brute A Brutal Dilemma Part 2: What Now?

[LightMaster]

I’ve once posted solutions for Brute some months ago with mixed receptions, and I got more experience with CoX since then.

 

As many complained about Brute being overshadowed by other Melee ATs, there is something to remember about the AT prior to Issue 28; Tanker ended up being overshadowed by Brute as the Tanker deals too little damage to be appealing. Back when CoH and CoV were seperate, this is not an issue, but once the games and servers merged, it’s clear that neither were future-proofed.

 

At this day, the Tanker became more fun to use; damage scalar moderately increased to be able to deal damage especially through their AoE attacks, but still below even the Brute’s maximum damage capability overall.

 

Back to the Brute… We as a community is reaching a point where we ended up becoming too conflicted and close-minded on how to buff the Brute without stepping over the line of other Melee ATs despite their lack of true specialty.

 

Even the Sentinel, which isn’t a high tier AT by any mean as a “ranged Scrapper”, is still specialized enough to be capable of turning the tide when all else fails and do what other ATs cannot do better in every way, including their very valuable Inherent, Vulnerability, which benefits the Sentinel and all other ATs.

 

The Brute’s ATO procs are their own issues that will be addressed seperately, right now I shall focus on the Brute’s two advantages that are best keep that way (and maybe even build upon), and two fondamental issues that need to be addressed.

 

Do note that the goal isn’t necessarily making Brutes viable for 4-stat contents, given most team runs the rigid but effective team composition of One Tank-Two Blasters-Five Corruptors - sometimes four and a Defender, but rather give the Brute something other Melee ATs cannot do so easily.

 

Advantage 1: Ease of use and solo-friendliness

The Brute is one of the ATs with the most created toons, and for good reasons that’ll be explained below. And for the same reasons, it is also one of, if not the most consistently great AT to go for when solo’ing, be it farming or simply playing through missions, especially at +4/8 difficulty.

 

With that in mind, not much responsibility is required for the Brute on a team if there is a Tanker around. This allows the Brute to do whatever the heck they want as long they directly contribute to the team, be it defeating foes or completing objectives. As an off-tank, they do a pretty good job, even if not strictly all that tankier than Scrapper in mathematical terms.

 

Advantage 2: A solid middleground of Scrapper and Tanker

An important factor of the Brute’s popularity is a good balance between damage and tankiness. If one wants to be tanky but found Tankers hit like wet noodles, or wants high damage melee-only AT but found Scrapper or Stalker too fragile, then they will find the Brute very appealing, especially for solo plays.

 

In other words, simple premise, but effective at it. “Unga bunga” all the way!

 

Disadventage 1: Lack of true specialization

Among the Melee ATs, the Brute is a master of none. Scrapper and Stalker outdo it in overall damage, while the Tanker obviously out-tanks it. The only thing going for it is higher ranged damage, and even then you have to rely on Temporary Power and Epic Pools to do that.
 

Not helping is that putting ranged powers as alternative/mutually exclusives in Brute’s primary may be stepping over Sentinel, even if the latter can only use it’s Melee scalar for Boxing or at most two Melee powers in Epic Pools. Brute may be much tankier than Blaster and Dominator, the two true Melee+Ranged hybrid ATs, but the latter two don’t need extra survivability anyways, especially on a team.

 

Disadventage 2: Fury is boring (even if effective)

As an Inherent, Fury does it’s job pretty well; encourage the Brute to keep fighting and taking hits for Bonus Damage, allowing the Brute to eventually reaches higher damage potential than the Tanker. However, aside of being bugged (not reaching higher than 85%), it doesn’t do anything else important for itself or it’s team.
 

What’s more is that the residential True DPS Archetype, Blaster, has an Inherent called Defiance that not only grants some Damage Bonus when using it’s primary or secondary, but even allows it to attack with level 1 powers when mezzed. Defiance used to be different in which way I do not know, but now Fury feels redundant in that department.

