Giant Monsters should have their own map marker.

[Mystoc]

for example, when there is a fire in steel canyon it's considered an event so it's marked on the map so everyone knows where to go, the same should be done with GMs as well. Generally, people will use the $loc command to let others know where to go but a feature like this would still be helpful.

 

yes, external tools like vidiotmaps do mark where GMs can possibly spawn but not everyone uses them, also with the current event Winter Lords are being spawned in constantly and then abandoned so now no one knows where to find them at all!

 

I understand some people do like exploring and the sense of discovery and not instantly having info given to them so perhaps a middle ground could be: Giant Monsters wouldn't be marked on the map until they are targeted by a player for the first time?

 

Edited December 11 by Mystoc

[tidge]

This would make them too easy to hunt. The only GM I would support getting its own marker is the Arachnos Flier, because of its very limited time in zone and its peculiar mechanics (different flight paths, different starting points)

[Uun]

What about amending the system messages announcing the spawning of a GM to include its location?

[Mystoc]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

This would make them too easy to hunt. The only GM I would support getting its own marker is the Arachnos Flier, because of its very limited time in zone and its peculiar mechanics (different flight paths, different starting points)

that is why I said don't mark them on the map until the first player has found and targeted a GM for this first time, once player has found them, they announce the coordinates in chat anyway, so the hunt is over.

 

this is more about making it easier for players who come after the GM is first discovered the default question always asked in broadcast is "where is the GM?" it's great we can share coordinates now in chat this is just an extension of that feature since both mark the map with a location for the player to go to.

 

[Krimson]

Can we have a fireman blowing a whistle while handing out canisters of Giant Monster repellent?

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Krimson said:

Can we have a fireman blowing a whistle while handing out canisters of Giant Monster repellent?

Dammit. Fresh out of Lusca-repellent.

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, Krimson said:

Can we have a fireman blowing a whistle while handing out canisters of Giant Monster repellent?

 

[BasiliskXVIII]

5 hours ago, tidge said:

This would make them too easy to hunt. The only GM I would support getting its own marker is the Arachnos Flier, because of its very limited time in zone and its peculiar mechanics (different flight paths, different starting points)

Is "hunting" the GM really considered a "challenge"? You go to the zone and visit the 10 spots or so that the monsters spawn. 

 

Besides, if we're getting into the narrative of the matter, aren't giant monster attacks in fiction generally pretty obvious? The Kaiju scene in the Superman movie isn't predicated on a prolonged sequence of figuring out where he is. 

[Rudra]

19 minutes ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

Is "hunting" the GM really considered a "challenge"? You go to the zone and visit the 10 spots or so that the monsters spawn. 

 

Besides, if we're getting into the narrative of the matter, aren't giant monster attacks in fiction generally pretty obvious? The Kaiju scene in the Superman movie isn't predicated on a prolonged sequence of figuring out where he is. 

Kaiju attacks also include destroyed city blocks, military callups, a lot of dead people caught in the attack, and rampant news reports and government announcements about it with instructions. Giant monsters in City of Heroes pretty much keep to themselves. Kraken in Perez Park doesn't move out of the park area into the streets. Caleb hovers over his island. Eochai is reported to the players as a sighting by students with no matching reports of casualties or damage. Jack in Irons keeps to his woods unless he and Eochai are moving to their usual battlefield. Even Lusca just patiently sits there looking menacing but apparently only taking in the sights unless someone gets close. (I only know of one person that Lusca eats in the game.) And so on. So not exactly a fair comparison. Especially in a city that daily sees giant monsters, invasions, and various criminal acts done in plain view of everyone; so a less than panicked response and manic reporting can be expected.

[BasiliskXVIII]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Kaiju attacks also include destroyed city blocks, military callups, a lot of dead people caught in the attack, and rampant news reports and government announcements about it with instructions. Giant monsters in City of Heroes pretty much keep to themselves. Kraken in Perez Park doesn't move out of the park area into the streets. Caleb hovers over his island. Eochai is reported to the players as a sighting by students with no matching reports of casualties or damage. Jack in Irons keeps to his woods unless he and Eochai are moving to their usual battlefield. Even Lusca just patiently sits there looking menacing but apparently only taking in the sights unless someone gets close. (I only know of one person that Lusca eats in the game.) And so on. So not exactly a fair comparison. Especially in a city that daily sees giant monsters, invasions, and various criminal acts done in plain view of everyone; so a less than panicked response and manic reporting can be expected.

