Spines ST damage easy fix

[Funkenstein]

Hello,

 

From long time now, Spines melee is severly lacking in Single Damage.

An easy fix to this could be to reduce the casting time of Impale, like the dominator version from 2.43 to 1.43 sec.

It'll make this signature power lots more appealing.

 

Not a huge tweak to do, but a big leap for this historical set.

 

Thanks

[macskull]

While buffing Spines really would be as simple as giving it the faster animations the other versions get, the powers team has said that Spines isn’t going to be getting any of the animation time improvements that the Dominator and Blaster versions got. I have to assume it’s because Spines was a popular farming set and they’re reluctant to buff it, even though it hasn’t been popular in that application for years and really struggles outside of that environment.

[Videra]

On 1/5/2025 at 8:33 AM, Funkenstein said:

Hello,

 

From long time now, Spines melee is severly lacking in Single Damage.

An easy fix to this could be to reduce the casting time of Impale, like the dominator version from 2.43 to 1.43 sec.

It'll make this signature power lots more appealing.

 

Not a huge tweak to do, but a big leap for this historical set.

 

Thanks

 

Well, you see, we can't buff spines because that would incidentally buff farmers. Sorry gamer, Spines will never be buffed - it would be bad for the game! (I am (mostly) not being ironic, there have been walls upon walls of discussion about this, it ain't happening.)

[biostem]

Isn't spines whole schtick, besides the less resisted toxic damage, that it has a lot of AoEs?  Seems kind of contrary to that, to *also* give it powerful ST attacks.  Compare spines to energy aura, which barely has 2 AoEs, (one being a cone).

[ScarySai]

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=dominator_assault.thorny_assault.impale&at=dominator

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_melee.quills.impale&at=scrapper

 

It's an easy fix, and there's no real justification for not making the scrapper one as good as the dom one that isn't complete bullshit.

 

Whether the 'concern' is farmers, or an irrelevant excuse like "they aren't the same power technically" doesn't really serve anyone.

 

@macskull I don't think it's strictly that, because they've used similar broken logic when it came to refusing to buff hurl/hurl boulder to be on par with the dom version too. Nobody is farming with stone melee.

Edited January 6 by ScarySai

[PoptartsNinja]

Spines is toxic and lethal, two of the most heavily resisted damage types in the endgame. And the toxic damage isn't especially high since it was introduced before 'toxic' was actually a damage type.

I also don't really understand the farmer hate. They are the 'supply' side of the AH, and they supply enough to keep AH prices reasonably priced. You can absolutely see what happens to AH prices when farmers stop farming AE when everyone's TOT farming during October. The enhancement supply drops and prices double until mid-November.

If you're considering Spines from the perspective of AFK farming, improving the quality-of-life of a single single target attack isn't going to change Spines' farm performance in any significant way because the AFK farmer isn't using any single target attacks. If you're considering from the perspective of active farming... active farmers are playing the game so I don't really see a problem there either.

 

Improving Spines might encourage non-farmers to take Spines more often, too.

Edited January 6 by PoptartsNinja

[macskull]

21 minutes ago, biostem said:

Isn't spines whole schtick, besides the less resisted toxic damage, that it has a lot of AoEs?

Someone else already addressed the damage type thing, but excluding the damage aura Spines has the same amount of AoE attacks as several other sets - one PBAoE and two cones. Spines’ only real gimmick is that one of those cones is ranged, but ranged AoE attacks in melee sets aren’t nearly as rare as they used to be.

[biostem]

6 minutes ago, macskull said:

excluding the damage aura

That's pretty big, though, and since it's paired with an armor set, that's easily 2 damage auras, and IIRC the few tests I ran w/ the combat tracker back in the day, they contribute a significant part to the overall damage dealt.  It still has more ways of delivering damage to multiple enemies than other melee sets, and also applies debuffs with nearly every attack.  I still don't see it as underperforming...

[macskull]

10 minutes ago, biostem said:

I still don't see it as underperforming...

Damage auras matter significantly more in a farming scenario since you’re essentially always target saturated. Their actual impact is much smaller in normal gameplay.

