Null da Gull Knockback

[Stormwalker]

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

See, the thing for me is, knockback is kind of a definitive aspect of fights in comic books, especially when the characters are super strong.  The problem with knockback in the game is that knocking a foe away is actually counterproductive for most super strong characters, since they also have defensive toggles that improve defenses depending on how many enemies are in melee range.  This makes knockback undesirable in most cases.

 

What I would like to see is for knockback to be made USEFUL.  The simplest method is to have it do some damage.  More knockback should do more damage.  I mean, if I fall down where I am, I'll say ouch.  If I fall down after flying 30 feet through the air, I'm going to say more than that, it's going to hurt a lot more.

 

I mean, I'd be totally in favor of slamming enemies into walls doing additional damage.

[BasiliskXVIII]

On 1/9/2025 at 10:15 AM, ZacKing said:

I just disagree fundamentally with how KB is implemented in that it doesn't take into consideration how it affects team play.  Also, being worried about people with KB getting "ostracized" into being forced to turn on a toggle doesn't make much sense, given that people are already "ostracized" for any number of reasons for things like Group Fly, Speed Boost, Sonic Resonance, brightly colored powers, Fold Space etc.

 

It also feels just plain weird to say "well, what if people start ostracizing players with KB powers not turning them off," when there's a whole dang thread that's been kicking around the top of the general forum since the change of the WST this week that is about, among other things, how intolerably awful that KB makes the Synapse TF.

[Stormwalker]

30 minutes ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

 

It also feels just plain weird to say "well, what if people start ostracizing players with KB powers not turning them off," when there's a whole dang thread that's been kicking around the top of the general forum since the change of the WST this week that is about, among other things, how intolerably awful that KB makes the Synapse TF.

 

KB only makes a TF awful if the player doesn't make the effort to manage it properly.  While I've had plenty of players gripe when I joined a team on an energy blaster, the complaints have always stopped once the team got rolling, because I know what I'm doing.

 

My rules of KB are very simple:

1. I am careful not to knock back enemies that melee characters are currently targeting.

2. If I knock back a single target, then I'm claiming that target and I'm going to finish it off, so you don't need to worry about it.

3. When I use my AoE attacks, I will either 1) knock things into a corner where they will stay nicely herded, or 2). use Hover to turn my KB into KD.

4. If something aggro's on me and gets in my face, and if there isn't room for me to fly up out of its reach, yes, I'm going to Power Thrust it.  And then I'll finish it off, because see #2 above.

 

I've never had anyone complain to me about my KB in a team once the team actually got rolling.  The only complaints I've ever had were people who just assumed that any Energy Blaster would be a disaster for the party.

 

The Synapse TF isn't awful because of KB.  It's awful because of bad players and mostly because it's a bad TF to begin with.

[BasiliskXVIII]

11 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

KB only makes a TF awful if the player doesn't make the effort to manage it properly.  While I've had plenty of players gripe when I joined a team on an energy blaster, the complaints have always stopped once the team got rolling, because I know what I'm doing.

 

My rules of KB are very simple:

1. I am careful not to knock back enemies that melee characters are currently targeting.

2. If I knock back a single target, then I'm claiming that target and I'm going to finish it off, so you don't need to worry about it.

3. When I use my AoE attacks, I will either 1) knock things into a corner where they will stay nicely herded, or 2). use Hover to turn my KB into KD.

4. If something aggro's on me and gets in my face, and if there isn't room for me to fly up out of its reach, yes, I'm going to Power Thrust it.  And then I'll finish it off, because see #2 above.

 

I've never had anyone complain to me about my KB in a team once the team actually got rolling.  The only complaints I've ever had were people who just assumed that any Energy Blaster would be a disaster for the party.

 

The Synapse TF isn't awful because of KB.  It's awful because of bad players and mostly because it's a bad TF to begin with.

So, in short, what you're saying is that the default assumption is that you're going to be disruptive and that it's only after you prove otherwise that you are accepted. That's the crux of my point. I can't think of many other secondary effects which have that reaction, if any. No one's logging in with a Fire/ blaster and having people go, "oh hell, DoT? There goes the team." No one's expecting you to prove that you can leverage the -acc in dark blast properly or ruin the run. I love my Energy/Energy blaster, but he's solo-only because I'm not willing to be the scapegoat if something goes wrong.

