My top 5 CoH annoyances ...

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, the1egend1ives said:

One of my biggest gripes about City of Villains. Mind you, these kinds of missions CAN be fun if you're actually a supercriminal rather than an outright supervillain. You're looking for a quick payday, and that's alright. Lots of comic book villains fall under that umbrella. Batman and Spider-Man's villains, especially. But if you're trying to be Doctor Doom, Mister Sinister, Magneto, Lex Luthor, or any other villain with bigger aspirations than simply hitting it big, you're gonna have a bad time. 

I think this stems from how CoV was implemented from the get-go - basically just copying CoH's mechanics with a different paintjob;  In order to allow our villains to be pro-active and the ones that initiate their own plots and schemes, the devs would have to fundamentally have CoV function differently...

[the1egend1ives]

25 minutes ago, biostem said:

I think this stems from how CoV was implemented from the get-go - basically just copying CoH's mechanics with a different paintjob;  In order to allow our villains to be pro-active and the ones that initiate their own plots and schemes, the devs would have to fundamentally have CoV function differently...

And to be fair, CoH's mechanics were what every major MMO did at the time. (and still does) The only MMO I know that does it differently is The Old Republic, but that's just a Single Player RPG with MMO flavoring.

[Scarlet Shocker]

On 1/22/2025 at 10:30 PM, the1egend1ives said:

And to be fair, CoH's mechanics were what every major MMO did at the time. (and still does) The only MMO I know that does it differently is The Old Republic, but that's just a Single Player RPG with MMO flavoring.

 

The Secret World did things very differently but sadly that's doing a passable impression of a dodo.

[Stormwalker]

My biggest annoyances:

1. Paragon Protectors
2. Paragon Protectors (yes, they're so annoying they get listed twice).
3. Five defeat all missions out of 7 at the start of the Synapse TF.
4. Paragon Protectors (oops, that's three)
5. The Citadel TF being basically the same mission 10 times.

Honorable Mention (since I listed Paragon Protectors 3 times): Trying to get around on redside on a Super Speeder.

Edited Friday at 10:23 PM by Stormwalker

[gameboy1234]

17 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

Honorable Mention (since I listed Paragon Protectors 3 times): Trying to get around on redside on a Super Speeder.

 

That's actually a point.  Someone on the design team was really interested in adding vertical challenges to all maps.  I'm not sure why.  Maybe they thought there should be an advantage to Flight that other travel powers didn't have, or if it was just an aesthetic choice (or some sort of PVS in the graphics engine?), but it's kinda horrible.  Flattening some maps and making things more accessible seem like at least worth considering.

 

Some pet peeves:

 

1. League Code. Whether it's scrambling the league on mission load or the obtuse UI, this is a pretty horrible piece of tech.  Frankly I think the whole thing needs an overhaul.  At minimum fix the tech issues, but it would be useful to also look at the UI and make it easier to use.  A feature to lock teams to 50 would be useful (auto-promote a team member to leader).  Be able to reorganize the order of members of team members.  Clearly indicate the actual level of each individual so decisions can be made who to promote and where to put them on a league.  More better options for display.  Etc.

 

2. Collision Detection.  The CD seems too aggressive most of the time.  This is especially true in tight maps like caves and around lots of small geometry objects.  Large toons can have a lot of difficulty here.  Flyers have the collision shapes displaced from the model so it's easy to misjudge the actual location of the character.  Looking at game design articles, CD in modern games is used to help the player move around the map.  The implementation in CoH seems to be a classic and basic implementation of CD, with the result of a CD being basically "full stop," which is pretty terrible for players.  In my mind, I think the client should be in charge of finding the best way to move around the map based on player actions, and the server should just verify that the player doesn't CD and the movement is valid (and the result of an error here can be "full stop" since the client was supposed to generate this).

 

3. NPCs getting stuck.  This is an old problem and really needs fixing.  I'm talking about getting rag-dolled into geometry and then the animation doesn't CD in their new position and they're stuck when they stand up into geometry or something.

