tips for Earth/Marine please?

[Xandyr]

Hey all

   Gonna delve back into Controllers, and want to make an Earth/Marine. Any tips/feedback on this pairing anyone would like to share? Is Vocanic Gasses worth procc'ing? What about the OF:Damage/KD and the Soulbound proc in Animate Stone? 

 

Appreciate anything and everything!

 

- X

[Maelwys]

12 hours ago, Xandyr said:

Hey all

   Gonna delve back into Controllers, and want to make an Earth/Marine. Any tips/feedback on this pairing anyone would like to share? Is Vocanic Gasses worth procc'ing? What about the OF:Damage/KD and the Soulbound proc in Animate Stone? 

 

Appreciate anything and everything!

 

- X

Earth is still a very solid set.
Stone Cages + Stalagmites and Earthquake + Quicksand give you a lot of AoE CC ability.
Adding Tidepool and Whitecap from Marine almost gets ridiculous.

Volcanic Gasses is one of the better AoE holds (IMO most are trash) because it's coded very strangely - instead of one long-duration effect or a single pseudopet; it spawns several pseudopets over a 50s duration, most of which apply a Hold effect rather than damage (the only one that deals direct damage or inherits damage enhancements is the initial Pets_Volcanicgas pseudopet). So it procs a little better than most pseudopet powers... especially with procs from Hold Sets... but I'd still not rely on it as a regular source of AoE damage output.

The Pet benefits greatly from Toroidal Bubble - throw the two +10% Pet Damage Resistance globals into the mix and they can reach the 90% hardcap to everything. Alongside the +MaxHP and healing they become very solid and can comfortably tank most tough single-targets (AVs/GMs/etc) in the game.
Don't bother with a KB>KD proc (its Hurl already inflicts KD). Soulbound is OK if you can spare the slots for it, but keeping Shifting Tides up will be more important.

Last I poked at an Earth/Marine (back in July from the looks of it) I came up with the below, although I've not personally played it except on Brainstorm. You could easily move a slot from Brine to Animate Stone for the Soulbound proc:
zController - Earth - Marine.mbd
Assuming you're keeping Barrier up it'll have Softcapped S/L Defense and hardcapped Fire/Cold Resistance; plus a <68s cycle on Power of the Depths.

It's also worth pointing out that /Marine is one of the few Controller builds that I'd try to take a patron pet on (and possibly veer towards Core instead of Radial Lore!) since both Shifting Tides and PoTD play so nicely with them; and you can shore up their mitigation drastically (Barrier Reef + Maneuvers + Aura IOs is ~27.7% Def to all; throw in Barrier Destiny and/or Support Hybrid and that's softcap territory. Toroidal Bubble + Aura IOs = ~40% Res to all; on top of Barrier and any inherent resistances like Stony's. Then there's the +MaxHP from PoTD and all the Healing/Regeneration...) 
 

Edited December 17, 2024 by Maelwys

[Meknomancer]

13 hours ago, Xandyr said:

Hey all

   Gonna delve back into Controllers, and want to make an Earth/Marine. Any tips/feedback on this pairing anyone would like to share? Is Vocanic Gasses worth procc'ing? What about the OF:Damage/KD and the Soulbound proc in Animate Stone? 

 

Appreciate anything and everything!

 

- X

 

I did make one of these, the only problem is i have an earth/dark and its a bit of a beast and fade let me skip the ugliest epic armr in the game (i went earth mastery on both) whereas with /marine i feel kind of forced to take and run it. I do like the look of @Maelwysbuild its a lot cleaner than mine, i'll throw it on and you'll be able to see where i was going. If it takes procs it got procs. I always proc out Volcanic , i didn't have slots for animate stone (or shifting tides/barrier reef) so they got minimal.

EARTH MARINE - Controller (Earth Control - Marine Affinity).mbd

[Maelwys]

FWIW, I found this summary by Carnifax from a few years ago regarding testing Damage Procs in Volcanic Gasses.

The TL;DR is that Hold Procs are worth it providing the spot you place VG contains a decent number of mobs for a good portion of the 60s duration.
(The fact that its effect keeps reapplying and can affect NEW mobs is another reason that I consider it to be one of the only AoE holds worth a spit!)
 

