Proposed Improvements to Super Reflexes

Super Reflexes on Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers has a sweet spot that is growing increasingly more narrow.  It works very well for a low- to moderate- cost build against moderate difficulty content in the late-game.  At high levels of build investment, many other sets can achieve better overall mitigation and quality-of-life.  Very difficult enemies undercut its primary defensive layer with accuracy buffs that often allow them to eat away its mitigation.  And early in the leveling process, its total lack of AoE defense makes it feel far more fragile than it ought to.  Although having weaknesses or even outright holes in basic mitigation is common for defense sets, SR doesn't have any kind of toolkit to respond.

So there are the changes I'd propose to SR to help keep it competitive, ranging from least-impactful to most-impactful.  Any numbers here anticipate Scrappers and Brutes.

[*]Re-order Agile (level 4), Dodge (level 16), and Lucky (level 28) to Lucky at 4, Agile at 16, and Dodge at 28.  The delay in melee defense 'completion' is actually a minor positive, since it reinforces set synergy with Parry-type powers.

[*]Add sustain and additional Defense Debuff Resistance to Practiced Brawler.  I'd propose having an enhanceable 10% heal/40% regen buff, an unenhanceable 10% global endurance discount, and an additional 10% Defense Resist.  The intended behavior is for SR players to be able to stack these buffs with high recharge, synergizing with the Speedster theme of the set and creating a higher-level build reward.

[*]Add to and improve the status resistances on Quickness (but not the global recharge buff); 200% sleep, 100% hold/stunned, and 20% to endurance, recovery, and recharge resistance (additional to the existing 40% recharge resistance).  Most of these are thematic, reflecting the ability of speedsters, martial artists, and the like to escape traps; mechanically, the only particularly relevant one is the improved recharge resistance buff, to avoid Practiced Brawler failure.  (The other buffs do have a low-level impact in mitigating or avoiding PB failure as well.)

[*]Add PvE elusivity (anti-accuracy) to Focused Fighting and Evasion.  SR is hurt more than any other set by +3/AV accuracy multipliers.  A -10% anti-accuracy (x/1.10 effective acc) on Focused Fighting further helps the SR character through low- and medium- levels by reducing the defense softcap vs same-level minions to ~41%.  An additional -20% (x/1.30, total, effective acc) on Evasion fully negates AV accuracy bonuses, leaving only the level differential bonus.

[*]Rework Elude entirely.  None of the other melee T9s are as non-interactive as Elude; in function it merely reprises the set as it is.  This is of course an echo of an earlier SR implementation, but its legacy era has passed.  The replacement for Elude should do the following:

• Interact multiplicatively with the rest of the set.  One With The Shield is a good example; as a +resist power on a mostly +defense set, it multiplies the user's survivability.
  
• Be better to use than to avoid using, and better to take than avoid taking.  It doesn't have to be a "mandatory" power pick, but an example of this type of power is a self-rez; even with no enhancement slotting whatsoever, a self-rez has a clear use that justifies taking it as an optional power.  When it's available (when defeated), a self-rez is typically better than either a wakie inspiration or a hospital trip because it keeps the character in the action and usually helps keep them from immediately going down again; the player doesn't have to hesitate over whether or not the power is going to just hurt them more in a couple minutes.
  
• Remain a long-cooldown clickie.  Too many clickies hurt a character by interfering with attack chains, but staying as a slower clickie synergizes for the same reasons as Practiced Brawler.
  
• Remain thematically appropriate.  Rise of the Phoenix is a great power, but cloning it here would be out of place.

So my proposal is:

• After-Image.  Whether by ninja magic, extreme speed, or just a clever trick, you seem to be in multiple places at once.  Your duplicate taunts your enemies, drawing their attention, and uses weaker versions of your attacks.  After-image costs a large amount of endurance and a little health to activate, but as long as the after-image is alive you regenerate health and recover endurance faster.  When the afterimage is defeated or expires, the collapsing paradox releases a wave of energy that knocks down enemies and can leave weaker foes disoriented for some time.
  

Well, there's two other SR proposals at the top of S&F right now, so maybe it's the time.

Just as a disclaimer here, I have a level 50 T3 slotted, Io slotted (but not boosted) Kat/SR scrapper and encounter no issues soloing at +4 *8

Re-order Agile (level 4), Dodge (level 16), and Lucky (level 28) to Lucky at 4, Agile at 16, and Dodge at 28.  The delay in melee defense 'completion' is actually a minor positive, since it reinforces set synergy with Parry-type powers.

I like this idea, the lack of AoE Def till comparitivly late on can be a real pain.

