Are Carrion Creepers broken ?

[Force Redux]

@Troo I agree, I can't argue what your experience (or that of others') may be. It is what it is and it's valid, for you.

What I meant by leveling through incarnates, as @JediDave suggested, that it's not about having billion inf builds, its about the playtime between my Illusion/Rad, Gravity/Dark and Plant/Nature and finding Plant to be as competitive and useful as the other two builds. It means I took the time using some other very powerful builds to have a fair comparison, in my opinion and experience.

 

In all the years I've been in CoH I've never heard anyone complain about Plant being less than upper tier. If anything, Plant has consistently ranked high in performance on these forums (not sure about live, I don't recall specific posts there), but it leaned heavily on proc'd creepers and Seeds of Confusion to do so. We all knew those were likely targets over the years for an adjustment - and it finally came.

 

If they simply nerfed Seeds and Creepers and didn't adjust anything else, it would indeed, IMO, make Plants more mid-tier (B or C rank). But they didn't.

• They adjusted Spores to be Deep Sleep which is AMAZING. You can really keep things down even with incoming damage from things like Creepers.
• Audrey (Fly Trap) is now fairly beefy, and has a few attacks to cycle, and does so more intelligently and is actually really helpful for single target DPS now that you can control her and it speeds up the weakness of plant, which was ST damage (plant was always pretty good for AOE for many reasons).
• Spirit Tree now acts as a pocket tank. A great opener. Also a great way to rescue friends. It's regeneration and toughness make it virtually impossible to kill under most circumstances, effectively making it function like a no-damage Phantom Army that doesn't demand ridiculous amounts of recharge. And unlike PA, it doesn't go running off to aggro other groups lol
• Vines is now also a very functional 4-slot Basilisk Set hold for all occasions. Groups, single targets, it adapts as the other AOE holds to. Nicely done. 

I'm not sure what else to say. These days there are no bad Controller sets. Everything is pretty much performing at A rank or so. Again, you are welcome to have a different opinion. It was just that hearing about Plants being sub par BEFORE the last patch was kind of like hearing that Illusion was a poor performer. I just had to scratch my head. Mind? Sure. Ice (before its rework)? Sure. But Plant? Seriously, took me by surprise based on feedback read/seen/heard over the last 6 years. 

FWIW, since I'm still offering options, here is how I'd rank Controller primaries these days based on team function, control, damage, solo ability, ease of use:

S TIER

There are none. None are so superior to the others they outshine them. Every set has its strengths and weaknesses 

 

A TIER

Darkness

Electric
Gravity

Ice
Illusion

Mind
Plant
Pyrotechnic
Symphony

 

B TIER (and all of these just barely fit in B, and could easily be A...)

Arsenal - if you can manage ALL THE BUTTONS and ground targets lol, bump it to A 😉

Earth - light on damage until you can proc things. If you don't care about damage, it's A tier

Fire Control - hot feet needs a rework to less END; Bonfire needs a KB rework (opinion, I know)

 

Just my 2 INF. You all have a great day no matter what controller you choose to drive. We have LOTS of fun options and so many underperforming sets/powers have been adjusted IMO very well. I love controllers, we're in such a good place overall compared to live. 
 

Edited yesterday at 04:38 PM by Force Redux

[Troo]

26 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

• They adjusted Spores to be Deep Sleep which is AMAZING. You can really keep things down even with incoming damage from things like Creepers.
• Audrey (Fly Trap) is now fairly beefy, and has a few attacks to cycle, and does so more intelligently and is actually really helpful for single target DPS now that you can control her and it speeds up the weakness of plant, which was ST damage (plant was always pretty good for AOE for many reasons).
• Spirit Tree now acts as a pocket tank. A great opener. Also a great way to rescue friends. It's regeneration and toughness make it virtually impossible to kill under most circumstances, effectively making it function like a no-damage Phantom Army that doesn't demand ridiculous amounts of recharge. And unlike PA, it doesn't go running off to aggro other groups lol
• Vines is now also a very functional 4-slot Basilisk Set hold for all occasions. Groups, single targets, it adapts as the other AOE holds to. Nicely done. 

 

I think this is super helpful information.

[JediDave]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

 

Maybe you are looking at it out of context.

 

In context - The impacts of changes can be felt differently by different level ranges, different build budgets, different build choices, and different skill levels.

 

You can strongly disagree but I am going to double down. Yes, a player can absolutely "eventually unlock incarnates by just doing missions and leveling up".

If someone has done enough missions to level up all the way through Incarnates, that is not average.  Using just SOs, that is definitely not average. 