 

4. Gravity Geysers.  These things always suck.  You need a magical incantation and a dead chicken to get one to work right.  Just replace them already.

 

5. Walk Speed.  Needs to change based on the size of the model.  It's "walk," you're moving slowly and all your powers are shut off, I don't think there's any need for "fairness" or any exploits to worry about here.

 

 

Bonus gripe:

 

Temp Power Icons: Always grey.  I think it would be useful to start adding some color to these, I often have issues telling them apart on my tray.  Might have been OK when there were few of these in game but now there's dozens.  Start by adding a bit of color to the most popular powers (Envenomed Daggers?) and then see how players like it.  Maybe decide on a common theme like a black outline or something.

 

[gameboy1234]

On 1/20/2025 at 10:49 AM, srmalloy said:

In my opinion, it would be worthwhile to create content that showcases the animosity separating the two groups, with a story arc that feeds you clues about the original breakup of the 5th Column, with an Ouroboros-only arc that puts you back in the middle of that breakup

 

The intro to Ouroboros has you actually help the Council win against the 5th Column.  You literally are the person responsible for forcing the most important leadership in the 5th Column to join the Council.  It's pretty good as lore, and I enjoyed it.  I also played it as a villain, as a hero it might be pretty dark actually.

 

Mender Lazarus's mission, level 30-39.

 

[Stormwalker]

2 hours ago, gameboy1234 said:

 

That's actually a point.  Someone on the design team was really interested in adding vertical challenges to all maps.  I'm not sure why.  Maybe they thought there should be an advantage to Flight that other travel powers didn't have, or if it was just an aesthetic choice (or some sort of PVS in the graphics engine?), but it's kinda horrible.  Flattening some maps and making things more accessible seem like at least worth considering.

 

<snipped parts I'm not commenting on for the sake of brevity>

 

2. Collision Detection.  The CD seems too aggressive most of the time.  This is especially true in tight maps like caves and around lots of small geometry objects.  Large toons can have a lot of difficulty here.  Flyers have the collision shapes displaced from the model so it's easy to misjudge the actual location of the character.  Looking at game design articles, CD in modern games is used to help the player move around the map.  The implementation in CoH seems to be a classic and basic implementation of CD, with the result of a CD being basically "full stop," which is pretty terrible for players.  In my mind, I think the client should be in charge of finding the best way to move around the map based on player actions, and the server should just verify that the player doesn't CD and the movement is valid (and the result of an error here can be "full stop" since the client was supposed to generate this).

 

3. NPCs getting stuck.  This is an old problem and really needs fixing.  I'm talking about getting rag-dolled into geometry and then the animation doesn't CD in their new position and they're stuck when they stand up into geometry or something.

 

4. Gravity Geysers.  These things always suck.  You need a magical incantation and a dead chicken to get one to work right.  Just replace them already.

 

<snipped more parts I'm not commenting on for brevity>

 

 

Regarding the travel powers: I do think there should be some advantage to flight, since the price you pay for it is being slower than the other travel powers (though Afterburner and Evasive Maneuvers help a lot with this).  And I think the design of the Rogue Isles may have something to do with the fact that, in the early days of CoH, Flight was widely regarded as the "worst" travel power (which never stopped me from taking it, because if I could have ANY super power in RL, I'd choose Flight without hesitation).  But I also think they overdid it a bit.  There are parts of the Isles (Cap, Grandville) which can be a pain even with Super Jump, and Super Speed in those zones is Hell.

 

Regarding the collision detection: I think this is largely an old-tech problem, honestly.  By the standards of its day, CoH isn't that bad.  It only looks bad when comparing it to much more modern games.

 

Regarding NPC's getting stuck:  Yeah, this one should actually have been on my list.  That one multitiered outdoor industrial map on blueside that shows up in several missions is a real problem for any character with KB (or in the case of that <bleep> Psychic Clockwork mission, anyone with KD!) is a nightmare for this.  If you don't have a PBAoE to "unstuck" them with, or if they get stuck in a place the PBAoE can't hit them due to "target blocked", it's even worse.  Someone was just saying on chat the other day on Torch that we need an "NPC unstuck" command, and I have to say that would be really nice (though I don't know if it's actually feasible to do).

