How much Acc & To Hit is enough

[shortguy on indom]

 

On 1/7/2025 at 3:29 AM, Maelwys said:

Whilst all Thermometers are used for measuring temperature; it's probably a good idea to understand how everyone else is using it. Otherwise you may be left with a funny taste in your mouth. I suspect @Mack008 could be onto something in their above post, so it might be a good idea to double check some of your assumptions.

• ?

[shortguy on indom]

• THIS IS THE FORMULA FOR SPREADSHEET OF THE 'REGULAR' WAY TO FIND 5-95% CHANCE TO HIT.  (as per wiki and prior links in this thread).
• CAN BE PLUGGED INTO A SPREADSHEET WITH SOME VALUES TO FIND WHAT IS NEEDED.
•  
• XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

• OTHER THINGS ARE THE AMOUNT OF ACCURACY ENHANCEMENTS AND GLOBAL ACCURACY WHICH IS NEEDED FOR 95% HIT CHANCE FOR A POWER OF 1.0 INHERENT ACCURACY.
• MORE TO COME.

 

Edited Thursday at 03:27 PM by shortguy on indom
typed in formula which was too small to see.

[shortguy on indom]

• IT IS ADVANTAGEOUS TO USE THE REGULAR WAY TO FIND HITCHANCE.
• THE ACCURACY VALUES IN THE ABOVE CHARTS WILL NOT CORRELATE WITH MIDS VALUES DUE TO:
  • WRITING ACCURACY, BUT MEANING CHANCETOHIT
  • MR NOT CALCULATING ACCMOD AT ALL.
• ACCMOD * 5% = THE MINIMUM HIT CHANCE.
• MORE ACCURACY ENHANCE/GLOBALS = HIGHER MINIMUM HITCHANCE.  ABOUT 10-12% CAN BE HAD .

SORRY FORMULA WAS SHRUNK DOWN WHEN POSTED, WILL TYPE IT OUT.

[Maelwys]

8 hours ago, shortguy on indom said:

• THE ACCURACY VALUES IN THE ABOVE CHARTS WILL NOT CORRELATE WITH MIDS VALUES

They do, actually.

"+0 needs 26% acc enhancement"



"+1 needs 46% acc enhancement"


"+2 needs 69% acc enhancement"


"+3 needs 97% acc enhancement"



Note that in each of these cases, the estimated Final Hit Chance calculated by Mids (labelled as "Accuracy" on the bottom left) is just under 95%.

Whilst there is a slight discrepancy here (it's not quite reaching the 95% clamping threshold due to truncating/rounding errors; which I'll get to in a minute!) this is close enough to show that "on paper" Mids is pretty much matching up with your expectations.



And when we factor in the Kismet?

"+3 needs 75% acc enhancement"


Once again; Mids is showing an estimated Final Hit Chance of just under 95%.

Now... let's check that slight discrepancy in the numbers between what your chart predicts and what Mids' estimates.
As shown above, with 75% Accuracy and a Kismet Mids' is estimating a 94.5% Final Hit Chance vs +3s; whereas your chart predicts a capped Hit Chance (95%)
So what is the actual Hit Chance observed in the game itself?






TL;DR: Mids still appears to me to be giving accurate figures; and they mostly match up with what your chart is predicting.
Your chart's listed numbers are roughly right; but it seems to be slightly underestimating the required accuracy slotting (likely due to rounding/truncation)

  

8 hours ago, shortguy on indom said:

• MORE ACCURACY ENHANCE/GLOBALS = HIGHER MINIMUM HITCHANCE.  ABOUT 10-12% CAN BE HAD .

This is true; and it's definitely worth folk remembering that this doesn't just apply to "mobs attacking players" (e.g. pushing your defence to the clouds won't mean that mobs will always have a 5% chance to hit you - because higher level/rank foes and specific higher-inherent-accuracy attacks will end up with a higher "floor")

Whilst it's rare that player HitChance against PVE enemies ever gets completely floored; "overslotting" accuracy does indeed have occasional benefits.

That said... I honestly can't remember the last time I was in a situation where I couldn't get away with countering incoming ToHit Debuffs (via toggling on Focussed Accuracy; etc) or simply powering through the issue by popping a yellow Insp or triggering a temporary Tohit buff (Aim, Gaussian Proc in Build Up; Geas of the Kind Ones accolade, etc).

