Addressing the Tanker Brute Connundrum.

[Haijinx]

Also note pylon type results don't take into account the massive disparity in damage caps.  

 

Go from solo to a duo with a /kin corruptor.  

 

Now the Brute is miles ahead.  

[Profit]

16 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Sure, but the tanker is also contributing more -res to a team which can make up for it in AV fights.

If the tanker is using their T1 power, which they are probably not due to how fast mobs die at IO/Incarnate levels.

[Auroxis]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Also note pylon type results don't take into account the massive disparity in damage caps.  

 

Go from solo to a duo with a /kin corruptor.  

 

Now the Brute is miles ahead.  

With the -res debuffs and procs the difference isn't as much. Kin doesn't have -res and while Brute has a higher damage cap it already uses a lot of it for Fury and has less base damage.

[Auroxis]

1 minute ago, Profit said:

If the tanker is using their T1 power, which they are probably not due to how fast mobs die at IO/Incarnate levels.

For regular mobs I'd agree, not for AV's/EB's though.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Suggesting that the overlap works both ways is kind of laughable.  

 

IO Brute taking over tanks role for 95% of content but also doing IO near-scrapperish damage = true

 

IO tank able to do IO near-scrapperish damage = false.  

 

If the overlap worked both ways, this thread would lose 75% of its replies.  

IO SR stalker/scrapper taking over the tank role and doubling-tripling the damage from either tank or brute = true. 

 

There's ways in some sets - not all - to make tanks damage on par with brutes.

 

I'm not sure anymore what the issue is aside from bruised or inflated egos with what people feel the tank should do or the brute should not do-they are basically the same AT, because you can make tanks have great damage without having fury ramp up. 

 

I have 2 tanks that can tank more content and outdamage their brute counterpart in doing so. 

 

How do I know?  Because I rolled both sets - tank and brute on beta and the tank was better.  I test everything on beta before I roll it out.

[Haijinx]

The scrapper or stalker won't have the same aggro management. 

 

Most won't even have a taunt aura

 

They can be built survive the attacks though 

[Infinitum]

12 hours ago, Haijinx said:

The scrapper or stalker won't have the same aggro management. 

 

Most won't even have a taunt aura

 

They can be built survive the attacks though 

You won't need it because you are literally one or two shotting everything. And firing off your AOE every attack chain gets their attention so they have enough agro management if you know what you are doing with them.  I literally play every AT like a tank, if I can't play one like a tank - the sets I chose won't allow it for some reason- I stop playing that one and roll something else.

 

My point is, the issues with brutes survivability being equal to tank survivability not being fare is a non issue because you can literally make any AT a tank with defense and other bonuses and power selection synergy especially SR based ATs.

 

The game isn't built around tanks being the only meatshield anymore.  I'm not sure it ever was.

 

Tanks have a role though - a super tough easy to build good melee dealer.  If that doesn't fit a persons play style its time to roll something that does - because that's what they are and what the do.  I've never once been kicked off a team because I couldn't deal enough damage though.

 

If you are looking for a disparity in the game, play on a team of 8 controllers - they don't even have to be setted out -  and watch how fast the enemies drop and never even threaten for that matter.

 

I think this game was built around debuff, buff and control more than anything else.  All of the melee ATs play fine and are fun IMO.  Are there some underperforming sets?  Yep in all ATs there is.

 

Power synergy means a lot too combine that with power synergy and set bonus synergy that's how you get the damage on the tanks, the durability from the brutes, and the scrappers and stalkers too for that matter.  This game has versatility to do just about anything you want it to do, and that what makes it great IMO that you can tank with a stalker, or blitz maps with a controller super team.  Plenty to choose from.

 

I can demonstrate any of what I'm saying here also if someone doesn't believe me for some reason.

 

Im not against buffing tanks either, it would make the 4 tanks I have happier in fact, but there is nothing wrong with them now.

[Cementi]

On 7/13/2019 at 7:52 AM, Profit said:

 

Have to be careful adding bruising in such a way because Tanks are right on the edge of being brokenly overpowered as is.

This made me laugh. Not trying to be rude just honestly I let out a rueful chuckle when I read this.

Damage output is it's own kind of damage mitigation. Brutes are vastly superior to tanks in every way. Their small difference in surviveabilty is easily mitigated. The first alpha is the only problem you have to contend with and that is easily mitigated with inspirations or teammate buffs as your actual surviveability caps are the same as a tankers. By the time those inspirations wear off your superior damage has allready reduced the mob and thus it's damage potential significantly.

