proposed temp power is having charges. And even that is circumvented by being craftable. Just pop a crafting table in your mission and craft more charges. And the proposed temp power as portrayed by the author is stronger than the pool power in what it can teleport. So it is a stronger teleport effect that takes no power picks and can be recharged on the fly by simply crafting more as you go.

 

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

Isn't that *also* a biased presentation? Everyone has different experiences.

No, it isn't. I'm not calling anyone a weirdo for taking and using a power the game had available to us for use. Neither am I calling anyone a weirdo for not taking and using a power the game had available to us for use. (Edit: In fact, the whole point of my response to the comment I was responding to with the quoted comment you think is biased is specifically to say there were reasons for taking Teleport Foe without Recall Friend, and that does not make those players weirdos.)

 

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

If you'd asked me, the only characters I'd take TP Foe (as a separate power) on would be (a) my Warshades, who get it inherently (and would use it on Quantums/Voids, with their hold queued up and ready for when the enemy arrived,) and (b) someone using Traps, and that's wonky and requires a lot of setup. (My PBs tended to just snag stealth and do a drive by with Incandescent Strike.)

That's fine. Everyone builds to their own specifications. You aren't insulting other players for building and playing different than you though.

 

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

... and when in that chain would you run out of charges of the temp power as you do it to defeat a single enemy? Since TP Foe only worked on minions and some LTs? Trying to see the relevance to the argument against, here. Say it was given 10 charges, with a 10 "stack" max, so you can do it 100 times. Even running solo, base settings, so there are only 2-3 critters in a spawn, there aren't that many missions where that'd be useful to do repeatedly - and there'd be much more useful and less time consuming ways to deal with a minion or lt. Like... every other power you have.  Assuming you can manage to pull each mob without aggroing the others, you can do that to 33 spawns, if you hit *every* single time.

Not the point of the comment you are quoting. Why would you ask about chains? (I'm guessing you mean attack chains here.) I'm curious as to who uses Teleport Target as part of their attack chain now. No, the author's post I was responding to was stating that Envenomed Dagger could be used to pull and isolate bosses. Envenomed Dagger only has an 80 feet range and you must have direct line of sight to the target to hit the target with it. So you are at risk of getting attacked by everything with the target boss, including the target boss from the author's post, when you go to use Envenomed Dagger to pull. Teleport Foe, as the power being called up by Teleport Target to go after your chosen target, has a 200 feet range and does not require direct line of sight to the target, just that the target be targeted. So while it can't teleport bosses or higher, or even many lieutenants, it can still be used to isolate mobs without having to have direct line of sight or risk attacks from the other enemies with the one you are teleporting. I was pointing out the difference in capabilities of the powers of the post I was responding to. (If the proposed temp power is made powerful enough to teleport any enemy you can encounter on an instanced map, like the author seems to expect with his/her/their boss comment, then you are now talking about a much, much, much more powerful power as a temp than the pool power it is supposed to be a weaker version of. Regardless of number of charges or recharge rate.)

 

Edited November 29 by Rudra

[tidge]

I've experienced the issue of mobiles being stuck (or otherwise, off-the-map *enough* that they can't be affected)... sometimes this has been 'natural', sometimes this is due to a specific combination of knockback powers and specific maps (that seem prone to this... 'new caves' for example).

 

However: This is an incredibly niche use case, even with the one character I was playing that seemed to have this happen somewhat frequently.

 

This request ('give us *this* temp power') strikes me as something of a big ask, with relatively little justification (from the niche case) and would likely just be used for things like getting aggro from distant mobs (or some other game effect). I feel like such a power (single target, standard TP rules) wouldn't be worth the effort for the returns.

 

There are other 'missing' temp attacks that I think are more relevant, not just for the 'stuck in wall' use case (but somewhat applicable):

• ground-targeted AoE (we have multiple enemy targeted AoE)
• (single-target) immobilize/-fly <- I'm reasonably sure that there are acquirable 'Web Grenades' as a temp power.

The latter seems like a big miss, especially when I consider that Envenomed Daggers exist and have an out-sized impact for some content. Single-target immobilizes are IMO pretty skippable powers (often T1, they pretty much either have minimal slotting or rarely have been used for a specific set bonus on my characters), but -Regeneration powers are not. YMMV. Many immobilizes reduce the magnitude of KB.

[OEM61]

On 11/28/2024 at 1:29 PM, BasiliskXVIII said:

 

You say it doesn't happen.

No I didn't.

[OEM61]

On 11/28/2024 at 7:22 PM, Greycat said:

 

OK, a few things.

 

First, and this probably limits the usefulness, the bigger the big-bad, the less likely they are to be affected by teleport.

 

Second, this isn't the same as teleport target.

1 - I didn't literally mean that someone would grab Positron or Lord Recluse this way.  Any old enemy will do.  Being able to kidnap an Lt. while the numerous guards have to find their way to some stairs can give someone plenty of quality alone time with the more dangerous enemy.

2 - No, but it's half of it and I knew plenty of people that used teleport foe to the team's advantage once upon a time.

But as I said in the first place it comes down to cost and charges.
Since characters of all levels, and that means wealth levels, too, may encounter stuck enemies, I think only a single charge at low cost is more appropriate.  You only need it for mission-necessary enemies or possibly an enemy that is stuck in a wall but close enough to a mission clicky that they shoot you to prevent activation.  There shouldn't be more than one of those in a mission unless you have incredibly bad luck, and even then it would only matter if you were alone (more players, more charges for the team to use, and on a team the enemy stopping you from clicking the glowy would be shooting at other targets so you wouldn't even need to use it then).


In the end, though, one big question remains.
What if the necessary stuck enemy is a Boss or higher?  Then the power is either going to be a high-power version to make sure that it works to unstick everyone (and thus very much work to pull the biggest and baddest) or it is still going to leave people needing to exit and re-enter and hope or wait for support.

[golstat2003]

I'm fine with this provided that it can't be used to pull Boss level enemies.

 

EDIT: if the current power pick version can pull bosses then fine. If it can't then again no, a craftable temp power should not be more powerful then a power that requires a power pick.

Edited December 3 by golstat2003

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

EDIT: if the current power pick version can pull bosses then fine. If it can't then again no, a craftable temp power should not be more powerful then a power that requires a power pick.

Teleport Foe, as part of Teleport Target, cannot teleport bosses or higher. It can teleport lieutenants, but only some of them. That is why earlier in the thread it was described as only being able to teleport minions and under.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Teleport Foe, as part of Teleport Target, cannot teleport bosses or higher. It can teleport lieutenants, but only some of them. That is why earlier in the thread it was described as only being able to teleport minions and under.

 

Yes, so again the craftable power should be limited to the same.