 

Edited January 15 by Maelwys

[shortguy on indom]

• MINE IS JUST AN ESTIMATE, SAME AS MIDS IS JUST AN ESTIMATE.  I DO NOT USE MIDS AS A YARDSTICK.  I JUST USE IT FOR A SCREENSHOT OF MY CHOSEN POWERS IS ALL.
• IF YOU NEED ACCURACY TO THE HUNDREDTH...MY CHART IS NOT FOR YOU. 
• THERE ARE MANY OTHER IN GAME FACTORS TO CONSIDER WHICH ARE NOT ACCOUNTED FOR HERE.
• MADE MANY GRAPHS TO SHOW EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING, BUT FAR TOO MANY POINTS TO ZOOM IN ON:  BUT ULTIMATELY SCRAPPED THIS IDEA.
• EXAMPLE BELOW, PLEASE NOTE:  THE CURVE IS THE 95% CHANCE TO HIT.  ANYTHING ABOVE IT IS ALSO 95% CHANCE TO HIT.  BELOW CURVE IS LESS THAN 95% CHANCE.  IGNORE THE TITLE "BETWEEN 5% AND."  THIS IS SOLELY A 95% CURVE.
• AS ENEMY LEVEL GOES HIGHER, OTHER CURVES ARE SIMILAR, BUT ALSO SHIFTED HIGHER.  SO, THE MINIMUM CHANCE TO HIT VARIES AS MENTIONED IN PREVIOUS POST AND IS NOT FIXED AT 5%.
• THE TREND LINE AND MEDIAN VALUE LINE INTERSECTION SHOW ONE OF THE MOST EFFICIENT WAYS TO GET TO 95% FOR THIS PARTICULAR ENEMY LEVEL.
•  

Edited Thursday at 03:25 PM by shortguy on indom
not needed

[shortguy on indom]

47 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

TL;DR: Mids still appears to me to be giving accurate figures; and they mostly match up with what your chart is predicting.
Your chart's listed numbers are roughly right; but it seems to be slightly underestimating the required accuracy slotting (likely due to rounding/truncation)
 

• MINE SHOWS WHAT MIDS DOES NOT.
• MINE SHOWS THE MINIMUM OF WHAT IS NEEDED TO GET TO 95%
• MIDS JUST SHOWS WHAT YOU HAVE, SO YOU NEED TO GUESS AND GUESS, SLOTTING AND SLOTTING TO GET TO 95%.

[Maelwys]

55 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

• MINE IS JUST AN ESTIMATE, SAME AS MIDS IS JUST AN ESTIMATE.  I DO NOT USE MIDS AS A YARDSTICK.  I JUST USE IT FOR A SCREENSHOT OF MY CHOSEN POWERS IS ALL.
• IF YOU NEED ACCURACY TO THE HUNDREDTH...MY CHART IS NOT FOR YOU. 

Fair enough.
   

I think for the purposes of most people; Mids is going to be a pretty good yardstick for accuracy estimation (given that you can set the target enemy level and active buffs with a few clicks, and the resulting estimate *IS* being demonstrably accurate to within a few hundredths of a percent).

However there are definite shortcomings. As an example; I've got an active request open with the Mids Devs to get the BaseHitChance override setting working again so that it's easier to display + predict the effects of specific static enemy Defence Buffs such as you encounter on 4 star content etc. (In Mids Reborn this setting is currently hidden under Options --> Advanced --> Homecoming Database Menu --> Server Data Editor --> Base Values; and accessing that menu requires you to first toggle DB-edit mode on via CTRL+SHIFT+ALT+A... unfortunately at present if you change the listed base value to something different it does not actually do anything!)
 

50 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

• MIDS JUST SHOWS WHAT YOU HAVE, SO YOU NEED TO GUESS AND GUESS, SLOTTING AND SLOTTING TO GET TO 95%.

It does indeed.

And that is, in fact, the main draw of using Mids.

Being able to observe the effects of tweaking enhancement values and toggling/untoggling specific powers on your totals (including Hit Chance) in realtime is extremely valuable whenever you're trying to squeeze more performance out of your build. 

And since Mids' does not automatically clamp its Hit Chance estimations at 95%; it allows its users to see just how much each of their attacks are currently "overshooting the mark" and tweak things accordingly ("OK, Mids is showing 98.2% for this power which means it's a smidge over the 95% Hit Rate softcap... so I might be able to swap that Acc/Dam HO for this Acc/Dam Set IO and gain a set bonus whilst still remaining capped - hurrah; it worked!")

However if all someone is looking for is a rough estimate of what ballpark of accuracy to aim for ("75-ish"); then taking a quick glance at a graph might well be good enough + is certainly a lot less time consuming. So it'll depend on the use case. I'm not downplaying the usefulness of tables/charts by any stretch (I certainly compile enough of the bloody things in my dayjob); just highlighting that you may want to round the listed accuracy requirement figures in your earlier chart *UP* in order to avoid any confusion! 👍
 

Edited January 15 by Maelwys

[shortguy on indom]

• IN THE GAME YOUR HITROLL IS CONTROLLED BY CHANCE, SO THERE IS REALLY NO NEED TO ROUND ANYTHING UP OR DOWN.   MINE AND MIDS IS JUST AN ESTIMATE OF YOUR CHANCE.
• IT IS VERY VALUABLE TO USE MORE ACCURACY IN THE GAME BECAUSE IT HELPS YOUR CHANCE OF MISSING ON THE LOW-END TO DECREASED BY 1/2.

