Fly speed cap

[urenemas]

What is the cap on fly speed? There's conflicting information between the Paragon Wiki and Pine's Designer. And for certainty's sake will reaching the cap on both fly and afterburner still stack?

[Venture]

cap is 58.63 so paragon wiki appears to have it correct.

 

Afterburner and fly technically dont stack as they're different things.

 

Afterburner technically doesn't make you faster, it just increases the flight speed cap.

 

That said, standard fly with one so is 73.17 mph so just activating afterburner would increase your flight speed by around 15 mph as it would boost the flight cap to above flights upper limit with one so: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits#Movement_Speed

 

 

 

 

[Solar Eagle2]

So does this mean there's no value in slotting flight enhancements in fly?  It certainly reads like that unless I am missing something.

[Venture]

So does this mean there's no value in slotting flight enhancements in fly?  It certainly reads like that unless I am missing something.

 

Exactly that.

 

 

[dtj714]

So does this mean there's no value in slotting flight enhancements in fly?  It certainly reads like that unless I am missing something.

 

Exactly that.

 

Uh, I don’t think you’re reading that right. At 50 with 3 SO’s slotted, Afterburner increases the cap to 86.5 mph. At 50 with 3 SO’s slotted, Fly’s speed is 85.2 mph. Add to that 2.93 mph for Swift (unslotted), which takes you to 88.13, or just over the cap

 

So, for maximum fly speed, you need to 3 slot Afterburner with SO’s to max out the cap, but then you also need to 3 slot Fly with SO’s in order to actually reach that cap. Tell me how I’m wrong?

 

Edit - Upon further consideration, it seems like the most practical thing to do is to 2 slot both Fly and Afterburner with SO’s. The cap with Afterburner would then be 82.5 mph, and Fly speed (including Swift) would be 82.61. So you’re sacrificing a few mph, but gaining 2 slots to use elsewhere.

[Erydanus]

I went on the test server to get the actual numbers. Slotting a flight Level 50 IO only made a difference in one case, as noted below. At level 50 using level 50 IOs:

 

Afterburner - 1 IO, Flightspeed cap 79.02

    Flight 1 IO: capped.

Afterburner - 2 IOs, Flightspeed cap 84.88.

    Flight 1 IO: 83.12, NOT capped [with a Flight IO in Swift, this would be 84.34 so BARELY not capped.]

    Flight 2 IO: capped at 84.88

Afterburner - 3 IOs, Flightspeed cap  87.14

    Flight 2IOs: capped at 87.14

 

So my conclusion is if you 3 slot Afterburner and 2 slot Fly you are capped at 87.14

If you are tight on slots and 2 slot Afterburner, 1 slot Fly, and stick a flight IO in Swift, you're at 83.12. If you want to go 4.02 mph faster it'll cost you 2 more slots.

[dtj714]

I went on the test server to get the actual numbers. Slotting a flight Level 50 IO only made a difference in one case, as noted below. At level 50 using level 50 IOs:

 

Afterburner - 1 IO, Flightspeed cap 79.02

    Flight 1 IO: capped.

Afterburner - 2 IOs, Flightspeed cap 84.88.

    Flight 1 IO: 83.12, NOT capped [with a Flight IO in Swift, this would be 84.34 so BARELY not capped.]

    Flight 2 IO: capped at 84.88

Afterburner - 3 IOs, Flightspeed cap  87.14

    Flight 2IOs: capped at 87.14

 

So my conclusion is if you 3 slot Afterburner and 2 slot Fly you are capped at 87.14

If you are tight on slots and 2 slot Afterburner, 1 slot Fly, and stick a flight IO in Swift, you're at 83.12. If you want to go 4.02 mph faster it'll cost you 2 more slots.

 

Clearly these values are different from what is on the wiki, and I don’t know if they are the same values as on the regular servers (the test server has beta code?).  Not sure what would be the reason for the discrepancy.