Also I prodded at my previous build a smidge to give better AoE damage output: zController - Earth - Marine.mbd
Swap Stalagmite slotting around depending on whether you lean towards damage or global recharge + disorient duration.


(although as before; the only things that see much benefit from containment will be Fossilize and Poisonous Ray unless you swap Epics to Earth or Ice for more damage but less -res)
 

Edited December 17, 2024 by Maelwys

[Meknomancer]

The problem with the troller aoe holds is they take so long to recharge so i tend to skip them. But if you can get enough force feedbacks into the build...thats a different story. On the earth/dark volcanic is pretty much available every mob rather than every 3 mobs.

[Onlyasandwich]

39 minutes ago, Meknomancer said:

troller aoe holds

I typically take them because:

• Hold sets are really nice (4 slot Basilisk if anything).
• They provide a really nice backup plan if your primary controls aren't cutting it. Good for big adds, or situations where the team is just moving super fast.

[Xandyr]

7 hours ago, Maelwys said:

Earth is still a very solid set.
Stone Cages + Stalagmites and Earthquake + Quicksand give you a lot of AoE CC ability.
Adding Tidepool and Whitecap from Marine almost gets ridiculous.

Volcanic Gasses is one of the better AoE holds (IMO most are trash) because it's coded very strangely - instead of one long-duration effect or a single pseudopet; it spawns several pseudopets over a 50s duration, most of which apply a Hold effect rather than damage (the only one that deals direct damage or inherits damage enhancements is the initial Pets_Volcanicgas pseudopet). So it procs a little better than most pseudopet powers... especially with procs from Hold Sets... but I'd still not rely on it as a regular source of AoE damage output.

The Pet benefits greatly from Toroidal Bubble - throw the two +10% Pet Damage Resistance globals into the mix and they can reach the 90% hardcap to everything. Alongside the +MaxHP and healing they become very solid and can comfortably tank most tough single-targets (AVs/GMs/etc) in the game.
Don't bother with a KB>KD proc (its Hurl already inflicts KD). Soulbound is OK if you can spare the slots for it, but keeping Shifting Tides up will be more important.

Last I poked at an Earth/Marine (back in July from the looks of it) I came up with the below, although I've not personally played it except on Brainstorm. You could easily move a slot from Brine to Animate Stone for the Soulbound proc:
zController - Earth - Marine.mbd
Assuming you're keeping Barrier up it'll have Softcapped S/L Defense and hardcapped Fire/Cold Resistance; plus a <68s cycle on Power of the Depths.

It's also worth pointing out that /Marine is one of the few Controller builds that I'd try to take a patron pet on (and possibly veer towards Core instead of Radial Lore!) since both Shifting Tides and PoTD play so nicely with them; and you can shore up their mitigation drastically (Barrier Reef + Maneuvers + Aura IOs is ~27.7% Def to all; throw in Barrier Destiny and/or Support Hybrid and that's softcap territory. Toroidal Bubble + Aura IOs = ~40% Res to all; on top of Barrier and any inherent resistances like Stony's. Then there's the +MaxHP from PoTD and all the Healing/Regeneration...) 
 

Excellent advice! Appreciate it!

[Meknomancer]

7 hours ago, Onlyasandwich said:

I typically take them because:

• Hold sets are really nice (4 slot Basilisk if anything).
• They provide a really nice backup plan if your primary controls aren't cutting it. Good for big adds, or situations where the team is just moving super fast.

 

My back up plan involves running away or dying and providing the team with veng bait. My primary control is to kill stuff before it kills me, doesn't always work but it is fun.

[tidge]

On my Earth Controller I ended up 6-slotting Will of the Controller in Volcanic Gasses, From memory I found the power to be a poor one to use %damage pieces in... Stone Cages and Stalagmites ended up being better for that trick.

 

On 12/17/2024 at 3:02 PM, Meknomancer said:

The problem with the troller aoe holds is they take so long to recharge so i tend to skip them. But if you can get enough force feedbacks into the build...thats a different story. On the earth/dark volcanic is pretty much available every mob rather than every 3 mobs.