 

And judging by the replies to the thread in question, KB very much is part of what makes Synapse awful. Clocks are weak to KB, so even effects that are normally knockdown send the little toys scattering, which frustrates and causes problems with location effects and exacerbates everything.

[Stormwalker]

16 minutes ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

And judging by the replies to the thread in question, KB very much is part of what makes Synapse awful. Clocks are weak to KB, so even effects that are normally knockdown send the little toys scattering, which frustrates and causes problems with location effects and exacerbates everything.

 

The Clockwork being weak to knockback is not really relevant to this topic given that the whole suggestion being discussed (a toggle to turn KB into KD) would not address that problem to begin with.

 

The fact that KB vulnerability turns KD into KB is a problem in and of itself, because it 1). creates KB where there wasn't any initially, and 2). removes most of the existing tooils for KB management (Hover still works, though.  For that matter, so does jump-jousting).

Edited Saturday at 01:32 AM by Stormwalker

[Super Atom]

You can't debate KB vs KD with anyone who likes KB because they inherently view it as a positive control effect. While people who don't view it was a negative control effect.

 

No matter how you try to explain away how good you are or how good you think you handle KB, It's never going to change anyone's mind and I'm sorry but "I'm so good i don't cause disruptions in team" isn't good enough. I don't care how good frank and bill are at the game, I care about the 100+ other knockback users who are not. If your entire argument is centered on "It's not me, it's everyone else causing the issue so there must not be one!" you have lost the debate before it ever began.

 

1 hour ago, Stormwalker said:

KB only makes a TF awful if the player doesn't make the effort to manage it properly. 

 

What you meant to type is "KB is awful in widespread practice, but sometimes very rarely a player can use it correctly".

 

That said, Knock back arguments are like talking about rage. Pointless.

[Stormwalker]

12 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

You can't debate KB vs KD with anyone who likes KB because they inherently view it as a positive control effect. While people who don't view it was a negative control effect.

 

No matter how you try to explain away how good you are or how good you think you handle KB, It's never going to change anyone's mind and I'm sorry but "I'm so good i don't cause disruptions in team" isn't good enough. I don't care how good frank and bill are at the game, I care about the 100+ other knockback users who are not. If your entire argument is centered on "It's not me, it's everyone else causing the issue so there must not be one!" you have lost the debate before it ever began.

 

 

What you meant to type is "KB is awful in widespread practice, but sometimes very rarely a player can use it correctly".

 

That said, Knock back arguments are like talking about rage. Pointless.

 

You state that you can't argue with people about Knockback, and then you make arguments about Knockback.

 

That's a little self-defeating, isn't it?

[Super Atom]

52 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

You state that you can't argue with people about Knockback, and then you make arguments about Knockback.

 

That's a little self-defeating, isn't it?

 

No. I said it was pointless, not that I'm above talking about it. I don't believe anything will ever be done about KB and Homecoming has never given me a reason to think otherwise. I will still gladly tell you how the unwashed masses ruin things though.

[Stormwalker]

38 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

No. I said it was pointless, not that I'm above talking about it. I don't believe anything will ever be done about KB and Homecoming has never given me a reason to think otherwise. I will still gladly tell you how the unwashed masses ruin things though.

 

Well, that was kind of what I was getting at... to say it's pointless, and then do it anyway is self-defeating.  Not that I haven't done exactly the same thing myself a few times, so it wasn't meant as a criticism.  Just an observation.  It'd be pretty darn hypocritical of me to actually criticize for that!

 

That said, I will quibble just a little bit with your take on the KB-defender's argument.

 

Personally, I think KB is a positive control in solo play and some small-group situations. 

 

In large group play, KB is a mixed bag.  There are situations where it has utility, especially in indoor missions.  There are also situations where it can be detrimental if not carefully managed.  The thing is, managing KB is... not really all that difficult.  Mostly it is about situational awareness.

[Super Atom]

6 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

The thing is, managing KB is... not really all that difficult.

 

 people considered Hitting 1 button and then hitting one of two other buttons to be "complex" when EM got changed. So rolling the dice on if people use KB correctly is really a terrible RNG minigame

 

13 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

Well, that was kind of what I was getting at... to say it's pointless, and then do it anyway is self-defeating.