 

I disagreed with a single statement that seemed to be disregarding another person's lived experience because it differed from yours. The response I was replying to implied that incarnate builds are ABOVE the average quality of what players experience. I was using SOs to point out that incarnates are also present in BELOW average builds as well and are irrelevant for assessing a set. Obviously every set that gets buffed/nerfed/rebalanced will affect level 10 character differently than a level 50 character of the same power set, but level range is a weird baseline for "average player" considerations. "Average character" you have an argument, but claiming a level range relates to the "average player" is not something I think most people would agree with. Especially since seeds and tree are online so early.

 

 

2 hours ago, Troo said:

 

 

These can all be troo:

I liked plant before and don't like it now.

Plant used to feel stronger.

Plant used to be more fun.

Plant fit my play style before, now it doesn't.

Plant is numerically overall better than is was.

Plant works better now for my play style.

 

Arguing against someone's experience and/or how they feel.. That doesn't make sense to me. I guess that would be some jedi shit. "I felt bad",. "No you didn't"

 

I can agree to disagree with whatever your definition of average is.

Mathematically, leveling through Incarnates is not average. Game experience, leveling up a character via missions and regular content through Incarnates is not average. 

 

 

Nope.

If you would like to describe what you consider the "average player" to be, go ahead. We might even agree on that description. If you want to insult me based on a name I decided to keep from 20 years ago, also go ahead, but that seems unproductive. 

 

I like my plant controller just as much now as I did pre patch. You seem to not like your plant/ as much. I am arguing against your lived experience no more than you are arguing against Uun's lived experience or Force Redux's lived experience. 

[JediDave]

*double posted because internet speed is bad here*

Edited yesterday at 06:33 PM by JediDave
clicked submit too many times like a dummy

[Troo]

20 minutes ago, JediDave said:

If you want to insult me based on a name I decided to keep from 20 years ago, also go ahead, but that seems unproductive.

  

No insult. I'm not as clever or humorous as I think sometimes. 

 

20 minutes ago, JediDave said:

disregarding another person's lived experience because it differed from yours.

 

Nope.

I believe I was saying, let me paraphrase: 'hey, that's their experience. it's not wrong. it's their point of view, it's valid even if your experience is different'. This is why I mentioned context.

 

Player A: "My plant character is not the same, it sucks now"

Player B: "Plant is better now so your character doesn't suck, it's actually better"

 

That's some Obi-Wan Kenobi jedi shit there.

 

Edited 23 hours ago by Troo

[Force Redux]

Don't get into the mud guys. We all love CoH and controllers. Let's move on... "hey how about those Bears?"

>_>

🙂

[Captain Fabulous]

7 hours ago, JediDave said:

 

I strongly disagree with that. Incarnate build simply means you just keep using the same character. You'll eventually unlock incarnates by just doing missions and leveling up. I can have an incarnate build that is all SO slotting ffs.

 

I believe you are lumping together "incarnate build" with "billion+ inf build" 

You would be surprised how many casual players know nothing about incarnates.

[JediDave]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

  

No insult. I'm not as clever or humorous as I think sometimes. 

 

Troo.

 

1 hour ago, Troo said:

  

I believe I was saying, let me paraphrase: 'hey, that's their experience. it's not wrong. it's their point of view, it's valid even if your experience is different'. This is why I mentioned context.

 

Player A: "My plant character is not the same, it sucks now"

Player B: "Plant is better now so your character doesn't suck, it's actually better"

 

That's some Obi-Wan Kenobi jedi shit there.

 

I interpreted it as "this is my experience and I represent the average player and you are all talking about fringe, far from average experiences" which, I admit, may have been off the mark. I'm more than willing to leave well enough alone and agree to disagree, but the wall of text responding to me making a comment on incarnates being not an average experience felt very personal attackish and I may have responded to that more than the content of the post.

 

Continuation of "obi wan kenobi shit" still feels a bit personal attackish on a name 12 year old me came up with though. Like if I was mocking your ability to spell due to your name.

 

 

1 hour ago, Force Redux said:

Don't get into the mud guys. We all love CoH and controllers. Let's move on... "hey how about those Bears?"

>_>

🙂

I love lamp. and da bears.

[Troo]

4 minutes ago, JediDave said:

Like if I was mocking your ability to spell due to your name.

 

Hey, that's fair game. 

Full disclosure: 'Troo' was an alt of the global 'Tru' which was in response to a request to change from 'Gy' by staff waaaay back. I spelz gud.

[Force Redux]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

 

Hey, that's fair game. 

Full disclosure: 'Troo' was an alt of the global 'Tru' which was in response to a request to change from 'Gy' by staff waaaay back. I spelz gud.

 

Troo story? 🙃