 

How much of this is because of intentional design choices and how much because of limitations in the game engine and inertia, though? Presumably people in the setting are meant to be legitimately threatened by the presence of Giant Monsters even though they're technically only depicted as passively moving through the map, much in the same way that purse snatching victims in the game are at no actual threat from the purse snatchers. They can play tug of war with a purse up until the moment they're engaged or they despawn. I'm in a mission as I write this where Devouring Earth are putatively "invading" a Portal Corp lab, threatening scientists. I'm in no particular rush to save them because, well, the Devouring Earth's "invasion" mostly looks like standing in hallways disguised as trees and there's no fail state to this mission where the scientists can actually be harmed in any way.

So we kind of are expected and conditioned to ascribe a level of implicit "hostility"  and "urgency" to everything in the game that isn't necessarily reflected in the actions of the NPCs. If you're going into Boomtown to fight Babbage, it's assumed it's because he's actually a threat and not just because you're a big game hunter. If Jurassik appears to be just standing there, it's because Cryptic didn't want to dedicate the time and system resources to cluttering the area around him with tanks and military personnel in an area where there would also potentially be a zone's worth of players and particle effects when he was fought. Villainside, sure, it's fair to assume you're deliberately trying to take down the biggest, baddest thing around for bragging rights. But it's very much at odds with the ethos of heroside, especially at launch. 

[Rudra]

23 minutes ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

 

How much of this is because of intentional design choices and how much because of limitations in the game engine and inertia, though? Presumably people in the setting are meant to be legitimately threatened by the presence of Giant Monsters even though they're technically only depicted as passively moving through the map, much in the same way that purse snatching victims in the game are at no actual threat from the purse snatchers. They can play tug of war with a purse up until the moment they're engaged or they despawn. I'm in a mission as I write this where Devouring Earth are putatively "invading" a Portal Corp lab, threatening scientists. I'm in no particular rush to save them because, well, the Devouring Earth's "invasion" mostly looks like standing in hallways disguised as trees and there's no fail state to this mission where the scientists can actually be harmed in any way.

So we kind of are expected and conditioned to ascribe a level of implicit "hostility"  and "urgency" to everything in the game that isn't necessarily reflected in the actions of the NPCs. If you're going into Boomtown to fight Babbage, it's assumed it's because he's actually a threat and not just because you're a big game hunter. If Jurassik appears to be just standing there, it's because Cryptic didn't want to dedicate the time and system resources to cluttering the area around him with tanks and military personnel in an area where there would also potentially be a zone's worth of players and particle effects when he was fought. Villainside, sure, it's fair to assume you're deliberately trying to take down the biggest, baddest thing around for bragging rights. But it's very much at odds with the ethos of heroside, especially at launch. 

I chalk a lot of it up to game engine limitations, no doubt. Except that we do have roaming GMs in the game like (Ghost of) Scrapyard. And he attacks everything he comes across (that can be attacked) except for the Scrapyarders. So in (Ghost of) Scrapyard, we see that GMs can differentiate between what they consider valid and invalid targets. Then you have the Arachnos Flier. That is an Arachnos vehicle flying its regular patrol. Different routes, but still its regular patrol. In Arachnos territory. Why would anyone in Grandville be reporting the Arachnos Flier's location? It isn't a threat to anyone other than the Arachnoids and the players that choose to fight it. Kraken I chalk up to being lost and wanting to stay in "familiar" territory with the rest of the Hydra, because the Rikti transplanted them and they aren't eager to run around and face who knows what in this strange, noisy world. While Jack in Irons would per myth be more than happy to murder anyone he sees, Eochai would not. Eochai as a champion of the Fir bolg would be more interested in protecting Fir bolg territory and driving off the Tuatha de Danan. And if the Fir bolg have claimed the Misty Woods, that is the area he will stay in and defend. (At least until Jack in Irons makes his move leading to the war in the valley.) Jurassik and Babbage are already in destroyed or "lost" parts of the city, and don't have a lore reason to move beyond those areas except for when Babbage is sent after the players in the TF. The Goliath War Walker is already at a known location every time it is reported by the game as being active, so now it just falls to the players to intercept and destroy it before the Council finds a way to have its shield available beyond their base's perimeter. (So the Goliath War Walker is already contained for the time being.) So there are lore reasons why some GMs would keep to themselves even as there are game limitations preventing others from marauding the way we would expect them to.

 

Edit: And then using the Troll Rave and what we would normally expect as a response to giant monsters, for those giant monsters that would rampage, I would expect a PPD or Longbow presence establishing a cordon. Maybe the military too like in the RWZ (the tanks) and that one TF. And yet, we don't. The game absolutely can handle having PPD, Longbow, the military, or even Vanguard as non-interactive parts of the GM encounter like with the Troll Rave, but there is no such presence. With such a presence, I could see the giant monster's position being posted on the map, but players finding them having them be added to the map? Our characters don't have that kind of influence in the city.