 

I suppose so, but at least we're all wasting our time together. 😭

[Wavicle]

It's true that KB powers are some of the only abilities in the game that require actual player skill to use properly. That's too much for some folks, clearly, and the folks for whom it is too much are themselves too much for other folks, also clearly (and fairly, I think).

 

Probably direct attacks with AoE KB (Peacebringer AoEs, Energy Blast AoEs, but NOT Storm Summoning powers, Bonfire, etc) should be all made KD or KU by default. Single target abilities with KB should probably be mostly left as they are.

[Stormwalker]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

It's true that KB powers are some of the only abilities in the game that require actual player skill to use properly. That's too much for some folks, clearly, and the folks for whom it is too much are themselves too much for other folks, also clearly (and fairly, I think).

 

Probably direct attacks with AoE KB (Peacebringer AoEs, Energy Blast AoEs, but NOT Storm Summoning powers, Bonfire, etc) should be all made KD or KU by default. Single target abilities with KB should probably be mostly left as they are.

 

As I've already said, I'm all in favor of making Explosive Blast KU.  That would be cool, and it would make sense.

 

The melee AT Epic version of Torrent is already KD, so there is a precedent, but I would honestly prefer it not be changed.  Torrent is my go-to "push them all into the corner" power, and it's also the power I use when soloing if I get too much aggro (for example, if I run into a double spawn) and need to clear out some enemies to buy myself some time to thin them out a bit.  KD doesn't accomplish that.

 

Of course, if Explosive Blast got changed to KU, I could use it for that situation (KU accomplishes this significantly better than KD, since it keeps them off their feet longer). and then having Torrent be KD would bother me less.

 

[Wavicle]

16 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

As I've already said, I'm all in favor of making Explosive Blast KU.  That would be cool, and it would make sense.

 

The melee AT Epic version of Torrent is already KD, so there is a precedent, but I would honestly prefer it not be changed.  Torrent is my go-to "push them all into the corner" power, and it's also the power I use when soloing if I get too much aggro (for example, if I run into a double spawn) and need to clear out some enemies to buy myself some time to thin them out a bit.  KD doesn't accomplish that.

 

Of course, if Explosive Blast got changed to KU, I could use it for that situation (KU accomplishes this significantly better than KD, since it keeps them off their feet longer). and then having Torrent be KD would bother me less.

 

 

Maybe just Explosive and Nova would be enough? And if you really have a problem with Torrent, there's KB>KD.

[Stormwalker]

13 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

Maybe just Explosive and Nova would be enough? And if you really have a problem with Torrent, there's KB>KD.

 

Yeah, I slot Overwhelming Force in Nova (minus one of the minor pieces, in exchange for a Force Feedback proc), so I already convert Nova's KB -> KD in my build.

[Wavicle]

Now I wonder if a power like Nova could have some kind of tricky internal mechanics so that slotting it FOR Knockback could have an outsized effect, just in case someone wanted to get back to the classic "enemies go flying", Nova.

Because I understand what CP is talking about when they say KB "feels" powerful. It's true. Sending enemies flying with my Nova was definitely an early fun experience back in 2005. That should be available without too much effort, even if it was ever changed from the default.

Edited Saturday at 05:26 AM by Wavicle

[Stormwalker]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Now I wonder if a power like Nova could have some kind of tricky internal mechanics so that slotting it FOR Knockback could have an outsized effect, just in case someone wanted to get back to the classic "enemies go flying", Nova.

Because I understand what CP is talking about when they say KB "feels" powerful. It's true. Sending enemies flying with my Nova was definitely an early fun experience back in 2005. That should be available without too much effort, even if it was ever changed from the default.

 

Yeah, there's always a part of me that is tempted to remove my KB -> KD from Nova (especially since I realized that Nova is actually usable with Hover these days since it doesn't have the crash it had on Live, so I can still get KD that way), for exactly that reason.  That, and, conceptually, it's an outward blast and ought to do KB.  But I keep coming back to the fact that in team situations having Nova do KB really does make it very hard to use if the ceiling isn't high enough for Hover, and not having Nova avaialble just takes an *enormous* bite out of an Energy Blaster's offense.  So it's the one power in Energy Blast that I accept the necessity of KB -> KD in, even though I don't want to.

 

But it was pretty fun when soloing back in the old days to launch the spawn across the room in six different directions.