I loved playing tanks. However what drew me to red side when it came out was just how much better Brutes were. Then when cross faction stuff happened there really was no reason to ever play a tank after that.

Tanks are terrible. I keep wanting to play one as I loved being the hard target but I can never stick with them and end up reverting to brutes. You can play the exact same powersets and often the Brute will be able to run into a mob and survive easier simply because it does not have to take the damage for as long.
 

Tanks need a higher damage cap and some kind of mechanic that makes them stand out. Right now their inherrent is pretty meh......as brutes get half of it and it works just fine. Tanks need something more. Maybe a fury like mechanic that increases when your teammates are attacked and or damaged. Kind of a hybrid of fury and the defenders inherrent vigilance. Just being slightly better at agro management when agro management on a brute is easy does not cut it.

Another option that I think is interesting but I think would be hard to code would be to make tanks more receptive to buffs and healing. Raise their caps and make it so any buff directed at a tank gets a buff. Ie if you throw a sonic shield at a tank that normally gives 20% resistance maybe now it gives 22%. Or you throw a 100 hit point heal at them and it heals for 110. Hit a tank with a fulcrum shift for 250% damage and they actually get a 275% buff. Tanks really are the team melee archtype. Something like this would reinforce this mentality without changing how the archtype is played.

However to make that last suggestion work you need to also increase some of the Tankers caps. We will see. I hope that homecoming can fix this issue as I would much rather play a tank but till then I will likely keep playing brutes and the tanks I do try will probably stall in the 30's.

 

[Cementi]

On 8/30/2019 at 6:16 PM, Infinitum said:

IO SR stalker/scrapper taking over the tank role and doubling-tripling the damage from either tank or brute = true. 

 

There's ways in some sets - not all - to make tanks damage on par with brutes.

 

I'm not sure anymore what the issue is aside from bruised or inflated egos with what people feel the tank should do or the brute should not do-they are basically the same AT, because you can make tanks have great damage without having fury ramp up. 

 

I have 2 tanks that can tank more content and outdamage their brute counterpart in doing so. 

 

How do I know?  Because I rolled both sets - tank and brute on beta and the tank was better.  I test everything on beta before I roll it out.

1. No agro management. You might take the alpha but you are not drawing agro. The problem is you probably expect everyone to have fully io'd characters all at defense cap. This is an IO issue. It should not be possible for a non defense set character to get to defense caps with IO's but I gave up that debate back in live when people lost their shit at the idea.

2. Lol, no tank can out damage a brute in a team. The brute damage cap is so much higher that even the subpar brute sets will out damage the good tank sets. Also comparing the best of one to the worst of the other is not a fair comparison.

 

3. This comment really has no other point but to insult those that like tanks so hardly worth responding to other than saying I disagree they are basicly the same AT. If they were this thread likely would not exist.

 

4. BS end of story. Solo comparing the best tank damage combo vs the worst brute combo might put the Tank ahead  but as I said in #2 that is not a fair comparison.

 

5. See #4.

 

[Haijinx]

19 hours ago, Infinitum said:

You won't need it because you are literally one or two shotting everything. And firing off your AOE every attack chain gets their attention so they have enough agro management if you know what you are doing with them.  I literally play every AT like a tank, if I can't play one like a tank - the sets I chose won't allow it for some reason- I stop playing that one and roll something else.

Ok, so my Stalker attacks some group of +4s, full of bosses.  My damage is pretty good, but I can't 1-2 shot +4 bosses.  I have 50 Def, and pretty good resists, so the whole alpha comes in and my green bar doesn't move.   Then that Sidekicked Blaster behind me throws an explosive blast.  All those mobs I just aggro'd ignore me and attack the blaster, since I don't have Taunt.  Or any Taunt attached to my attacks.  Or Gauntlet.  Or a Taunt Aura.  Or even a level 4 threat level. 

 

So I didn't really "Tank" anything there.  I just took the Alpha. 

 

Which on a lot of teams is all you need.  Maybe our team had a FF Defender or whatever and the Blaster is fine.   But a Stalker can't really "Tank".  That is all I meant.  

 

[Kimuji]

Yes, sturdy ≠ tank

[Infinitum]

6 hours ago, Cementi said:

1. No agro management. You might take the alpha but you are not drawing agro. The problem is you probably expect everyone to have fully io'd characters all at defense cap. This is an IO issue. It should not be possible for a non defense set character to get to defense caps with IO's but I gave up that debate back in live when people lost their shit at the idea.