Add sustain and additional Defense Debuff Resistance to Practiced Brawler.  I'd propose having an enhanceable 10% heal/40% regen buff, an unenhanceable 10% global endurance discount, and an additional 10% Defense Resist.  The intended behavior is for SR players to be able to stack these buffs with high recharge, synergizing with the Speedster theme of the set and creating a higher-level build reward.

SR already hits the 95% DDR cap, adding more would make no difference. I'd be for the regen but i'm not sure it wouldn't be unbalanced.

Do you mean Practiced Brawler here btw or Quickness? - no other mes protection has a heal/regen component

Add to and improve the status resistances on Quickness (but not the global recharge buff); 200% sleep, 100% hold/stunned, and 20% to endurance, recovery, and recharge resistance (additional to the existing 40% recharge resistance).  Most of these are thematic, reflecting the ability of speedsters, martial artists, and the like to escape traps; mechanically, the only particularly relevant one is the improved recharge resistance buff, to avoid Practiced Brawler failure.  (The other buffs do have a low-level impact in mitigating or avoiding PB failure as well.)

Do you mean Practiced Brawler here? Quickness is just a recharge/speed increase and a slow res.

What's holding/mezzing you so much. I can't remember the last time i was held.

A +5 IO has a recharge time of 109.6S vs a duration of 120s (according to mids)

Add sustain and additional Defense Debuff Resistance to Practiced Brawler.  I'd propose having an enhanceable 10% heal/40% regen buff, an unenhanceable 10% global endurance discount, and an additional 10% Defense Resist.  The intended behavior is for SR players to be able to stack these buffs with high recharge, synergizing with the Speedster theme of the set and creating a higher-level build reward.

 

SR already hits the 95% DDR cap, adding more would make no difference. I'd be for the regen but i'm not sure it wouldn't be unbalanced.

 

Do you mean Practiced Brawler here btw or Quickness? - no other mes protection has a heal/regen component

I mean Practiced Brawler, specifically to promote stacking it.  You're probably right about not having a need for DDR.  I was looking at the set w/o Evasion or Lucky and over-estimated the early-game benefit.

Add to and improve the status resistances on Quickness (but not the global recharge buff); 200% sleep, 100% hold/stunned, and 20% to endurance, recovery, and recharge resistance (additional to the existing 40% recharge resistance).  Most of these are thematic, reflecting the ability of speedsters, martial artists, and the like to escape traps; mechanically, the only particularly relevant one is the improved recharge resistance buff, to avoid Practiced Brawler failure.  (The other buffs do have a low-level impact in mitigating or avoiding PB failure as well.)

Do you mean Practiced Brawler here? Quickness is just a recharge/speed increase and a slow res.

What's holding/mezzing you so much. I can't remember the last time i was held.

No, I mean Quickness, the passive power.  The passive mez resistance (as opposed to protection, in PB) has a benefit in PvP and, rarely, when detoggled in PvE (from endurance drain or in-combat rez).  The end/rec/rech resistance is almost always relevant. 

A +5 IO has a recharge time of 109.6S vs a duration of 120s (according to mids)

I don't know specifically what this is in response to, but the idea is to build PB to stack 2 or 3 times with a sustain benefit accumulating each time (so for example, if it has a 100% regen buff, stacking it up to 3 would end up with a 300% buff).  Recharge resistance is important to keep that available, and has an offensive benefit (avoiding attack chain disruption) that helps distinguish SR from sets with similar "quickness" powers and other misc. benefits.

As someone who mained a kat/SR scrapper for the entirety of the original games life. Who adapted and thrived during the nerfing that took my perma elude, ED that made me depend abit too much on parry, to IO sets that slowly began to give me things like modest bits of resistance, more end recovery and eventually enough recharge that while It wsnt perma elude was enough that phase shift ws enough to cover eludes entire down time, to incarnate powers giving me enough to finally regain perma elude.

That it simple is not needed. SR isnt a speedster defense for a concept like flash its a spider man time super agility set. Your idea for an after image power would make more sense added to the Super Speed pool.

SR is a high skill set. Players like myself prefer there being a mix of easy entry level sets that new and casual players can use with little trouble, and high skill sets that take extensive game experience to make great. If every set was EASY to make work the game would be terribly dull to folks like me.

I suspect you have not actually played the set, to 50 and beyond.

It is a highly advanced set. Most of the changing you are proposing is unnecessary, as SR becomes extremely powerful. I have no issues face tanking +4 content that makes other AT's hesitate. Usually, I am the one who plows in headlong, and out the other side with Katana swinging.