 

What can be done, then? Turns out, none of the Melees have buff/debuff as their main style, and the Stalker can inflict Terrorize via stealthed Assassination, so a possible solution is to allow the Brute to have stronger debuff (and only Debuff!) potential, making it more akin to Sentinel’s Vulnerability and the ATs that has access to Buff/Debuff sets and thus more appealing to a team.

 

Solution to Disadventage 1: Melee-oriented Debuffs

Lore-wise and logically, there is no doubt that a brutal punch from a Brute will leave bigger marks and more broken bones than a precise strike from a Scrapper or Stalker, as the latters’ strike are not necessarily more pain-inducing. As such, a Brute can shatter an armor or split apart a forcefield with their bare hands or their heavy and powerful weapon.

 

-Res might be a no-no because it can result in Brute dealing more damage than Scrapper/Stalker, granted -Res is a team-wide benefit anyways, but -Def, -ToHit, -Rech, -Regen, -Recovery and other non-mezzing debuffs will be very much more severe if used by a Brute than other melee-only Archetypes through stacking, but those debuffs will be slightly weaker and shorter meaning the Brute must keep hitting them to stay true with their playstyle. The Brute’s Melee sets will be able to inflict a variety of debuffs as a result, making some more appealing than on other ATs.

 

Take Kinetic Melee, for example. It’s only known unique aspect is -DMG on foe with a Quick Strike, and that’s it. Any Knockup/back/down are already done by other Melee sets and those have another thing going for them.
 

Now with a Brute, the -DMG is near-universal when using Kinetic Melee, each having small but stackable -DMG on a foe making a Brute a monster in a 1v1 fight, whereas the Tanker can take multiple enemies at once but not necessarily a super-powerful AV without the help of a Defender, Controller or Corruptor.

 

Melee sets that don’t inflict a debuff when used by a Brute can inflict one depending on the theme. This means when used by a Brute, a Energy Melee can potentially inflicts -ToHit / -Rech, Fiery Melee inflicting -Regen (mimicking the Fire DoT of Fire Blast!), Ice Melee having more severe Slow and -Rech, Stone Melee inflicting -Recovery, etc.

 

Solution to Disadventage 2: Fury now also provides +ToHit

Pretty simple to keep Fury simple to use and easy to understand. Thusly Brute players now don’t need to slot some Accuracy Enhancements SOs / IOs until they can afford sets, and makes it even friendlier for +4/8 soloing. To counterbalance this, the Brute has a small ToHit penalty if Fury is empty and then if the Brute wasn’t in combat for more than ten seconds.

 

What do you think of the solutions? Do you have any other solution you have in mind?

Edited July 29 by LightMaster

[srmalloy]

14 minutes ago, LightMaster said:

As many complained about Brute being overshadowed by other Melee ATs, there is something to remember about the AT prior to Issue 28; Tanker ended up being overshadowed by Brute as the Tanker deals too little damage to be appealing. Back when CoH and CoV were seperate, this is not an issue, but once the games and servers merged, it’s clear that neither were future-proofed.

It's also worth noting that the roles are not equivalent -- in the original intent of the CoV design, Masterminds were the Tanker analogue, and Brutes were the Scrapper analogue. That the original intent fell on its face rather badly -- Masterminds having to resummon and indivually buff all their henchmen at every door, for example (still better than Controllers having to resummon their pets every time they went up or down an elevator, which shows some progress), which caused Brutes to largely assume the tank role while the MMs were back at the door fiddling with their pets, and the lines blurring further when side-switching was added -- shows that the original design intent lacked a real coherent plan for the future.

[LightMaster]

6 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

It's also worth noting that the roles are not equivalent -- in the original intent of the CoV design, Masterminds were the Tanker analogue, and Brutes were the Scrapper analogue. That the original intent fell on its face rather badly -- Masterminds having to resummon and indivually buff all their henchmen at every door, for example (still better than Controllers having to resummon their pets every time they went up or down an elevator, which shows some progress), which caused Brutes to largely assume the tank role while the MMs were back at the door fiddling with their pets, and the lines blurring further when side-switching was added -- shows that the original design intent lacked a real coherent plan for the future.

