Underrated: Dark/Poison

[Coyote]

Dark Control is a great set, but Poison is... not. But can we do something unusually effective with the pairing? Well, let's consider this gem from the combination of Frosticus and Sir Myshkin:

 

"Anyway, the whole thing I was getting to is the fact that with the damage sets available to Poison's version of the trap, that thing has a hypothetical damage output greater than Blackstar (on Defenders), on a 20-25/s potential recharge (purely just looking at global, and that's half the cooldown of the reduced Blackstar cooldown) for just the initial cast alone, never mind the fact that it just sits there for a while, still going off.

 

Now, that's not enough to make me role a Poison set, but that's very scary."

 

Well, let's see if we can persuade you a bit more, by looking at a couple of other powers from Dark Control. Fearsome Stare does about 52 damage per proc, and is your fight opener. It takes two procs, so you start with 100 damage and Fear the spawn. Now, let's look at Heart of Darkness... this is a PBAoE Stun power. Like other Controller AoE Stuns, it does AoE damage... but being a PB set, this opens it up to taking the PBAoE damage procs. This lets us put 4 damage procs in it (leaving 2 slots for Acc/Stun/Rech since it has a low base accuracy), for 256 damage (we're not going to use the Purple damage proc here).

 

So, we start off the fight with 100 from Fearsome Stare, then go into the mobs and put down Poison Trap. I think the damage from this is about 320 or so, since you're using the purple procs elsewhere. Now, add in Heart of Darkness for 256, and we open the fight with mobs Feared, -22% ToHit Debuff, Stunned (with more ToHit Debuff), and Held. And almost 700 damage. Nice, but not quite where we want to be.

 

Now, add in Sproing Attack. 45 base damage, slotted to 90 (this will get 5 Purple slots since it's the longest Recharge so we want to bring its Recharge down to the other powers, and also it does the most base damage)... 180 with Containment. 1 Purple proc and 1 normal do about 160 damage, so this adds in 340 or so. Now, we're up to a bit over 1000 damage as our AoE opener on every spawn. Plus frankly overkill levels of debuffing and mezzing. Add in Fissure just for amusement (and for FF procs, actually).

 

Dark Control is a very strong defensive set. It's known as being solid single-target damage, also. Now look at this combination's AoE damage and tell me, is this enough to make YOU roll a character who uses the Poison set? 😛

 

Oh, and for single-target damage, Paralytic Poison slots up to over 300 damage, Dark Grasp and Arcane Bolt are at about 240. The single-target Immob lags as usual, but a single-target chain of DG-AB-PP, DG-AB-immob will average over 100 DPS before any -Resist debuffs are put in. And Haunts add more single-target damage.

 

So... single-target damage looks good. AoE damage looks good. Control looks good. Debuffing looks good. Buffing looks... well, who doesn't want to make their teammates puke? 😛

 

Run, don't walk, to your nearest Hero Depot and grab one of these bad puppies (and they are kinda bad puppies, there's no way to housebreak them, and there are unnameable liquids ALL over the house once you bring one in, not to mention that you can't teach the Umbra Beast to leave the cats alone) while they're still on the shelves.

[schrodingercat]

I'm actually considering doing a plant/poison, primarily because sleeping or charming a pack and then dropping poison trap in the middle is fairly safe, but i'm not sure about doing this on higher content. i remember nemesis ignoring charm and sleep? but not fear.

 

my thought was for soloing, a charmed pack of -def/-res mobs would clear themselves out really quickly. also carrion creepers procced out would buzzsaw them down.

[Frosticus]

Haha yep. I have a pbaoe nuke-troller in the works. Dark/poison is as you describe. I dont like spring leap personally. I tried it with 4 dam procs but for whatever reason it didnt click for me. I might revisit it with a target location bind. . Fissure fits in like a dream.

 

Single target is more impressive than you might think as haunts are decent damage with two procs added. The dog despite high damage is skippable imo. 

[Frosticus]

3 hours ago, schrodingercat said:

I'm actually considering doing a plant/poison, primarily because sleeping or charming a pack and then dropping poison trap in the middle is fairly safe, but i'm not sure about doing this on higher content. i remember nemesis ignoring charm and sleep? but not fear.