SR had one main issue some time ago, in that defense is all or nothing, and heavy alpha strike had the everpresent possibility of near to one shotting an SR. They added scaling damage resistance as health lowers in several powers.

He only real thing SR probably needs, is a different logic in the one shot rule. For example, the game has code that prevents being one shot killed, instead it leaving you at 1hp.

Perhaps SR could have some code that thematically has a 3 second window where a one shot that puts the SR at 1hp causes an "SR" style super awareness and prevents the next 1-2 incoming attacks from killing the SR, like an adrenaline hit. The reason is, SR can suffer from back to back "natural 20" hit-checks that get through in an alpha strike, and the scaling damage resist hasn't kicked in yet.

But then again, that's why SR is so fun, and always keeps you on your toes.

• Add sustain and additional Defense Debuff Resistance to Practiced Brawler.  I'd propose having an enhanceable 10% heal/40% regen buff, an unenhanceable 10% global endurance discount, and an additional 10% Defense Resist.  The intended behavior is for SR players to be able to stack these buffs with high recharge, synergizing with the Speedster theme of the set and creating a higher-level build reward.

Full disclosure: Never played SR, but I'm currently considering making a SR/ Tanker. Having increased regen abilities would certainly make the set more appealing, but I could see stacking it on a Tanker being WAY too good. Either lower the number or leave that part unstackable.

Some interesting ideas though. I like them, but some of the counter arguments might have a good point.

I suspect you have not actually played the set, to 50 and beyond.

Incarnate BS/SR scrapper back on live.

It is a highly advanced set.

It's one of the simplest sets in the game to play or to build.  It has one build goal: hit softcap.  This doesn't take much work.  Stacking resistance or regen does very little for it because it has very little to start with.

Unlike e.g. Regen, a set with a very high skill curve, SR runs on autopilot.  The set requires no action (assuming PB is on auto) in combat and offers only one active tool -- Elude, which merely recapitulates the existing passive defenses of the set.

These are generally strengths of the set, but your statement is in error.

SR can suffer from back to back "natural 20" hit-checks that get through in an alpha strike, and the scaling damage resist hasn't kicked in yet.

It doesn't take a "natural 20" to hit SR, since in PvE, SR has no tools to mitigate accuracy -- only tohit.  Enemies with accuracy bonuses can easily halve SR's mitigation (that is, hit on a 91-100 rather than only 96-100).

SR isnt a speedster defense for a concept like flash its a spider man time super agility set. Your idea for an after image power would make more sense added to the Super Speed pool.

We could perhaps agree to disagree on theme, but not on Spider-Man.  He's absolutely part of the inspiration for that idea and has canonically used this type of effect.

SR is a high skill set.

How often do you use Elude in combat?

Having increased regen abilities would certainly make the set more appealing, but I could see stacking it on a Tanker being WAY too good.

It's trivial to softcap a Willpower, Invuln (to all but psi), Stone (w/o Granite), Bio Armor, or Ice Armor Tanker.  All of those sets have either click heals, regen boosts, or both; all of those sets also have defense debuff resistance.  If "regen plus softcap" is overpowered, it's been overpowered for a long time.

It's trivial to softcap a Willpower, Invuln (to all but psi), Stone (w/o Granite), Bio Armor, or Ice Armor Tanker.  All of those sets have either click heals, regen boosts, or both; all of those sets also have defense debuff resistance.  If "regen plus softcap" is overpowered, it's been overpowered for a long time.

I hear where you're going. I guess I'm curious to what SO-only numbers would look like between sets on: Defence, -Def Res, and HP/S at their highest regen. This would help show what a "balanced" regen amount should be. I use quotations because that's a pretty subjective term.

The one advantage I can see on the SR, due to its ability to comfortably overcap even the incarnate softcap, as well as carrying more DEF Debuff resistance than any other Powerset (to the best of my knowledge), means that in Incarnate content, the SR may delay or avoid the debuff cascade collapse that would otherwise claim it.  This value may be questionable outside a solo context - in a team situation, your teammates may well be providing enough DEF Buff that the baddies cant start the cascade.

That said, when I die on my Bio Brute in Incarnate Content, its very nearly always a debuff cascade collapse.

I suspect you have not actually played the set, to 50 and beyond.

 

Incarnate BS/SR scrapper back on live.

 

It is a highly advanced set.

 

It's one of the simplest sets in the game to play or to build.  It has one build goal: hit softcap.  This doesn't take much work.  Stacking resistance or regen does very little for it because it has very little to start with.

 

Unlike e.g. Regen, a set with a very high skill curve, SR runs on autopilot.  The set requires no action (assuming PB is on auto) in combat and offers only one active tool -- Elude, which merely recapitulates the existing passive defenses of the set.