2. Lol, no tank can out damage a brute in a team. The brute damage cap is so much higher that even the subpar brute sets will out damage the good tank sets. Also comparing the best of one to the worst of the other is not a fair comparison.

 

3. This comment really has no other point but to insult those that like tanks so hardly worth responding to other than saying I disagree they are basicly the same AT. If they were this thread likely would not exist.

 

4. BS end of story. Solo comparing the best tank damage combo vs the worst brute combo might put the Tank ahead  but as I said in #2 that is not a fair comparison.

 

5. See #4.

 

So you really didnt make any points there. Because you really don't have a clue what you are talking about.

 

Have a nice day.

[Leogunner]

6 hours ago, Cementi said:

1. No agro management. You might take the alpha but you are not drawing agro. The problem is you probably expect everyone to have fully io'd characters all at defense cap. This is an IO issue. It should not be possible for a non defense set character to get to defense caps with IO's but I gave up that debate back in live when people lost their shit at the idea.
 

You don't need it.  Only about half my characters are IO'd for defense and none of them are capped for defense (my magic number is 1 purple from cap).  My blasters have contingency to deal with aggro and often times a lot of it.  I think the only characters of mine that don't are my Defenders who usually more or less have to dip out (Phase Shift, Personal Force Field, etc) when focused on but some can certainly tank.  And ontop of that, everybody has inspirations.  And players were doing soft cap defense before IOs.  Inspirations...

 

6 hours ago, Cementi said:

2. Lol, no tank can out damage a brute in a team. The brute damage cap is so much higher that even the subpar brute sets will out damage the good tank sets. Also comparing the best of one to the worst of the other is not a fair comparison.

 

I'd say an Offensively built Tanker (not even min/maxed, just something like Fire Melee paired with something offensive for armor) vs a Utility built Brute (basically, non-min/maxed, built to keep going rather than topping charts) on any team without /Kinetics (if you need a kinetics on your team just to function smoothly, I can start to formulate your problem)

 

6 hours ago, Cementi said:

3. This comment really has no other point but to insult those that like tanks so hardly worth responding to other than saying I disagree they are basicly the same AT. If they were this thread likely would not exist.

 

4. BS end of story. Solo comparing the best tank damage combo vs the worst brute combo might put the Tank ahead  but as I said in #2 that is not a fair comparison.

 

5. See #4.

 

You forgot to add some witty comment of "I have 5 reasons to.." or something to justify giving that many reasons so now you just look sans-wit here.  If you were just replying to individual statements from the quoted, you could have quoted those particular sentences and said the above once...or at the very least, if you were numbering your replies to coincide with a quote's separated statements, you could have numbered the quoted paragraphs for simplicity and clarity.  I mean, if you're going to try and insult someone, maybe put a little effort into it?  Or at least not make yourself so insult-able.

[Infinitum]

5 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Ok, so my Stalker attacks some group of +4s, full of bosses.  My damage is pretty good, but I can't 1-2 shot +4 bosses.  I have 50 Def, and pretty good resists, so the whole alpha comes in and my green bar doesn't move.   Then that Sidekicked Blaster behind me throws an explosive blast.  All those mobs I just aggro'd ignore me and attack the blaster, since I don't have Taunt.  Or any Taunt attached to my attacks.  Or Gauntlet.  Or a Taunt Aura.  Or even a level 4 threat level. 

 

So I didn't really "Tank" anything there.  I just took the Alpha. 

 

Which on a lot of teams is all you need.  Maybe our team had a FF Defender or whatever and the Blaster is fine.   But a Stalker can't really "Tank".  That is all I meant.  

 

Build up + AS + name your proc either double build up and or hide again + AS or AOE + build up proc again you could potentially have triple build up at that point.  I have 1 shotted a few bosses like that but 2 shotting is more common.  I utilize procs and mechanics to do this.

 

If your blaster sidekick is running with you against +4 unslotted without sets and pops an aoe behind you he deserves to die because y'all are power leveling it anyway and should know better.

 

If the blaster is setted out it will hardly bother it because a lot if the damage will miss it and then everything will be dead if you guys sustain the attack.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

You don't need it.  Only about half my characters are IO'd for defense and none of them are capped for defense (my magic number is 1 purple from cap).  My blasters have contingency to deal with aggro and often times a lot of it.  I think the only characters of mine that don't are my Defenders who usually more or less have to dip out (Phase Shift, Personal Force Field, etc) when focused on but some can certainly tank.  And ontop of that, everybody has inspirations.  And players were doing soft cap defense before IOs.  Inspirations...