 

Regarding gravity geysers:  Yeah, the Shard is another place where Super Speed is Hell, for exactly this reason.  We need something like Phantasy Star Online 2's "jump pads" where it actually launches you directly to the intended destination instead of just propelling you in vaguely the general direction.  These are one of the (numerous) reasons nobody runs Shard TF's.

Edited 11 hours ago by Stormwalker

[gameboy1234]

11 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

Regarding gravity geysers:  Yeah, the Shard is another place where Super Speed is Hell, for exactly this reason.  We need something like Phantasy Star Online 2's "jump pads"

 

I like the jump pad idea.  I think it's even been proposed.  Just dispose of any idea of "jumping" or CoH mechanics and just put everyone on a "track" the follows a basic parabola from point to point and have everyone travel that exact path.  I don't know how hard that would be to do with the current engine but trying to finesse the "physics" to get it just right sounds like a far more complicated idea.

 

[Stormwalker]

2 hours ago, gameboy1234 said:

 

The intro to Ouroboros has you actually help the Council win against the 5th Column.  You literally are the person responsible for forcing the most important leadership in the 5th Column to join the Council.  It's pretty good as lore, and I enjoyed it.  I also played it as a villain, as a hero it might be pretty dark actually.

 

Mender Lazarus's mission, level 30-39.

 

 

Yeah, on a Hero this one can feel pretty OOC.  A Vigilante might have an easier time applying "the ends justify the means" to this one.  Assuming you believe Mender Lazarus' justifications for why it needs to happen.

 

I haven't run it in a while, though, so I don't remember the details of it all that well.

 

Speaking of OOC, this reminds me of something else that should have been on my list:  The "go undercover in the Skulls" mission in the Eagle Eye arc in Kings' Row.  I autocomplete this mission on basically every character, because getting in a fight where the loser is going to be killed as part of their undercover op is wildly out of character for most of my heroes.  Not for fear of their own lives, but because they're basically condemning someone else to death by participating.

 

My heroes (especially the ones that use weapons that deal "lethal" damage) do understand that sometimes a villain is going to die just because they absolutely refuse to yield and they have to be stopped, but this really isn't one of those situations.  They'd have found a different way to get the information they needed.

 

And, yesterday reminded me of ANOTHER story arc that drives me a little crazy, but in this case because it's an Idiot Plot (if you don't know the term, it's a story where "the consequences could have been avoided if ANYONE involved had chosen not to be an idiot at any point"):  The Wheel of Destruction arc.  Going to spoiler this bit for those who haven't run the arc, since I'll be spoiling the whole plot:

 

Spoiler

Ok, so we have an artifact about which we know the following:

• It's extremely powerful
• It's called "The Wheel of Destruction", so nothing good is coming from assembling it
• Multiple villain groups would kill to have it.

And Azuria and our contact basically push us into:

1. Carrying pieces of the things around while we are going out to fight the very villains who want it, thus exposing it to the risk of them getting it.
2.  Assembling the blasted thing ourselves (remember the above point about nothing good coming of this)
3. Handing it over to MAGI (who do not have the best track record of holding onto dangerous artifacts)
4. Going on a long patrol halfway across the city while MAGI is studying the completed Wheel.

Predictably, of course, while we are out on Patrol, the completed wheel is stolen by the Banished Pantheon, the very last people we would want to have it, and we have to race against time to save the day.

 

Even my 17-year-old magical girl hero was screaming at her contact and Azuria at this point for being incredibly stupid.  In fact, the screaming started when her contact first said, "We've made our first steps toward assembling the Wheel of Destruction", because her in-character response to this was, "THAT'S NOT A GOOD THING!"

Yeah, that arc drives me slightly nuts.