 

my thought was for soloing, a charmed pack of -def/-res mobs would clear themselves out really quickly. also carrion creepers procced out would buzzsaw them down.

contagious confusion proc in seeds will confuse most anything. Venomous gas and envenom almost make confused mobs too effective. Minions sometimes vaporize for zero  xp ha.

 

 It is safe to drop trap. You wanna be in the middle to maximize venomous gas anyway. try melee hybrid. 

[amendara]

How is shadowfield in this build? Does it proc well or skippable?

[Coyote]

1 minute ago, amendara said:

How is shadowfield in this build? Does it proc well or skippable?

 

I'm not actually sure that it would proc well at all, since it's a drop power and they sometimes use the 10 second time for toggles rather than the long recharge of the power.

 

However, the sad truth is that even if it uses the power recharge, which would give the proc a 90% activation chance even if you max out the Recharge... it's still probably not worth it. 4 procs would get you to 256 damage, but only available like once a minute. The same type of slotting on a REAL nuke would probably get you to about 500 damage with half the recharge time. Meanwhile, AoEs are up every 10 seconds or better, and probably do in the neighborhood of 150 damage. Given this return, it's not really worth trying to slot it up as a damage/mez nuke.

 

Heart of Darkness works much better even though Shadowfield can also take a lot of procs, because HoD does the same damage per proc IO... but starts off with a Recharge of 90 seconds rather than 240. Shadow Field is a lot worse than HoD, so the only reason to use it is if you have a build that really just has free slots that you're not sure where to put. If that's the case, adding another mini-nuke to the build wouldn't hurt... but that's rarely the case.

[amendara]

Thanks, that is what I expected.  I was just wondering since the pulsing AOE holds are a bit better than the normal ones, but the recharge makes all the aoe holds a turn off.

 

Kudos for a great idea Coyote!  Thematically I like both of these sets but I could never think of a combo I wanted.  Think I'll give it a try.  Maybe not the most powerful, but looks fun.

[amendara]

6 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Haha yep. I have a pbaoe nuke-troller in the works. Dark/poison is as you describe. I dont like spring leap personally. I tried it with 4 dam procs but for whatever reason it didnt click for me. I might revisit it with a target location bind. . Fissure fits in like a dream.

 

Single target is more impressive than you might think as haunts are decent damage with two procs added. The dog despite high damage is skippable imo. 

Do you mind sharing your build Frosticus?  I'm finding all the proc stuff too daunting to know how to slot.

 

It looks like you are going Dark/Poison/Earth which is what I was thinking.  And I want to skip spring attack too since my main is a shield stalker and worn out on that power.  And fissure+FF proc is too good to pass up in a build otherwise having no knockback.

 

The other possiblity which looked intruiging is Fire for a fireball, consume +low defense Rise of the phoenix build.  Too many invulnerable characters running around and phoenix can make dying fun.

 

Since dog adds good ST damage and a bit of distraction, what power are you skipping it for?

 

Thanks

[Frosticus]

46 minutes ago, amendara said:

How is shadowfield in this build? Does it proc well or skippable?

It doesn't proc particularly well. 10 sec interval, ~15% chance per standard proc. 

 

It does stack with the aoe hold of poison trap quite well though. Such long recharge that I tend to steer clear of aoe holds, even if the pulsing ones are better than one shot ones for control.

[Frosticus]

35 minutes ago, amendara said:

Do you mind sharing your build Frosticus?  I'm finding all the proc stuff too daunting to know how to slot.

 

It looks like you are going Dark/Poison/Earth which is what I was thinking.  And I want to skip spring attack too since my main is a shield stalker and worn out on that power.  And fissure+FF proc is too good to pass up in a build otherwise having no knockback.

 

The other possiblity which looked intruiging is Fire for a fireball, consume +low defense Rise of the phoenix build.  Too many invulnerable characters running around and phoenix can make dying fun.

 

Since dog adds good ST damage and a bit of distraction, what power are you skipping it for?