 

I'd say an Offensively built Tanker (not even min/maxed, just something like Fire Melee paired with something offensive for armor) vs a Utility built Brute (basically, non-min/maxed, built to keep going rather than topping charts) on any team without /Kinetics (if you need a kinetics on your team just to function smoothly, I can start to formulate your problem)

 

You forgot to add some witty comment of "I have 5 reasons to.." or something to justify giving that many reasons so now you just look sans-wit here.  If you were just replying to individual statements from the quoted, you could have quoted those particular sentences and said the above once...or at the very least, if you were numbering your replies to coincide with a quote's separated statements, you could have numbered the quoted paragraphs for simplicity and clarity.  I mean, if you're going to try and insult someone, maybe put a little effort into it?  Or at least not make yourself so insult-able.

Now this guy gets it. 

 

 (if you need a kinetics on your team just to function smoothly, I can start to formulate your problem)

 

especially that part.

[Infinitum]

7 hours ago, Cementi said:

Tanks are terrible. I keep wanting to play one as I loved being the hard target but I can never stick with them and end up reverting to brutes. You can play the exact same powersets and often the Brute will be able to run into a mob and survive easier simply because it does not have to take the damage for as long.

This is a bit of an overexaggeration.

 

If you were on a brute and you had a kinetic or anything that put you at the damage cap, the rest of the team is still killing the mob faster than either brute or tank.

 

Unless you are wanting to centerpiece yourself yourself on the team doing the much higher content for them because they can't.

7 hours ago, Cementi said:

Their small difference in surviveabilty is easily mitigated. The first alpha is the only problem you have to contend with and that is easily mitigated with inspirations

If you are in any situation that requires you to pop inspirations to survive the alpha damage output isn't your biggest worry anyway.

 

The gap in damage between tank and brute isn't so great that it will hurt the tanks survivability.  It just won't, because if that were the case the team can't support the content you are playing anyway, which also means the brute isn't getting buffs to increase damage anyway because the team is already dead.

 

If the team does support the content brute, or tank damage is irrelevant at that point because the team is already killing faster than either single target can surpass - which is a good thing ultimately.

 

Absorb agro, alpha let the team do the rest move on to the next one.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Infinitum

[Vitruvius]

let tanks herd again, problem solved =D

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Build up + AS + name your proc either double build up and or hide again + AS or AOE + build up proc again you could potentially have triple build up at that point.  I have 1 shotted a few bosses like that but 2 shotting is more common.  I utilize procs and mechanics to do this.

 

If your blaster sidekick is running with you against +4 unslotted without sets and pops an aoe behind you he deserves to die because y'all are power leveling it anyway and should know better.

 

If the blaster is setted out it will hardly bother it because a lot if the damage will miss it and then everything will be dead if you guys sustain the attack.

Mmmk

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Mmmk

Believe me, dont believe me I dont really care, ive done it.

[Haijinx]

6 hours ago, Leogunner said:

You don't need it.  Only about half my characters are IO'd for defense and none of them are capped for defense (my magic number is 1 purple from cap).  My blasters have contingency to deal with aggro and often times a lot of it.  I think the only characters of mine that don't are my Defenders who usually more or less have to dip out (Phase Shift, Personal Force Field, etc) when focused on but some can certainly tank.  And ontop of that, everybody has inspirations.  And players were doing soft cap defense before IOs.  Inspirations...

 

 

Dealing with aggro you generate isn't the same thing as dealing with the aggro everyone else on the team generates.  

 

 

[Leogunner]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

Dealing with aggro you generate isn't the same thing as dealing with the aggro everyone else on the team generates.  

 

 

But tanks don't deal with the aggro the team generates, they deal with the aggro generated by themselves.  Taunt still requires threat otherwise taunt would be all you needed and since regardless of team composition, people will have inspirations and powers to mitigate the results of aggro, my statement still stands.

 

Further still, I don't believe Tanker or Brute have powers to "deal with" the aggro a Blaster generates (i.e. remove or decrease their threat level) outside of relativisticly putting themselves (the tank) highest on the threat list.  I suppose one can assume this is "dealing with" their aggro but then comes the question of how purposeful is drawing the attention from a boss with 12% health that's lying on its back and in the crosshairs of a 5-stacked defiance tier-4 blast?  Or a 50% health Lt that's got 3 holds stacked from the controller+stalker beating it up? Aggro management at its best is on AV and GM fights which amounts to a small percentage of overall content so it's not all loss...