 

Edited December 12 by Rudra

[BasiliskXVIII]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I chalk a lot of it up to game engine limitations, no doubt. Except that we do have roaming GMs in the game like (Ghost of) Scrapyard. And he attacks everything he comes across (that can be attacked) except for the Scrapyarders. So in (Ghost of) Scrapyard, we see that GMs can differentiate between what they consider valid and invalid targets. Then you have the Arachnos Flier. That is an Arachnos vehicle flying its regular patrol. Different routes, but still its regular patrol. In Arachnos territory. Why would anyone in Grandville be reporting the Arachnos Flier's location? It isn't a threat to anyone other than the Arachnoids and the players that choose to fight it. Kraken I chalk up to being lost and wanting to stay in "familiar" territory with the rest of the Hydra, because the Rikti transplanted them and they aren't eager to run around and face who knows what in this strange, noisy world. While Jack in Irons would per myth be more than happy to murder anyone he sees, Eochai would not. Eochai as a champion of the Fir bolg would be more interested in protecting Fir bolg territory and driving off the Tuatha de Danan. And if the Fir bolg have claimed the Misty Woods, that is the area he will stay in and defend. (At least until Jack in Irons makes his move leading to the war in the valley.) Jurassik and Babbage are already in destroyed or "lost" parts of the city, and don't have a lore reason to move beyond those areas except for when Babbage is sent after the players in the TF. The Goliath War Walker is already at a known location every time it is reported by the game as being active, so now it just falls to the players to intercept and destroy it before the Council finds a way to have its shield available beyond their base's perimeter. (So the Goliath War Walker is already contained for the time being.) So there are lore reasons why some GMs would keep to themselves even as there are game limitations preventing others from marauding the way we would expect them to.

The way I see it, if this were the intended reading, then you are explicitly the bad guy for fighting most GMs blueside. You shouldn't be getting rewarded with merits and badges, you should be getting cancelled.

 

Picture it: A 20' slime monster shows up in the middle of Central Park one day. It's just sort of... well, there. It wanders a bit, but otherwise it's just big and ugly. First thing that happens is a military cordon and barriers being erected out of an "abundance of caution". But it doesn't really care, it just idly paces around. Within a week, someone's selling merch near Columbus Circle for the "Central Park Slime". By the next it's a local mascot. As its patterns become familiar, the military presence eases, and probably eventually just becomes a knee-high fence with "no entry" signs.

 

Then someone comes along and destroys it? People would be up in arms! You'd be getting literal death threats for harming the Central Park Slime, much less destroying it. Hell, look how defensive some people get for attacking Sally.

 

If the Kraken is passive, I take that to be entirely because the AI logic that allows Scrapyard to actively attack things around him did not exist until I7 when he was added. 

[Rudra]

25 minutes ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

The way I see it, if this were the intended reading, then you are explicitly the bad guy for fighting most GMs blueside. You shouldn't be getting rewarded with merits and badges, you should be getting cancelled.

 

Picture it: A 20' slime monster shows up in the middle of Central Park one day. It's just sort of... well, there. It wanders a bit, but otherwise it's just big and ugly. First thing that happens is a military cordon and barriers being erected out of an "abundance of caution". But it doesn't really care, it just idly paces around. Within a week, someone's selling merch near Columbus Circle for the "Central Park Slime". By the next it's a local mascot. As its patterns become familiar, the military presence eases, and probably eventually just becomes a knee-high fence with "no entry" signs.

 

Then someone comes along and destroys it? People would be up in arms! You'd be getting literal death threats for harming the Central Park Slime, much less destroying it. Hell, look how defensive some people get for attacking Sally.

 

If the Kraken is passive, I take that to be entirely because the AI logic that allows Scrapyard to actively attack things around him did not exist until I7 when he was added. 