 

The problem with Spines is twofold:

1. Its single target damage is pretty anemic, with the heavy hitters having long animation times. No, “it has good AoE so it is fine if it has bad single target” isn’t a good argument when sets like Fire Blast, Battle Axe, Titan Weapons, and Assault Rifle exist. This isn’t 2008, sets can simply be decent in multiple areas.
2. Spine Burst’s cast time is way too long. The Blaster version is something like twice as fast - there’s no reason the same change can’t be made for the Spines and Thorny Assault versions.

[Videra]

44 minutes ago, PoptartsNinja said:

Spines is toxic and lethal, two of the most heavily resisted damage types in the endgame. And the toxic damage isn't especially high since it was introduced before 'toxic' was actually a damage type.

I also don't really understand the farmer hate. They are the 'supply' side of the AH, and they supply enough to keep AH prices reasonably priced. You can absolutely see what happens to AH prices when farmers stop farming AE when everyone's TOT farming during October. The enhancement supply drops and prices double until mid-November.

If you're considering Spines from the perspective of AFK farming, improving the quality-of-life of a single single target attack isn't going to change Spines' farm performance in any significant way because the AFK farmer isn't using any single target attacks. If you're considering from the perspective of active farming... active farmers are playing the game so I don't really see a problem there either.

 

Improving Spines might encourage non-farmers to take Spines more often, too.

 

Good luck convincing the guys at the wheel of that. That was the point of what I posted. (They have no good reason, but Spines will remain doodoo, c'est la vie.)

[biostem]

18 minutes ago, macskull said:

Damage auras matter significantly more in a farming scenario since you’re essentially always target saturated. Their actual impact is much smaller in normal gameplay.

Well, sure - against fewer than, say, 3 opponents, any AoE will be a waste.  That being said, it is, like many things, a tradeoff - worse ST performance in exchange for better AoEs.  I don't dispute the general sentiment that there are many attacks, (not just in spines), that should have their animations shortened.  That being said, perhaps focus on a ST set if you want better ST performance, instead of trying to turn an AoE set into one...

[FupDup]

Look, there's a difference between giving Spines an ST damage buff and making it rival proper ST-focused sets. Basically, there's a certain minimum threshold for ST for a set to not feel awful and Spines falls below that level. Nudging its ST upward doesn't mean it's gonna out-DPS something like Battle Axe for ST. 

[Videra]

2 minutes ago, FupDup said:

Look, there's a difference between giving Spines an ST damage buff and making it rival proper ST-focused sets. Basically, there's a certain minimum threshold for ST for a set to not feel awful and Spines falls below that level. Nudging its ST upward doesn't mean it's gonna out-DPS something like Battle Axe for ST. 

 

Shh. They consider Battle Axe a 'failure' on account of being 'too strong', don't remind them!

Edited January 6 by Videra

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

they contribute a significant part to the overall damage dealt.

 

And? You're saying this like spines is some top tier set that would break the game if it's main ST ability wasn't utterly gimped by an atrocious cast.

[biostem]

9 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

And? You're saying this like spines is some top tier set that would break the game if it's main ST ability wasn't utterly gimped by an atrocious cast.

Not at all;  As I've said multiple times already, spines trades ST damage for AoE.  Nothing more, nothing less.

[ScarySai]

Yet, martial, tw, SS, savage, claws, and axe don't make any such trade, and sets like db and katana are well rounded despite an ST focus.

[FupDup]

Eh, Martial isn't a good example here because it has just 1 ST attack (or literally zero on a Stalker) that just so happens to benefit heavily from Gauntlet. If taken on a non-Tank, and not paired with an AOE-boosting armor like Rad or Bio, it most definitely makes a trade of sacrificing AOE.

 

Like, if one was to make an MA/SR Scrapper or something, its AOE would be pretty low. 

Edited January 7 by FupDup

[Videra]

14 minutes ago, biostem said:

Not at all;  As I've said multiple times already, spines trades ST damage for AoE.  Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Have you heard of:

Super Strength, Savage Melee, Claws Melee, Axe, Dual Blades and Katana?