Edited 10 hours ago by Stormwalker
removed a redundant bullet point

[Stormwalker]

10 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

 

I like the jump pad idea.  I think it's even been proposed.  Just dispose of any idea of "jumping" or CoH mechanics and just put everyone on a "track" the follows a basic parabola from point to point and have everyone travel that exact path.  I don't know how hard that would be to do with the current engine but trying to finesse the "physics" to get it just right sounds like a far more complicated idea.

 

 

Yeah, I don't know if it's possible, either, but it's the best thing I can think of while retaining the original feel.

 

Simply replacing them with teleport pads to the appropriate destination would definitely be possible in the engine, but would give up some of that feel.

[Octogoat]

2 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

 

Yeah, on a Hero this one can feel pretty OOC.  A Vigilante might have an easier time applying "the ends justify the means" to this one.  Assuming you believe Mender Lazarus' justifications for why it needs to happen.

 

I haven't run it in a while, though, so I don't remember the details of it all that well.

 

Speaking of OOC, this reminds me of something else that should have been on my list:  The "go undercover in the Skulls" mission in the Eagle Eye arc in Kings' Row.  I autocomplete this mission on basically every character, because getting in a fight where the loser is going to be killed as part of their undercover op is wildly out of character for most of my heroes.  Not for fear of their own lives, but because they're basically condemning someone else to death by participating.

 

My heroes (especially the ones that use weapons that deal "lethal" damage) do understand that sometimes a villain is going to die just because they absolutely refuse to yield and they have to be stopped, but this really isn't one of those situations.  They'd have found a different way to get the information they needed.

 

And, yesterday reminded me of ANOTHER story arc that drives me a little crazy, but in this case because it's an Idiot Plot (if you don't know the term, it's a story where "the consequences could have been avoided if ANYONE involved had chosen not to be an idiot at any point"):  The Wheel of Destruction arc.  Going to spoiler this bit for those who haven't run the arc, since I'll be spoiling the whole plot:

 

  Hide contents

Ok, so we have an artifact about which we know the following:

• It's extremely powerful
• It's called "The Wheel of Destruction", so nothing good is coming from assembling it
• Multiple villain groups would kill to have it.

And Azuria and our contact basically push us into:

1. Carrying pieces of the things around while we are going out to fight the very villains who want it, thus exposing it to the risk of them getting it.
2.  Assembling the blasted thing ourselves (remember the above point about nothing good coming of this)
3. Handing it over to MAGI (who do not have the best track record of holding onto dangerous artifacts)
4. Going on a long patrol halfway across the city while MAGI is studying the completed Wheel.

Predictably, of course, while we are out on Patrol, the completed wheel is stolen by the Banished Pantheon, the very last people we would want to have it, and we have to race against time to save the day.

 

Even my 17-year-old magical girl hero was screaming at her contact and Azuria at this point for being incredibly stupid.  In fact, the screaming started when her contact first said, "We've made our first steps toward assembling the Wheel of Destruction", because her in-character response to this was, "THAT'S NOT A GOOD THING!"

Yeah, that arc drives me slightly nuts.

Wheel of destruction turn turn turn show is the lesson that we should learn....

[biostem]

4 hours ago, gameboy1234 said:

The intro to Ouroboros has you actually help the Council win against the 5th Column.  You literally are the person responsible for forcing the most important leadership in the 5th Column to join the Council.  It's pretty good as lore, and I enjoyed it.  I also played it as a villain, as a hero it might be pretty dark actually.

One of the biggest annoyances for me, (and maybe it's due to the conditions surrounding CoH's operation when it was still live), but there's a significant lack of "taking a 3rd option" in missions - there didn't seem to have been any thought, effort, or both, put into allowing a way for things to still play out so they "fit" with the current timeframe, without our characters kind of helping the Council.  It'd have been nice to be able to try and undermine both groups, only to find out your efforts have actually forced them to come together, thereby leading to the same outcome, only without you directly aiding one side...

[gameboy1234]

2 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

 

Yeah, I don't know if it's possible, either, but it's the best thing I can think of while retaining the original feel.

 

Simply replacing them with teleport pads to the appropriate destination would definitely be possible in the engine, but would give up some of that feel.