Ooh definitely, I remembered that. In fact, the practice shows the direct counterparts among CoH and CoV Archetypes:

• Scrapper and Stalker: Melee Glass Cannons, with Scrappers being more straightforward while Stalker have built-in stealth for their Armor.
• Tanker and Brute: Tanky Melees, with Tanker being more durable / dodgy while Brutes are more damage-oriented.
• Defender and Corruptor: Buff/Debuff ATs, with Defender having stronger buffs/debuffs while Corruptor focus more on damage.
• Controller and Dominator: Crowd Control-oriented ATs, with Controller having stronger controls (at least in theory) while Dominator have higher damage scalar (not by much back then, but definitely higher nowadays to be much less overrelient on Domination)
• HEATs and VEATs: Team oriented versatile ATs, with Kheldians having changeling ability to change role on the spot depending in situation and team composition, while the Soldiers of Arachnos have a limited career selection but have very good individual powers and support, especially Toxic Web Grenade.
• Blaster and Mastermind: The odd-ones-out, with Blaster having emphasis on damage more than every other ATs, while Mastermind orients around commanding many pets and are stronger when a teammate MM is involved.
• Sentinel was made way after the CoH and CoV merge thus no direct counterpart.
• The villain side has more emphasis on damage (single target damage in Stalker’s case), barring Mastermind which that is their own thing. It worked in favor of Stalker, Dominator, the VEATs and especially the Corruptor… not so much the Brute nowadays.

[mistagoat]

Interesting, I like the concept of Brutes with debuffs! How would you envision it working? For example Shadow Punch, the T1 from Dark melee currently applies a 100% chance of 5.625% -to hit to the target for 6 seconds. What do you think those numbers would look like on a debuff Brute?

[srmalloy]

Redside was designed around each of the ATs being more self-reliant; in the early issues of CoH, both Controllers and Defenders had issues where they became much more dependent on teaming -- as I remember, at around level 12, my Controllers' solo leveling slowed to an absolute crawl; while they were largely safe due to the amount of control they could put on hostile mobs, their ability to take them down degraded horribly. On teams, the problem didn't exist, and once a Controller got to 32 and got their pet(s) the problem went away; it wasn't until Containment was added that the low-mid-level soloing experience was improved. Defenders... well, I've never really understood how the Defender inherent was supposed to work -- you get an End discount if the rest of your team is sucking more? It's supposed to show the Defender stepping up and being able to keep attacking in the face of adversity, but it doesn't make your attacks any faster or stronger, so you're still standing around waiting for your abilities to recharge so you can do the limited damage your AT modifier gives you while the mobs that are wiping the floor with your more combat-capable teammates decide you're a better target. If the Defender inherent gave you a boost to End cost, recharge, and damage as your team's overall health declined, it would fit the concept better, but an inherent that only comes into play when you're not doing your job as a part of the team feels misapplied.

[Rudra]

55 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

It's also worth noting that the roles are not equivalent -- in the original intent of the CoV design, Masterminds were the Tanker analogue, and Brutes were the Scrapper analogue. That the original intent fell on its face rather badly -- Masterminds having to resummon and indivually buff all their henchmen at every door, for example (still better than Controllers having to resummon their pets every time they went up or down an elevator, which shows some progress), which caused Brutes to largely assume the tank role while the MMs were back at the door fiddling with their pets, and the lines blurring further when side-switching was added -- shows that the original design intent lacked a real coherent plan for the future.

I never understood that claim seeing as Masterminds were extremely vulnerable before Bodyguard Mode was active. Most of the time, mobs simply ignored the pets and went for the MM directly. Yes, the idea was that the mobs would spend most of their focus on the pets, but that never happened in my experience. And I have to assume that was also the case in testing before CoV launched considering how many comments I about the same thing I saw before BG Mode was added. The Brute always seemed the red side Tanker to me. It was a direct reflection of Tankers after all.