 

Thanks

I'm not opposed to sharing a build. I don't really have one for my dark/poison as I'm still levelling it. I'll post what I'm striving for though. It is subject to change if it starts working out differently than I'm expecting in the end game, but so far it plays similar to my plant/poison.

I take the dog while levelling. I just mean on a 50+ build the pet doesn't really fit my playstyle anymore.

[amendara]

6 hours ago, Frosticus said:

I'm not opposed to sharing a build. I don't really have one for my dark/poison as I'm still levelling it. I'll post what I'm striving for though. It is subject to change if it starts working out differently than I'm expecting in the end game, but so far it plays similar to my plant/poison.

I take the dog while levelling. I just mean on a 50+ build the pet doesn't really fit my playstyle anymore.

Awesome thanks.  Really appreciate all this work you are doing testing out proc performance.  Lets some underperformers like Poison get more play time up with the strong sets.

[Tacheyon]

I am trying to do a Fire/Poison controller.  Just life and my Alt-ites is getting in the way.  It is a PBAOE nuking build.  I am also taking Poison Trap and will be loading it up with damage procs for just to really make things interesting.

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.1
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Wowie: Level 49 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Fire Control
Secondary Power Set: Poison
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Fire Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Char -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Alkaloid -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Fire Cages -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Envenom -- Empty(A)
Level 6: Weaken -- Empty(A)
Level 8: Hot Feet -- Empty(A)
Level 10: Neurotoxic Breath -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Flashfire -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Hasten -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Smoke -- Empty(A)
Level 18: Cinders -- Empty(A)
Level 20: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Tough -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Assault -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Bonfire -- Empty(A)
Level 28: Paralytic Poison -- Empty(A)
Level 30: Tactics -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Fire Imps -- Empty(A)
Level 35: Poison Trap -- Empty(A)
Level 38: Venomous Gas -- Empty(A)
Level 41: Fire Ball -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Fire Shield -- Empty(A)
Level 47: Consume -- Empty(A)
Level 49: Rise of the Phoenix -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- Empty(A)
------------

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;854;377;754;HEX;|
|78DA65D25D4BC2501807F00D155113353513134110246118751F64198482D445973|
|174EA81E16433AACB2E7AEFBEA0BAAB6E82BE592FDF60FD7DF698E2396C70CEEFFF|
|3CE3EC6CCDD3ED85CFDDF34D458DD74CDD718E6AD660645BA669D881A6DE136D052|
|370689D08238859611A4F2AB5BAB08DC9626926DF3AEE76B596251C6BA0845B162A|
|0F8686D189D2B42E7AFD9118F462B46A187AC7B09DBE1846BCD41CC7899DA1687B8|
|F6FEACEC8B0CF96B18512EE0B55E1E1E2C250F632F372891A954525D9478D8FC547|
|F290C2CBB10448AED1126409923CA226C41222B9414D84254252444B94254A72859|
|A184B8CE41692604990A8E84AB224497C90B4EA499A641192E19A0CC91DF22C4B96|
|E4093BCCB1E44892E8CAB3E449EED1556029903CA3ABC85224794979A73B9612C92|
|B8EABCC52267983547887159277884627ED2A1AC9078EA2CA5D559215FFFCD7C94F|
|C55D95D2AA246B92AC4BB221494392967FFEAF08C5FFFF0AF72B8C549D4D7F24F99|
|6E457923FEABE08FF|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

[Frosticus]

3 hours ago, amendara said:

Awesome thanks.  Really appreciate all this work you are doing testing out proc performance.  Lets some underperformers like Poison get more play time up with the strong sets.

Couple notes:

- extra slots in health, use them as you see fit

- some people like to use their st hold as a hold, others as an attack. Up to you really. Between grasp, paralytic, poison trap, and seismic you can stack a lot of hold.

- The aoe immob is of questionable value to a pbaoe centric build.

- I don't love energy font, but the stun will stack with heart of darkness.

- should be perma hasten/haunt once the 20% global rech of ageless and the force feedback procs kick in.