 

My 2nd best idea is to use the teleport idea, but have the camera fly towards its new location, rather than porting with the player.  This would give a sense of distance and scale, while still using what might be an easier mechanic for the engine/server.  I don't know if that's possible to have the camera do that, but it's a thought I had.

 

[gameboy1234]

31 minutes ago, biostem said:

It'd have been nice to be able to try and undermine both groups, only to find out your efforts have actually forced them to come together, thereby leading to the same outcome, only without you directly aiding one side...

 

I like this.  However I think the developer intent was to actually have the player *dislike* the actions they just took, even while being told the action was necessary.  Allowing players an easy out (it's a game, choosing to disobey authority is easy here, but in the real world would you be able to make that choice?) would remove a lot of the pathos that I think developers had planned.

 

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

I like this.  However I think the developer intent was to actually have the player *dislike* the actions they just took, even while being told the action was necessary.  Allowing players an easy out (it's a game, choosing to disobey authority is easy here, but in the real world would you be able to make that choice?) would remove a lot of the pathos that I think developers had planned.

The thing is, in trying to install that pathos, you are removing agency from the player, and that, (while it may be necessary in very specific circumstances), is not the case, here.  Why can't our characters just wipe them out completely?  Why can't they come up with any other solution?  IMO, it's no different than forcing a player to act a certain way in a cutscene, even though they don't have to in all other situations...

[BasiliskXVIII]

5 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

 

Yeah, on a Hero this one can feel pretty OOC.  A Vigilante might have an easier time applying "the ends justify the means" to this one.  Assuming you believe Mender Lazarus' justifications for why it needs to happen.

 

I haven't run it in a while, though, so I don't remember the details of it all that well.

 

Speaking of OOC, this reminds me of something else that should have been on my list:  The "go undercover in the Skulls" mission in the Eagle Eye arc in Kings' Row.  I autocomplete this mission on basically every character, because getting in a fight where the loser is going to be killed as part of their undercover op is wildly out of character for most of my heroes.  Not for fear of their own lives, but because they're basically condemning someone else to death by participating.

 

My heroes (especially the ones that use weapons that deal "lethal" damage) do understand that sometimes a villain is going to die just because they absolutely refuse to yield and they have to be stopped, but this really isn't one of those situations.  They'd have found a different way to get the information they needed.

 

And, yesterday reminded me of ANOTHER story arc that drives me a little crazy, but in this case because it's an Idiot Plot (if you don't know the term, it's a story where "the consequences could have been avoided if ANYONE involved had chosen not to be an idiot at any point"):  The Wheel of Destruction arc.  Going to spoiler this bit for those who haven't run the arc, since I'll be spoiling the whole plot:

 

  Hide contents

Ok, so we have an artifact about which we know the following:

• It's extremely powerful
• It's called "The Wheel of Destruction", so nothing good is coming from assembling it
• Multiple villain groups would kill to have it.

And Azuria and our contact basically push us into:

1. Carrying pieces of the things around while we are going out to fight the very villains who want it, thus exposing it to the risk of them getting it.
2.  Assembling the blasted thing ourselves (remember the above point about nothing good coming of this)
3. Handing it over to MAGI (who do not have the best track record of holding onto dangerous artifacts)
4. Going on a long patrol halfway across the city while MAGI is studying the completed Wheel.

Predictably, of course, while we are out on Patrol, the completed wheel is stolen by the Banished Pantheon, the very last people we would want to have it, and we have to race against time to save the day.

 

Even my 17-year-old magical girl hero was screaming at her contact and Azuria at this point for being incredibly stupid.  In fact, the screaming started when her contact first said, "We've made our first steps toward assembling the Wheel of Destruction", because her in-character response to this was, "THAT'S NOT A GOOD THING!"

Yeah, that arc drives me slightly nuts.

 

This actually reminds me of something that I was thinking this morning while running a new character on Victory.  What the heck is up with Twinshot's arc? I decided to run it just because I had no one around to do a DFB, First off you're getting a tutorial in an arc you can't access until level 5 or later and it starts with finding out how to level up? It also brings you to the hospital, as if you're ever going there without being teleported, and the police station, as if there's anything to do there. The only one that makes any sense at this point is maybe the auction house.