What about Titan Weapons?

Why does Spines have to have direly subpar ST damage in exchange for . . . still realistically not that high AOE damage that is equal to or slightly above some other sets at best?

[biostem]

Just now, Videra said:

Super Strength

Only when rage is on, and there's a crash associated with that, not to mention that it has an AoE that does NO damage.

 

1 minute ago, Videra said:

Savage Melee

Lower burst damage and there's there 'exhausted mechanic".

 

1 minute ago, Videra said:

Claws Melee

No build-up, no exotic damage type.  Trades burst damage for sustained damage.

 

4 minutes ago, Videra said:

Axe

 

4 minutes ago, Videra said:

Katana

2 AoEs vs spines' 4.

 

5 minutes ago, Videra said:

Dual Blades

3 AoEs vs Spines' 4, with 1000 cuts having a fairly long animation in its own right, and all lethal damage. 

[ScarySai]

15 minutes ago, biostem said:

not to mention that it has an AoE that does NO damage.

...

 

15 minutes ago, biostem said:

Lower burst damage and there's there 'exhausted mechanic".

 

Strong burst, actually. The build up completely bypasses exhaustion, and can be ignored entirely with proper stack management.

16 minutes ago, biostem said:

No build-up, no exotic damage type.  Trades burst damage for sustained damage.

 

Follow up is better than build up. It's sustain is better than a lot of sets due to having a very smooth aoe chain, but one cycle is still bursty.

18 minutes ago, biostem said:

2 AoEs vs spines' 4.

 

Four mediocre aoes vs two good ones. 

[biostem]

9 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Follow up is better than build up. It's sustain is better than a lot of sets due to having a very smooth aoe chain, but one cycle is still bursty.

Not if you're trying to open up with a heavy attack, especially if you're trying to take out some particularly tough or dangerous enemies.

 

9 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Four mediocre aoes vs two good ones. 

In YOUR opinion, but my point still stands; 4 > 2.

 

Quote

Strong burst, actually. The build up completely bypasses exhaustion, and can be ignored entirely with proper stack management.

 

So you're admitting that savage requires more thought/planning/steps to utilize than spines, which is another point in its favor.

Edited January 7 by biostem

[macskull]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

2 AoEs vs spines' 4.

Katana, Claws, Savage Melee, Staff Fighting, Dual Blades, Broadsword, Battle Axe, War Mace, and Tanker Fiery Melee all have three AoEs, which is the same number Spines has if you don't count the damage aura - and again, you shouldn't count it. Dark Melee, Elec Melee, and Titan Weapons have four AoEs (and come to think of it, Elec Melee was recently on the receiving end of some buffs to improve its single-target output). Rad Melee only has two at face value (again ignoring the damage aura) but realistically has six when you factor in contaminated splash damage.

 

1 hour ago, biostem said:

no exotic damage type

As already stated, dealing toxic damage is not generally considered that large of a benefit since it is the most widely resisted damage type on average.

[ScarySai]

2 hours ago, biostem said:

So you're admitting that savage requires more thought/planning/steps to utilize than spines, which is another point in its favor.

 

Savage does better aoe than spines, lol.

[twozerofoxtrot]

It's a little bizarre to attempt to refute the primacy of SS and Sav over Spines when there are various posts of test data showing objectively where they stand in comparison with each other across a range of scenarios. 

 

They're not equal. 

 

It's okay that they're not equal. 

 

It's also okay to lower the animation time on a single power in an underplayed set for the purpose of bringing it into line with other sets.

[Videra]

9 hours ago, ScarySai said:

 

Savage does better aoe than spines, lol.

 

Bro's just arguing to argue at this point, there's a metric ton of objective data that's easily accessible which proves his point shrimply wrong. There's also no such thing as 'An AOE-Focused Set', besides. Nor am I sure why you would even want that, given that everyone can get Judgements and make a proposed AOE Set's ST handicap meaningless.

Edited January 7 by Videra