- cycle melee alpha and rune of protection for high uptime mez protection + big survivability boost

- doesn't exemp below lvl 45 well at all haha. 

- poison trap and fissure are the main two powers so that's why nerve over intuition. If you are willing to take a small hit to them, then intuition is a strong option, but you'll need to rework s/l def.

- I can't be bothered trying to keep the dog alive and it usually doesn't keep up with me/team when it gets rolling. 

 

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1474&c=695&a=1390&f=HEX&dc=78DA65544B4F1351143ED399022D2D2D94D2F228F401943E282DBA351869C1074D1AD9AAB581011AB1D3B43591B872E11FD04416C82F30716DDCF903FC072EDC690C14B7BAA9A7F31D19E2DC74FAF57EE771BF73CE9D969F173D1F365FAE91E25F3FACB5DBD575A3D1691987877ACB59AEEDD777A8BF06F94958967F4EB962ADF5A4A15B5113577C6E3DDBDBCB558C7ADB6890A762B0F7B6D1DAD15B476E6C9ABABEEB337F6EE9B55DBDD53EA837BDE67EA3BE7FD0A937F6C74ACDFA4E6EBB6334F46AB9D6EE706C9885A4F8F91922593D8D8A0EA282465A49700338B029781B78D78AE10F2FBACF8C02C6A17C66AF8046B12FF08E0DA844118D5E2F10A9F071AAD9BECD4543AFE03354C0DE9D551173841C853CF833CEEF1495CE0788997F084C3E02A6ABC0E5C7C0F310DADDD734F84D31B9951F0E53CB0A3FFD7D9C1D5CA6F09EE2CA10340876397E58F40E137479BA88F7BC20733F21F926EE4167B40C1CE5BC5EE4757A83387BC42D3802F4FB043DC0712F30C0B13ED1E43B953E9C002F58D32834A9A352D39868185BC3D9E33705394F40A614100D0A7341E182E6E454664238CD115A4595E13EC119C361A0C63E9352CDA4649A926AA6A49A59A96656AA894A3527E344D3A278FA0F2633F314B6991AF2CF9670EE1BBE21115117F90ADFB7CCCD8153E6643251C1779C3B2E138ADF807FE28EE07BE44CAC01E76572F332C9338605895D905BB828B76EF123A6BB18876FF2BBE02A3A7BCEDB25E9C792F42325FD4849FD29B32F2E4A4B5FD2D28FDF1EA28C9C9BC9E0DC6C1279B34B82D29765E9D37295DD931A9D72BD399C4B3979CBBAAC252F3DCB67A07B46FBFFFD8C584C2F6DB3E66D4CC1C65CB331D76DCC968DA96897FF0BA4988CCB7FF92FD03B77B355B96ABDB0185589A1EB0ED3B2025DE677D716F7CB6214E5185D7544714B4AFC121460EB7DE2EB5290D3CD751CB088BF3D81FC54

[amendara]

Thanks for taking the time Frosticus.  Such an interesting build and its interesting to see how Nerve Alpha can be used. 

 

One question, wouldn't it be quite important to add Soulbound chance for build up in haunts?  Usually it adds quite a bit of damage to multiple pets.  Also, wouldnt contagious confusion be good in possess or is it not really helpful single target?

 

I might mix a few things up otherwise and may fiddle trying intuition or even spiritual alphas.  Like you say, its not very good at exemplaring!  Depends on incarnates and very important things come late.

 

But a great and creative build over all.  Amazing all the interesting things that can be done in this game.  Cheers!

[Frosticus]

Soulbound proc? yes absolutely great choice.

 

I don't really use the st confuse late game. Great power while leveling though. Fearsome stare is usually enough to get into the mix. I might be mistaken, but I think the contagious proc alerts enemies, so up to you if the aoe factor would be worthwhile vs sneaky single confusing.

 

ya I use a second build slot for examplaring on my main toons. Other than the inconvenience of initially slotting the second build it allows the best of both worlds with minimal compromise in build power. 

 

be careful with spiritual, it can mess with your proc rates. Sometimes worth it, sometimes not.