[LightMaster]

46 minutes ago, mistagoat said:

Interesting, I like the concept of Brutes with debuffs! How would you envision it working? For example Shadow Punch, the T1 from Dark melee currently applies a 100% chance of 5.625% -to hit to the target for 6 seconds. What do you think those numbers would look like on a debuff Brute?

The numbers could be slightly lower than Corruptor’s debuffing numbers, have slightly shorter time but can stack per-hit, given that the Brute will attack in melee-range and have much higher tankiness than actual buff/debuff ATs.

 

Going back to your example, Shadow Punch will have around 4.125% -ToHit for 4 seconds, but can stack with itself and with the Brute’s Dark Melee powers’ -ToHit chance. Keep in mind it requires the Brute to get up close to the enemies, making for a risky but rewarding maneuver. And that’s without saying about the AV’s Purple Patch.

 

In a sense, the Brute can become a melee-oriented debuffer that can become more desirable on a team than before, with a niche that no other Melee ATs has, all while remaining solo-friendly with high damage and survivability combined vs other ATs.

Edited July 29 by LightMaster

[FupDup]

Ston once suggested that Fury grant a mobility buff, which would fit their aggressive nature and help them keep Fury between engagements. Someone else suggested debuff resistance to emphasize the “too angry to put down” idea.

 

In general, I think their armor modifier should be higher than Stalkers/Scrappers because of their offtank role. Minimum of 0.8, but no higher than 0.85 (note that Tanks are 1.0, Scrap/Stalk/Brute are all 0.75 right now, and Sents are 0.7 because fuck those guys). Brute caps are very high, but you have to pay with slots and blood to reach them on many armors (and defense armors hardly gain anything at all). 
 

The +Fury ATO could probably use a replacement due to how easy Fury is to build, maybe just a Smashing damage proc. The other ATO proc is fine but maybe the regen could be higher.

[LightMaster]

1 hour ago, FupDup said:

Ston once suggested that Fury grant a mobility buff, which would fit their aggressive nature and help them keep Fury between engagements. Someone else suggested debuff resistance to emphasize the “too angry to put down” idea.

 

In general, I think their armor modifier should be higher than Stalkers/Scrappers because of their offtank role. Minimum of 0.8, but no higher than 0.85 (note that Tanks are 1.0, Scrap/Stalk/Brute are all 0.75 right now, and Sents are 0.7 because fuck those guys). Brute caps are very high, but you have to pay with slots and blood to reach them on many armors (and defense armors hardly gain anything at all). 
 

The +Fury ATO could probably use a replacement due to how easy Fury is to build, maybe just a Smashing damage proc. The other ATO proc is fine but maybe the regen could be higher.

The debuff resistance may end up outdoing Tanker in survivability and overshadowing Scrapper in damage due to the risk of resisting -DMG and -Res/-Def too much, even if those situations are rare. Fury granting a mobility buff, though, sounds pretty good to make Fury more enticing to keep it high than just more damage and get in-and-out of battle fast.
 

I agree with the rest though. 0.8 armor modifier in particular would make it a more solid middleground between Tanks and Scrap/Stalk than already is before.

[PoptartsNinja]

3 hours ago, srmalloy said:

It's also worth noting that the roles are not equivalent -- in the original intent of the CoV design, Masterminds were the Tanker analogue

This is patently not true, but keeps getting trotted out as if it was.

 

The mastermind was always advertised as a pet class. They didn't even have bodyguard mode at the start, that was added in Issue 7.

[Triumphant]

Quote

Disadventage 1: Lack of true specialization

My feeling is that this is by design.  It's what I want out of the AT (similar to what I want out of the Sentinel- my second favorite AT, after Brutes).  So, for me, this is not a disadvantage.

 

Quote

Disadventage 2: Fury is boring (even if effective)

 

This is a subjective opinion.  I don't find it any more (or less) boring than any other inherent.

Brutes have become my most played (and favorite AT), even overtaking Sentinels, which used to be my #1.  Both ATs have many detractors.  I do feel there was once some justification for this, but the developer tweaks have really addressed those issues for me.  I'm very happy with where both ATs are at this point and time.

Just one Brute player's opinion.  🤷‍♂️