[Ultimo]

As with most things in the game, there are those who prefer things as they are, so making a change as significant as this needs to be optional.  I agree that it seems unfair to force someone to "waste" a slot for a knockback to knockdown enhancement, so making it an option on Null the Gull seems like a reasonable compromise.

[Wavicle]

I doubt they'd ever do it, but I'd prefer a toggle given to Energy Blast characters and Peacebringers. That way they can change it on the fly, and I don't really think anyone else needs it.

[Stormwalker]

21 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I doubt they'd ever do it, but I'd prefer a toggle given to Energy Blast characters and Peacebringers. That way they can change it on the fly, and I don't really think anyone else needs it.

 

That would be nice, in that we'd be able to switch back and forth situationally, but I'm pretty sure you're right that they'd never do it on account of them seeing it as too good.  Not that Energy Blast has ever been one of the top-performing blaster primaries, so I don't know why anyone ought to be worried about making it too good!

[Snarky]

7 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

The thing is, managing KB is... not really all that difficult.  Mostly it is about situational awareness.

driving a car in traffic is not that difficult.  now go look at any busy street.  watch the choices people make....

[Snarky]

6 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

Maybe just Explosive and Nova would be enough? And if you really have a problem with Torrent, there's KB>KD.

and a few of my beloved dark cones could use some simple Knockdown fixes...

[Snarky]

5 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I doubt they'd ever do it, but I'd prefer a toggle given to Energy Blast characters and Peacebringers. That way they can change it on the fly, and I don't really think anyone else needs it.

wrong...

[Ghost]

12 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

 

KB only makes a TF awful if the player doesn't make the effort to manage it properly.  While I've had plenty of players gripe when I joined a team on an energy blaster, the complaints have always stopped once the team got rolling, because I know what I'm doing.

 

My rules of KB are very simple:

1. I am careful not to knock back enemies that melee characters are currently targeting.

2. If I knock back a single target, then I'm claiming that target and I'm going to finish it off, so you don't need to worry about it.

3. When I use my AoE attacks, I will either 1) knock things into a corner where they will stay nicely herded, or 2). use Hover to turn my KB into KD.

4. If something aggro's on me and gets in my face, and if there isn't room for me to fly up out of its reach, yes, I'm going to Power Thrust it.  And then I'll finish it off, because see #2 above.

 

I've never had anyone complain to me about my KB in a team once the team actually got rolling.  The only complaints I've ever had were people who just assumed that any Energy Blaster would be a disaster for the party.

 

The Synapse TF isn't awful because of KB.  It's awful because of bad players and mostly because it's a bad TF to begin with.

How do you suppose players learn to properly manage KB?

 

Trial and error, that’s how.

When would this be most prevalent?  Low level missions and task forces!

 

Players need to understand that when they join low level content, there is a good chance someone on the team is still trying to learn the powers of their NEW toon.

They are not being “bad”, “awful” or “inconsiderate”.

They are being EXACTLY what every last player has been at some point in this game.

 

Now, if they level 30+ and haven’t figured it out….then yes, they are a mess.

 

Edited Saturday at 01:15 PM by Ghost

[Stormwalker]

4 hours ago, Ghost said:

How do you suppose players learn to properly manage KB?

 

Trial and error, that’s how.

When would this be most prevalent?  Low level missions and task forces!

 

Players need to understand that when they join low level content, there is a good chance someone on the team is still trying to learn the powers of their NEW toon.

They are not being “bad”, “awful” or “inconsiderate”.

They are being EXACTLY what every last player has been at some point in this game.

 

Now, if they level 30+ and haven’t figured it out….then yes, they are a mess.

 

 

I mean, this is absolutely true for truly new players.  But how many truly new players does this game have anymore?

 

Most of us are on alt 20+ by now (me, I'm on alt 50+ by now, and some have way more than me).

[Ghost]

4 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

I mean, this is absolutely true for truly new players.  But how many truly new players does this game have anymore?

 

Most of us are on alt 20+ by now (me, I'm on alt 50+ by now, and some have way more than me).

I don’t think it’s true only for new players.

There are still powers in this game Ive never played.  If I suddenly decide to try one for the first time, it’s gonna take a little time to figure out a play style.

 

Remember, not all vets are altaholics.