 

But then there's also the plot. Graves gets a lot of stick because it's... just so bad.... But Twinshot's just falls apart if you think about it. You get attacked by Arachnos, You track Arachnos down to Justin Sinclair, and then he reveals that the Arachnos you've fought are a bunch of actors? Even ignoring the fact that I'm tearing through the enemies with an Arsenal Assault Dominator, and you need to have a lot of faith that I'm using that thing nonlethally, you're still recruiting people to intentionally put themselves in a position to get the living crap beaten out of them? And this is a test? Manticore's supposed to be CoH's Batman. He can't just tail us fighting Skulls, or even point us in the direction of a REAL Arachnos operation somewhere? By the point I was running this, I'd done Thiery's arc, so it's no surprise that Arachnos is there... Just the idea that Manticore's idea of a test is "hey, beat up a bunch of actors in costumes"... why?

[Krazix]

People who wait till half the team has run off or gone through an oro before they say TT, especially on a speed TF when we're blowing through TTs, then everyone mills about for a few second and you don't say shit, so everyone takes off then  you decide to share your TT.

[gameboy1234]

2 hours ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

First off you're getting a tutorial in an arc you can't access until level 5 or later and it starts with finding out how to level up?

 

I think it's supposed to follow Matthew Habashy's arc, which is mostly trying for lots of action and "rush around doing stuff!!" type of gameplay, while also showing off some of the new features of the engine like spawning a character other than your own so you can be "in disguise" during a mission.

 

I think Twinshot is meant to pick up after that and reinforce things you maybe weren't sure about, even if you've experienced them before.  But also to experience some gameplay first so that the tutorial wasn't just theoretical at that point. The locations thing is mostly about Day Jobs.  You go to City Hall and the Hospital and the Police Department and Wentworth's to learn there are special locations to log out.  The level up thing actually gets you over to Kings Row to talk to Blue Steel, so you can learn there's more than one trainer and also how to use the Tram.  It's not terrible.  The plot, I'll grant you, is a little weak.  And the AI personally bugs the heck out of me.  But it kinda is what it is.  I'd like to see work done on it, but I can see how it's not a priority.

[gameboy1234]

Extra Plus Bonus Annoyance:

 

Maps with jails.

 

Die on this map and you'll go to jail!  Be separated from your team!  Wait for them to bust you out or try to solo what is probably far too many mobs for your character to handle!  So just sit and wait instead!  Yeah no...

 

 

[Stormwalker]

I have another one to add after doing an outdoor mission on +2x7 that seemed to never end.

 

Carnie Master Illusionists.  It's not because they're dangerous (they are, but I don't mind that.  Challenge is not a bad thing).  It's because they spend half the fight phased out and so it takes freaking forever to defeat them, and it's that much worse when you have an outdoor mission that has tons of them in it, and you're just thinking, "Can this mission please end already?" and yet... more Master Illusionists wasting your time even more.

 

So, I guess instead of just "Paragon Protectors" and "Master Illusionists", I should combine them into "Enemies that constantly waste the player's time".

 

In fact, the whole reason I'm on +2x7 instead of +2x8 is because I got sick of getting three Master Illusionists in a spawn.

Edited 34 minutes ago by Stormwalker

[lemming]

7 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

Extra Plus Bonus Annoyance:

 

Maps with jails.

 

Die on this map and you'll go to jail!  Be separated from your team!  Wait for them to bust you out or try to solo what is probably far too many mobs for your character to handle!  So just sit and wait instead!  Yeah no...

I actually like those maps since I don't have to hospital then

[lemming]

On Jump Jets:

The main issue is they take account of enhancements and other modifiers and really should just shoot you one direction.

 

I want them to fire you off in a jump and as long as you don't hit a control, you should land in the same spot everytime.    If you hit a control, well, then you will go elsewhere.   I'd prefer that to a teleport or something more fixed.