 

I agree that the recharge times for the Controller AoE 'nukes' are too long to bother with trying for %damage. I never skip them, because they offer utility and an opportunity for getting enhancement set bonuses; I agree that performance (including lack of up-time) definitely dampens my enthusiasm for them.

[Meknomancer]

5 hours ago, tidge said:

On my Earth Controller I ended up 6-slotting Will of the Controller in Volcanic Gasses, From memory I found the power to be a poor one to use %damage pieces in... Stone Cages and Stalagmites ended up being better for that trick.

 

 

I agree that the recharge times for the Controller AoE 'nukes' are too long to bother with trying for %damage. I never skip them, because they offer utility and an opportunity for getting enhancement set bonuses; I agree that performance (including lack of up-time) definitely dampens my enthusiasm for them.

 

I try to give myself another option when i can, one that will allow me to take something more useful. An epic aoe/enflame/wall of force. Any of those 3 will take a ton of procs, wall of force is good soft control and can take an ff+recharge and tends to be way more useful at keeping entire mobs on their backs over an aoe hold. More often than not i will 5 slot the will of the controller set and toss the chance for damage into the st hold or something that i'm firing off regularly. Solo damage isn't an issue but in teams i don't have time to wait for stuff to recharge and players are moving so fast you want to contribute as much as possible, especially when teams speed run and feel like they are carrying you just because your playing a troller.

[tidge]

54 minutes ago, Meknomancer said:

 

I try to give myself another option when i can, one that will allow me to take something more useful. An epic aoe/enflame/wall of force. Any of those 3 will take a ton of procs, wall of force is good soft control and can take an ff+recharge and tends to be way more useful at keeping entire mobs on their backs over an aoe hold.

 

As an aside: I groan about folks calling for some diminishment of %procs... often it is one or two players arguing over which melee DPS AT can clear a +4x8 map (fractions of a minute) faster than some other melee DPS AT, with no consideration for how far behind the curve (in terms of clearing similar content) an AT like Controller would be.

 

Another aside: At some point I think the (mostly Live) devs took a healthy respect for control (of critters) and turned it into a full-on paranoia. If not for %damage, I'd find Controllers to be pretty boring to play.

[Riverdusk]

On 12/26/2024 at 4:01 PM, tidge said:

 

Another aside: At some point I think the (mostly Live) devs took a healthy respect for control (of critters) and turned it into a full-on paranoia. If not for %damage, I'd find Controllers to be pretty boring to play.

 

Definitely.  That they greatly lowered the recharge time of nukes (and got rid of all their penalties) and yet still left aoe holds nerfed to oblivion still annoys me to this day.  It's okay to kill everything fast, but don't you dare hold them!

[tidge]

3 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

 

Definitely.  That they greatly lowered the recharge time of nukes (and got rid of all their penalties) and yet still left aoe holds nerfed to oblivion still annoys me to this day.  It's okay to kill everything fast, but don't you dare hold them!

 

Ignoring the elephant-in-the-room that is the method the game gives rewards (Inf, XP, drops) for defeating critters, Blasters have a significant number of advantages over Controllers, including:

• Blasters can still fight while controlled.
• Blasters have generally better base Accuracies across primary/secondary than Control powers (especially AoE)
• Blasters' attacks are (for most primary/secondary) the same type of damage whereas Controller's typically only get a pair of same-type controls (for most primary/secondary) for "stacking"... e.g. a single-target Immobilize/Hold and an AoE Immobilize/Hold.
• It is far more common across all content to have enemies that effectively cannot be controlled (by certain controls) than it is for enemies to completely ignore/regenerate from damage taken from attacks.

If we further consider IO enhancement sets, because of the nature of ATOs, most Winters, most PVP and most Purples... Blasters (with more attacks) end up with more options for building for set bonuses than an AT like a Controller. I'll grant that this point is "in my experience", and that "mileage may vary"... but some of those sets can end up giving very healthy global Defense bonuses. I'm aware that some of the control sets have some options for global defense, but for Control types they've got far fewer powers to opt to place their ATOs, whereas Blasters typically have powers in both their Primary and Secondary... I realize this is a somewhat subjective argument, however I think of it often whenever someone tries to invoke an "aprocalypse", as the non %proc choices already favor specific ATs over others.