That would hold true if Paragon City were Ye Olde Average US City, but it isn't. After the 2nd Rikti War, large parts of the city were simply lost. Perez Park is one of those parts. It is not considered to be part of Paragon City for the purposes of accepting tips (other than the explore tips). There is no police force present there. There aren't even civilians in the zone other than the Circle of Thorns sacrifices, and the Circle of Thorns are already known for kidnapping people and moving them to other locations for their rituals. So having a large slime monster in an area already known to be overrun by slime monsters in a part of the city that is deemed "lost" and not under Paragon City control but rather held/owned by the different gangs/factions that have filled in isn't something for the city and its official defenders to worry about at this time. (Our characters despite their registrations are not official defenders the way the PPD and even Freedom Corps are.) The entire zone of Perez Park is already cordoned off from the public with only heroes officially coming and going. Now if the city were to launch a recovery effort to take back Perez Park and it becomes a normalized part of the city with all the features we see in other zones like Brickstown? Then I can see the PPD and/or Freedom Corps (by means of Longbow) establishing a cordon for Kraken, because now the entire zone itself will no longer be cordoned off. Just like Boomtown. It is already starting rebuilding, but it is still cordoned off from the public other than the workers that can only be found at the zone entrance area. And even at that, there is precedent, though not in City of Heroes, for a monster in a park in the middle of town that gets ignored despite how dangerous and aggressive said monster is. In one of the Fallout games, there is a mutant that lives in the park and the people in the area simply stay away from it, giving it no further thought. (Though they did post warning signs around the area. And no one sheds a tear as far as I know of when you kill said monster. It was simply a part of their lives that is no longer there, and they have lots of other things to worry about still.)

 

Edited December 12 by Rudra
Edited to correct "it" to "It" twice.

[Glacier Peak]

Not needed

[BasiliskXVIII]

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That would hold true if Paragon City were Ye Olde Average US City, but it isn't. After the 2nd Rikti War, large parts of the city were simply lost. Perez Park is one of those parts. It is not considered to be part of Paragon City for the purposes of accepting tips (other than the explore tips). There is no police force present there. There aren't even civilians in the zone other than the Circle of Thorns sacrifices, and the Circle of Thorns are already known for kidnapping people and moving them to other locations for their rituals. So having a large slime monster in an area already known to be overrun by slime monsters in a part of the city that is deemed "lost" and not under Paragon City control but rather held/owned by the different gangs/factions that have filled in isn't something for the city and its official defenders to worry about at this time. (Our characters despite their registrations are not official defenders the way the PPD and even Freedom Corps are.) The entire zone of Perez Park is already cordoned off from the public with only heroes officially coming and going. Now if the city were to launch a recovery effort to take back Perez Park and it becomes a normalized part of the city with all the features we see in other zones like Brickstown? Then I can see the PPD and/or Freedom Corps (by means of Longbow) establishing a cordon for Kraken, because now the entire zone itself will no longer be cordoned off. Just like Boomtown. It is already starting rebuilding, but it is still cordoned off from the public other than the workers that can only be found at the zone entrance area. And even at that, there is precedent, though not in City of Heroes, for a monster in a park in the middle of town that gets ignored despite how dangerous and aggressive said monster is. In one of the Fallout games, there is a mutant that lives in the park and the people in the area simply stay away from it, giving it no further thought. (Though they did post warning signs around the area. And no one sheds a tear as far as I know of when you kill said monster. It was simply a part of their lives that is no longer there, and they have lots of other things to worry about still.)

 

If the logic is:
– the city doesn’t care because it’s outside normal civic space,
– no one important is supposed to be there anyway,
– and danger is acceptable as long as it’s geographically contained,

 

Now we're just asking "what if the Central Park Slime shows up in New Jersey instead?"

 

Jokes aside, we're really getting away from the suggestion being made - that GMs might be marked on the map. I don't think it is possible, as suggested by OP, that the map flag go up only when the GM is first targeted, but I do like the idea of it being marked on the map when it is there. We already get notifications when it spawns, having an obvious marker while it's there might make it more likely that players going through Perez go "oh, hey, Kraken's up. let's throw a team together and get some merits." Yes, it means that the extra 30 seconds or so that it takes to find it if you're in a dedicated hunting team is eliminated, but I think the additional visibility outweighs whatever may be lost on that front.

 

I wouldn't say it's a high priority, but I think it'd be a fine addition.

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

If the logic is:
– the city doesn’t care because it’s outside normal civic space,
– no one important is supposed to be there anyway,
– and danger is acceptable as long as it’s geographically contained,

 

Now we're just asking "what if the Central Park Slime shows up in New Jersey instead?"

 

Jokes aside, we're really getting away from the suggestion being made - that GMs might be marked on the map. I don't think it is possible, as suggested by OP, that the map flag go up only when the GM is first targeted, but I do like the idea of it being marked on the map when it is there. We already get notifications when it spawns, having an obvious marker while it's there might make it more likely that players going through Perez go "oh, hey, Kraken's up. let's throw a team together and get some merits." Yes, it means that the extra 30 seconds or so that it takes to find it if you're in a dedicated hunting team is eliminated, but I think the additional visibility outweighs whatever may be lost on that front.