 

• THIS CHART IS SHOWING TACTIC @10% + KISMET 6% + THE OTHER ACC.
• WAS GOING TO SHOW HM STUFF, BUT I LIKE READING ABOUT THE EFFICIENCIES OF:  3 CORRS, 1 SHOVEL, KITCHEEN SINK AND A SMALL DOG, OR I'M NOT RUNNING IT.
• I KID I KID.
• REFER TO SPREADSHEET FORMULA ABOVE, IT CANNOT BE DERIVED W/MIDS.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 03:25 PM by shortguy on indom
not needed

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, shortguy on indom said:

• IN THE GAME YOUR HITROLL IS CONTROLLED BY CHANCE, SO THERE IS REALLY NO NEED TO ROUND ANYTHING UP OR DOWN.

 

• There is whenever your chart is literally titled "Total of Accuracy Enhancements + Acc Set Bonuses needed to get 95% ChanceToHit" and yet a character who attains the Accuracy values listed within it will not in fact achieve a 95% ChanceToHit!

I double-checked the results of several of the lines on that chart; and none of them actually attain a 95% Hit Chance or above; they all fall short by up to half a percent.

For example: versus unbuffed +3 enemies a Kismet plus 75.0% acc slotting will only result in a Hit Chance of 94.5%, you actually need >75.9% acc slotting (which is not a negligible difference if you're trying to fine-tune various enhancement combinations!) in order to hit the 95% threshold. So if you're using 0 decimal places then that figure should be rounded *UP* to 76% instead of being truncated/rounded down to 75%.

It may seem pedantic to quibble over a 0.5% difference in Hit Rate; and doubtless in most cases 94.5% Hit Rate is going to be "good enough"... but your target audience here would seem to be those few CoH players who are reading a forum post about Accuracy and ToHit and have a high enough tolerance for boredom and bullshit to have made it 3+ pages in. I very much suspect that anyone who has taken that much interest in this topic is going to care about the accuracy of their accuracy numbers (ha!) and whether their character is actually reaching this very well-known and established performance threshold or falling a little bit short. (Never mind the fact that there are still some maverick builders out there who care so much about a few hundredths of a percent that they'll ignore ED and six-slot Hasten...)

I'd also question the wisdom in trying to maintain a separate static chart for "Tactics" whenever the value of its ToHit buffs (even unslotted!) vary drastically depending on the AT's Ranged_Buff_ToHit modifier - Brutes/Scrappers/Stalkers will get 7.0%, Dominators/Masterminds will get 7.5%, EATs will get 9.0%, Tankers/Blasters/Controllers/Corruptors/Sentinels/VEATs will get 10%, Defenders will get 12.5%... and slotting can be anything from a full Gaussians set to a single Cyto HO in the base slot! Not saying it's impossible, just that all those possible variables would seem to suggest a classic use case for an accurate character builder utility.

 

Edited January 15 by Maelwys

[shortguy on indom]

• SO HERE WE ARE.  THE 0.01 DIGIT MAY BE OFF BY +/- 0.005
• SO BASICALLY A 10,000 TO 1 CHANCE THAT MINE IS WRONG UP OR DOWN ON A RANDOMIZED VARIABLE CHANCE HITROLL WHICH IS BUILT INTO THE GAME THAT IS EXACTLY 0.005% AWAY FROM 95%.
• TACTICS TOHIT BUFF CAN BE ANYWHERE BETWEEN 7.5% AND ALMOST 20%... AND VARIES BY ARCHETYPE AND ENHANCEMENT SLOTTING....SO I CHOOSE 10% VALUE BECAUSE UNBUFFED AVERAGE ARCHETYPE TACTICS VALUE WAS 9.3333.  
• THIS IS SERIOUSLY AN ISSUE?... SHOULD I HAVE POSTED EVERY ITTERATION OF THIS HERE?.
• MY COMPUTATIONS JUST DO NOT INCLUDE ENEMY DEFENSE. WHILE SLIGHT, EVERY MR CALC DOES NOT INCLUDE THEM.  WHY BECAUSE ITS VARIABLE AND ITS AN ESTIMATE.
• I'M OVER IT AT THIS POINT.  I AM NOT CHANGING THE CHARTS OR ADDING ANY MARGIN OF ERROR CALCS AND THE LIKE FORAN ESTIMATE.
   

 

 

[shortguy on indom]

• WILL KEEP MY ATTACHMENTS AND COPY/PASTE SPREADSHEET FORMULA ON THIS THREAD FOR THE NEXT FEW DAYS.
• POSTED HERE TO HELP SOME FOLKS.   SEEMS OPPOSITE EFFECT IS HAPPENING.
• MORE DIFFICULT FOR ME TO POST SOMETHING THESE DAYS.  NO WORRIES.