 

These are generally strengths of the set, but your statement is in error.

 

SR can suffer from back to back "natural 20" hit-checks that get through in an alpha strike, and the scaling damage resist hasn't kicked in yet.

 

It doesn't take a "natural 20" to hit SR, since in PvE, SR has no tools to mitigate accuracy -- only tohit.  Enemies with accuracy bonuses can easily halve SR's mitigation (that is, hit on a 91-100 rather than only 96-100).

 

SR isnt a speedster defense for a concept like flash its a spider man time super agility set. Your idea for an after image power would make more sense added to the Super Speed pool.

 

We could perhaps agree to disagree on theme, but not on Spider-Man.  He's absolutely part of the inspiration for that idea and has canonically used this type of effect.

 

SR is a high skill set.

 

How often do you use Elude in combat?

 

Having increased regen abilities would certainly make the set more appealing, but I could see stacking it on a Tanker being WAY too good.

 

It's trivial to softcap a Willpower, Invuln (to all but psi), Stone (w/o Granite), Bio Armor, or Ice Armor Tanker.  All of those sets have either click heals, regen boosts, or both; all of those sets also have defense debuff resistance.  If "regen plus softcap" is overpowered, it's been overpowered for a long time.

Erm. The set is not auto pilot. If it were, then so is invuln, wp, fire, ice, stone.... All of CoH.

Toggles do not equal easy mode. It's advanced because it's defense, where as resist is a given. Having to always be tactically aware due to this is advanced, versus afk-tanking anything, because "invuln" or "stone"

So your statement about my statement and something something error...

Is in error.

Also, I vote no change because SR is the bomb-diggity as is. Nochangethankyou.

SR was the only set that allowed me to take out Ghost Widow solo, which very well may just be due to pure luck since I only did it once. And it was certainly the best set I used against Silver Mantis. I realize my examples aren't the norm.

Toggles do not equal easy mode. It's advanced because it's defense, where as resist is a given. Having to always be tactically aware due to this is advanced, versus afk-tanking anything, because "invuln" or "stone."

I'm not going to change your mind, but I will correct some mis-statements.  I hope you'll forgive not quoting your entire post to do so.

First -- and most basically -- invuln and stone (discounting Granite) are both primarily defense sets.  Stone actually has higher DDR than Ice, and a very similar profile (slightly lower s/l/e/n Defense but no psi hole).  Invuln, while less obviously similar in profile, functions a great deal like Shield -- strong Defense, great S/L resists, "meh" other resists, and +maxhp.  Like SR and Shield, both Invuln and Stone typically run exactly one click power that they typically build to "perma."  They are exactly as "afk-tankable" as SR.  Unlike SR, though, their click power has a heal component and boosts regen rate.

My SR didn't have to be tactically aware of anything in particular.  As y'all have mentioned, SR can be reasonably stable at +4/x8.  The great strength of Defense (in comparison to pure Resistance) is that Defense will typically avoid debuffs, while a Defense-less player has to face-tank them.  I imagine this is why Defense-based sets are more predominant than Resist-based sets for Tanker primaries (out of twelve sets, four are Resist-based, six are Defense-based, and two are regeneration-based).  SR softcaps more easily and usually earlier than any other set, and that's great.  I'm right with you on not wanting to change it.

The thing is, all those other sets (er, nine of them, anyway; Regen and FA excepted) can also be quite stable on any melee at +4/x8 by stacking defense... and when they get there, they bring other mitigation layers to the table.  I'm a big proponent of SR's scaling resists but it simply hits its ceiling very, very early.  My goal is much less to just "buff SR" and much more to give it more of a ceiling to grow with comparable to all the sets since SD.

I hear where you're going. I guess I'm curious to what SO-only numbers would look like between sets on: Defence, -Def Res, and HP/S at their highest regen. This would help show what a "balanced" regen amount should be. I use quotations because that's a pretty subjective term.

Tanker #s, in address to your earlier concern.  To standardize, all sets assume Fighting pool, Combat Jumping, and Maneuvers.  All powers have three of each type of relevant enhancement (e.g., dull pain has three Health SOs and three Recharge SOs.  Hoarfrost as noted is the only exception).  Regen is given in % equivalent to a base Tanker (so maxhp % is multiplied by regen %), with Health three-slotted.  Click heals were normalized into hp/s.

I'm also noting how many set powers are needed to hit the numbers given.

• Super Reflexes notes: 7/9 powers, no quickness or elude
  • Defense : 15.2 all types; 55.8 mel/ran/aoe
    
  • DDR : 121.4
    
  • Res: Someone smarter than I could probably normalize this.
    