 

I wouldn't say it's a high priority, but I think it'd be a fine addition.

I agree to disagree.

[BasiliskXVIII]

9 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I agree to disagree.

If I were crowdsourcing permission to have an opinion, this might be of concern.

[tidge]

3 hours ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

Is "hunting" the GM really considered a "challenge"? You go to the zone and visit the 10 spots or so that the monsters spawn. 

It sounds like the OP considers checking established spawn points as a challenge.

[Mystoc]

29 minutes ago, tidge said:

It sounds like the OP considers checking established spawn points as a challenge.

 

what's wrong asking for the game to more welcoming to new players? I myself don't personally need this change but that doesn't mean it isn't a good one to add.

 

new players do not know established Giant Monster spawns they also don't have the vidiotmaps mod installed either. Ultimately though this change does benefit me and you too Tidge if the game is less confusing for new players, they are more likely to stick around and become permanent members of this community/game.

 

 

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Mystoc said:

 

what's wrong asking for the game to more welcoming to new players? I myself don't personally need this change but that doesn't mean it isn't a good one to add.

 

new players do not know established Giant Monster spawns they also don't have the vidiotmaps mod installed either. Ultimately though this change does benefit me and you too Tidge if the game is less confusing for new players, they are more likely to stick around and become permanent members of this community/game.

 

 

Ah, the new player argument. Because the Broadcast, General, Help, and LFG channels are just so difficult to access and use, and experienced players are just so unwilling to answer questions or help newer players learn.

[Krimson]

25 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Ah, the new player argument. Because the Broadcast, General, Help, and LFG channels are just so difficult to access and use, and experienced players are just so unwilling to answer questions or help newer players learn.

I see how players talk in-game. I can totally see why newer players wouldn't want to ask questions there. Heck, I can see why players would be discouraged from asking questions here in the forums; you're opening yourself up to grief.

[Mystoc]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Ah, the new player argument. Because the Broadcast, General, Help, and LFG channels are just so difficult to access and use, and experienced players are just so unwilling to answer questions or help newer players learn.

relying on experienced players to make the game more understandable can work and its great others are willing to help but that's not a constant reliable factor what if a player is on a low pop server or plays at odd hours?

 

why is better to hope there is someone who can help then instead directly help the player trying to learn? recently they just removed the legacy incarnate crafting recipes because they were too costly compared to new the alternative homecoming added in. As long-time players we know the better choice and would have explained it to new players but instead the devs choose to simplify the crafting process and remove that choice entirely because sometimes there isn't always another player who can help.

 

both things can be true that making the game easier to understand is good and that we have an awesome community that most of the time are available to answer questions.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Mystoc said:

relying on experienced players to make the game more understandable can work and its great others are willing to help but that's not a constant reliable factor what if a player is on a low pop server or plays at odd hours?

The forums has guides. The wiki is available. Google exists. There are even YouTube videos. Pity the poor new players and the wealth of information available to them that apparently only seasoned players have, can find, and hoard.

[Krimson]

Save some trouble and post a sign that says "Figure it out yourself!" or the equivalent "Git gud." Or even better, just ignore new people and let them play the game on their own. 

[Rudra]

27 minutes ago, Krimson said:

Save some trouble and post a sign that says "Figure it out yourself!" or the equivalent "Git gud." Or even better, just ignore new people and let them play the game on their own. 

People have to make a forum account to have a game account. The home page of the forums has the Getting Started link (needed to set up the game), Homecoming Launcher link (needed to run the game), Tools, Utilities, and Downloads link (which has vidiotmaps pinned as the second entry), the Archetypes forums where discussions on the specific AT are held (and I believe includes builds), the Guides link, the Badges link, the Mission Architect link, and the Market link. All of that on the very first page people access to even have a game account. Add to that the willingness of players to answer questions and help, Google searches, and the wiki, and new players have vastly more information on this very ancient and heavily documented game than ever before. And they aren't stupid. These "please think of the new players" arguments are based on the idea that new players are so inept that they can't make use of the information the game itself provides, the forums they have to make an account on to even play, or the chat channels. And that is an insulting argument to make.

 

Edit: Oh yeah! I think there is a Discord too!

 

Edit again: How are new players supposed to learn the game? They play it. If they have questions or difficulties? They ask older players. If there aren't older players available to ask? There are guides, the wiki, and more. How is any of that "figure it out for yourself" or "git gud"?

 

Edited December 13 by Rudra