[Erydanus]

Nothing on the test server notes about movement speed adjustments... are there any accolades that boost movement? They dump a bunch of accolades on every character. The test character I made did not have incarnate powers and I only slotted fly, afterburner, and swift as noted.

[jack_nomind]

Nothing on the test server notes about movement speed adjustments... are there any accolades that boost movement? They dump a bunch of accolades on every character. The test character I made did not have incarnate powers and I only slotted fly, afterburner, and swift as noted.

 

No Accolade, but Swift boosts fly speed and will throw off all actual tests vs Fly power info.

 

What was the actual build (AT and powersets) of the test character you made?

[Erydanus]

Cold/Cold Brute. Of course Swift is inherent now but I slotted it only as noted, it was unslotted otherwise.

[dtj714]

I created a toon on the test server too, and the raw Fly values I got (using the free lvl 50 SO’s you can get from the merit vendor) were very close to those on the wiki - 66.58 with nothing slotted, 73.02 with 1 SO, 79.61 with 2, and 85.19 with 3. Assuming an additional 2.93 from Swift, those still don’t match Erydanus’ values. And I don’t see how you get the Afterburner cap values, as that information doesn’t seem to be displayed - not that I could find anywhere with just the basic interface anyway.

 

That said, I guess I now see the point of those who say it’s not worth it to add slots to Fly. Putting SO’s in just the single slots that come with the powers, Afterburner gets the cap to 77.7, and Fly + Swift gets you to about 76 - roughly a 30% increase over the base cap. 2 slotting gets you to 82.5, roughly an 8% increase, and 3 gets you to 86.5, or around a 4% increase. So clearly there are great diminishing returns after 1 slot, which is different from (all?) other powers.

[jack_nomind]

So clearly there are great diminishing returns after 1 slot, which is different from (all?) other powers.

 

I'm not clear on what you mean.  The enhanceable portion of Fly doesn't have diminishing returns beyond what ED would suggest, nor does Afterburner.  Do you mean that the speed cap doesn't adjust as you'd expect when you slot Afterburner?  (e.g., 1-slotting afterburner with a Fly SO seems to suggest that it raises the flight speed cap by 1.33x, but in fact only multiples the enhanced cap portion by 1.33)

[dtj714]

I mean that the net effect is that, with nothing slotted and no Afterburner, you’re at the basic cap of 58.63. 1 slot Fly and Afterburner with SO’s and you’re at about 76, a roughly 30% increase over the “base” value of 58.63. 2 slot each and you’re at 82.5, a further increase of 8%, or 40% over “base”. 3 slot each and you’re at 86.5 an increase of 4% or 47% over base.

 

In any other “Schedule A” power, slotting 1 SO gets you a 33.3% increase, 2 gets you 66.6%, and 3 gets you an additional ~29.4? (I forget what the actual DR/ED number is.). For Fly the results are nothing close to that, AND you have to slot another power to reach the maximum potential. It may very well be that the “enhanceable” portion is getting increased appropriately, but again the net result of all the dynamics is that you see a significant increase in speed with 1 slot in each power (Fly and Afterburner), and much less after that - about 17 mph, then about 6 mph, and finally 4 mph.

[Solvernia]

Most slot-efficient slotting to get as fast as possible is 2-slotted Afterburner and 1-slotted Fly for about 84 or so fly speed. Faster than Super Jump, at least.

[jack_nomind]

In any other “Schedule A” power, slotting 1 SO gets you a 33.3% increase, 2 gets you 66.6%, and 3 gets you an additional ~29.4? (I forget what the actual DR/ED number is.). For Fly the results are nothing close to that, AND you have to slot another power to reach the maximum potential. It may very well be that the “enhanceable” portion is getting increased appropriately, but again the net result of all the dynamics is that you see a significant increase in speed with 1 slot in each power (Fly and Afterburner), and much less after that - about 17 mph, then about 6 mph, and finally 4 mph.