  • Regen: 178%

  [*]Invulnerability notes: 8/9 powers, no unstoppable

  • Defense : 32.4 s/l/f/c/e/n ; 15.2 p ; 15.2 mel/ran/aoe
    
  • DDR : 50
    
  • Res : >90 s/l ; 31.2 f/c/e/n/t
    
  • Regen: 410%

  [*]Ice Armor notes: 5/9 powers, no chilling embrace, icicles, energy absorption, or hibernate

  • Defense : 44.9 s/l/e/n ; 18.4 f/c ; 15.2 p/mel/ran/aoe
    
  • DDR : 51.9
    
  • Res: (no res slotting in Hoarfrost) 23.4 s/l; 32 f; 20 t
    
  • Regen: ~370%

  [*]Shield Defense notes: 6.5/9 powers, no shield charge or owts, grant cover provides ddr but can be dropped at no loss with more recharge on active defense

  • Defense : 15.2 all types; 43.6 mel/ran/aoe
    
  • DDR : 65.9
    
  • Res: 46.8 s/l ; 23.4 f/c/e/b/t
    
  • Regen: 214%

The numbers on Stone, WP, and Bio aren't terribly interesting at the SO-only level; they showcase the effects of a high build ceiling in the IO environment.  Based on these, I'd say ~100% (enhanced) regen or equivalent is on the money for tankers, and should be normalized from there (which means slightly higher % for scrappers and stalkers, and lower for brutes). 

Toggles do not equal easy mode. It's advanced because it's defense, where as resist is a given. Having to always be tactically aware due to this is advanced, versus afk-tanking anything, because "invuln" or "stone."

 

I'm not going to change your mind, but I will correct some mis-statements.  I hope you'll forgive not quoting your entire post to do so.

 

First -- and most basically -- invuln and stone (discounting Granite) are both primarily defense sets.  Stone actually has higher DDR than Ice, and a very similar profile (slightly lower s/l/e/n Defense but no psi hole).  Invuln, while less obviously similar in profile, functions a great deal like Shield -- strong Defense, great S/L resists, "meh" other resists, and +maxhp.  Like SR and Shield, both Invuln and Stone typically run exactly one click power that they typically build to "perma."  They are exactly as "afk-tankable" as SR.  Unlike SR, though, their click power has a heal component and boosts regen rate.

 

My SR didn't have to be tactically aware of anything in particular.  As y'all have mentioned, SR can be reasonably stable at +4/x8.  The great strength of Defense (in comparison to pure Resistance) is that Defense will typically avoid debuffs, while a Defense-less player has to face-tank them.  I imagine this is why Defense-based sets are more predominant than Resist-based sets for Tanker primaries (out of twelve sets, four are Resist-based, six are Defense-based, and two are regeneration-based).  SR softcaps more easily and usually earlier than any other set, and that's great.  I'm right with you on not wanting to change it.

 

The thing is, all those other sets (er, nine of them, anyway; Regen and FA excepted) can also be quite stable on any melee at +4/x8 by stacking defense... and when they get there, they bring other mitigation layers to the table.  I'm a big proponent of SR's scaling resists but it simply hits its ceiling very, very early.  My goal is much less to just "buff SR" and much more to give it more of a ceiling to grow with comparable to all the sets since SD.

Great post. I will correct your mistatement: you mistated that I misstated, which I did not.

In essence, my post is accurate.

Pretty sure the correct response is, "Nuh-uh."

Pretty sure the correct response is, "Nuh-uh."

NO WAY JOSE!

Honestly, I'd like Tank/Brute/Scrapper SR to get the choice between Practiced Brawler or Master Brawler, like Sentinels have. Master Brawler, combined with Defensive Opportunity and Rebirth, has made my fire/SR Sentinel ridiculously survivable.

Honestly, I'd like Tank/Brute/Scrapper SR to get the choice between Practiced Brawler or Master Brawler, like Sentinels have. Master Brawler, combined with Defensive Opportunity and Rebirth, has made my fire/SR Sentinel ridiculously survivable.

The Sentinel secondaries are probably mostly overtuned for similar reasons as Bio Armor or WP are on melee, to a higher degree.  I'm not calling for a nerf or anything, because by no means are Sentinels breaking the game as an AT, but I'd be very leery about porting anything over from them.  (As much as I like Sentinel /Regen.)

For MB in particular I feel like it takes an already very easy-to-build kit and takes away the one interesting wrinkle it had.  I'm happy that it gives SR a responsive combat tool, which makes it a bit more interesting to actually play, but it actually IMO worsens the "low build ceiling" issue I'm on about here.