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

But tanks don't deal with the aggro the team generates, they deal with the aggro generated by themselves.  Taunt still requires threat otherwise taunt would be all you needed and since regardless of team composition, people will have inspirations and powers to mitigate the results of aggro, my statement still stands.

 

Further still, I don't believe Tanker or Brute have powers to "deal with" the aggro a Blaster generates (i.e. remove or decrease their threat level) outside of relativisticly putting themselves (the tank) highest on the threat list.  I suppose one can assume this is "dealing with" their aggro but then comes the question of how purposeful is drawing the attention from a boss with 12% health that's lying on its back and in the crosshairs of a 5-stacked defiance tier-4 blast?  Or a 50% health Lt that's got 3 holds stacked from the controller+stalker beating it up? Aggro management at its best is on AV and GM fights which amounts to a small percentage of overall content so it's not all loss...

Tanks and Brutes generate much more Aggro relative to their damage than any other AT.  Making them the priority target. 

 

Thus the Blasters and whatever can do their thing without getting attacked.  You describe it in the second paragraph.  That is what I meant.   

 

Now sure you and the other guy say that job isn't really needed in a team where everyone has even reasonably priced IO builds, okay, I can buy that.  I've seen that.  It works fine.  But that's not Tanking.    

 

Of course the game doesn't start with IO builds.  I like to start slotting attuned sets and helpful uniques as soon as possible, but a lot of people wait till after 40.   Thus the tanking job is more important.  But the Brute quickly can do the job as good as the Tank with either IOs or a little Support.  Leading to this whole thread. 

 

 

[Foxfyre]

17 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Further still, I don't believe Tanker or Brute have powers to "deal with" the aggro a Blaster generates (i.e. remove or decrease their threat level) outside of relativisticly putting themselves (the tank) highest on the threat list.  I suppose one can assume this is "dealing with" their aggro but then comes the question of how purposeful is drawing the attention from a boss with 12% health that's lying on its back and in the crosshairs of a 5-stacked defiance tier-4 blast?  Or a 50% health Lt that's got 3 holds stacked from the controller+stalker beating it up? Aggro management at its best is on AV and GM fights which amounts to a small percentage of overall content so it's not all loss...

As I mentioned before.....bring whatever you want and go try to pull aggro off Profit.

Bring a Blaster.  Scrapper.  Stalker.  Whatever.  Do your best.  

Heck, I'll up the bet to 50 million.

[Leogunner]

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Tanks and Brutes generate much more Aggro relative to their damage than any other AT.  Making them the priority target. 

 

Thus the Blasters and whatever can do their thing without getting attacked.  You describe it in the second paragraph.  That is what I meant.   

 

Now sure you and the other guy say that job isn't really needed in a team where everyone has even reasonably priced IO builds, okay, I can buy that.  I've seen that.  It works fine.  But that's not Tanking.    

 

Of course the game doesn't start with IO builds.  I like to start slotting attuned sets and helpful uniques as soon as possible, but a lot of people wait till after 40.   Thus the tanking job is more important.  But the Brute quickly can do the job as good as the Tank with either IOs or a little Support.  Leading to this whole thread. 

 

 

You're replying to a quote about aggro management not being needed, not if taking an alpha is considered aggro management.

 

And an IO build isn't necessary for taking an alpha.  I can do it as a level 2 dominator.  It's called using an AoE immob while ducking behind something.  All the mobs turn to you while the guy next to you goes and punches some of them in the face.  The result: only some of the mob will turn on that melee rather than all of them at once.

6 minutes ago, Foxfyre said:

As I mentioned before.....bring whatever you want and go try to pull aggro off Profit.

Bring a Blaster.  Scrapper.  Stalker.  Whatever.  Do your best.  

Heck, I'll up the bet to 50 million.

 You must really like riding Profit's d***.  Good lord.

 

I have no idea why you even replied with this?  Is there a Profit on every team on the Homecoming servers now? lol

 

 

[Foxfyre]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

 You must really like riding Profit's d***.  Good lord.

 

I have no idea why you even replied with this?  Is there a Profit on every team on the Homecoming servers now? lol

 

 

ROFL.....

I've seen many try and fail to do exactly what you're saying is possible.

A good tanker does not lose aggro.  Period.