 

Yeah.  But it isn't just Fly.  SS, SJ, and Fly all work pretty much similarly -- they start out so close to their respective speed caps that it doesn't take much to get them all the way there.  They've all also been sped up since i0.  (As far as having enhanceable and unenhanceable portions, a fair number of other powers work similarly.  And FWIW, Fly's combat speed suppression is unenhanceable so you can actually overcome it if you slot for enough speed.)

 

The alternative would be to either increase the base speed caps or slow the powers down enough that people "feel" more benefit from their enhancements.  There's no technical reason not to do the latter, but I can't help but think it would be unpopular.  The former wasn't practical on Live and afaik still isn't because Super Speed already goes just about as fast as the server can locate something in a crowded zone.  Giving Fly or SJ the same speed caps as SS, which is ground-only, kind of unfairly trivializes SS.  Afterburner was a workaround -- it gets Fly close to or even up to SS speeds, but the cost of an additional power and being in a self-only phase are supposed to keep things fair.  It provides a base cap increase of IIRC ~14, and enhances smoothly on Schedule A up to about ~28.

 

Personally I'd love it if it's possible for the speed caps to be increased with new architecture, or if at least going over the speed cap reduced travel powers' endurance costs.

[dtj714]

Most slot-efficient slotting to get as fast as possible is 2-slotted Afterburner and 1-slotted Fly for about 84 or so fly speed. Faster than Super Jump, at least.

 

Where are you getting these numbers from?  2 slotting AB with SO’s at 50 gets the cap to 82.5. 1 slotting Fly gets the speed to 73.17, plus 2.93 from Swift makes it about 76. You could 1 slot AB and still be under the cap, which would then be 77.7. This is all per the Paragon wiki, which nobody yet has said is wrong.

 

Edit - nevermind, I see now that both you and Eryandus are talking about using lvl 50 IOs not SOs, the later being what the wiki is based on. Assuming Eryandus’ numbers are correct, then using 50 IOs yes 2AB and 1 Fly seems to be best for both speed and efficiency.

[Erydanus]

FWIW, Fly's combat speed suppression is unenhanceable so you can actually overcome it if you slot for enough speed.

Oooh I'm gonna check on that. I think that would be HILARIOUS to achieve on the test server.

 

I do think the confusion in this post does underscore that SOs are obsolete. IOs were created as direct replacement for SOs and in part due to ED. The only thing I really like SOs for is as a benchmark for a minimum amount of enhancement to consider an enhancement "non-starter." (As in, say we're talking to someone about endurance problems and we ask if they have Stamina 3-slotted with SO-equivalent enhancements (SOEEs?), meaning actual SOs or 25+ IOs.) 

 

Maybe we should be moving away from enhancement-based terminology and saying "do you have the power enhanced to near 90% yet?" outside of cases such as this one, where the actual question is about the efficient allocation of slots based on the available values and the relevant soft caps. In this case, it just seemed obvious to me if we're trying to determine the absolute highest cap that means level 50 character with level 50 IOs. Let's keep in mind though it's possible to augment level 50 IOs to even higher levels, but I'm unsure if I can just get those items on the test server.

 

/Geek Off

[Noyjitat]

Save your slots and just use afterburner + prestige steam jump or prestige jump pack. Trick I learned on live. Look at the power details on them and they last more than long enough to travel across a map or to rotate during things like the msr. Unfortunately sometimes they enter a bugged state and are not usable after recharging.

 

[justicebeliever]

Save your slots and just use afterburner + prestige steam jump or prestige jump pack. Trick I learned on live. Look at the power details on them and they last more than long enough to travel across a map or to rotate during things like the msr. Unfortunately sometimes they enter a bugged state and are not usable after recharging.

 

Both the jump pack and steam pack stop “jumping” after a full 30 sec of continuous use.  After that they will not work again unless you move to a new zone.  If you turn them off before 30 sec, then it will fully recharge after 30 sec and continue to work in the same zone.  I believe it’s an inherited bug from Live.