Archetype Concept: The Warlord

The Warlord

Warlords live to lead the charge. Like Masterminds, they are accompanied by a cadre of loyal minions, but unlike them, their minions do not fight alone. Instead of hanging back and keeping their minions alive with supporting abilities, the Warlord fights alongside them in a symbiotic fashion. The Warlord isn’t as durable as a brute, or as damaging as a scrapper, but by fighting, they can provide boosts of morale to their minions. In turn, the minions work to take heat away from their master, and match them in damage output.

Inherent Power: Elite Guard

All Warlord pets have a weak taunt effect on their attacks. Furthermore, each pet provides a small defense and resist buff to the Warlord. Both of these effects start off strong at low levels, and decrease as the Warlord levels up, to account for their increasing minion count.

A Warlord’s pets are motivated by their master’s actions. As a Warlord attacks, a portion of all damage they deal is converted into healing for each minion. The amount each pet is healed by is decreased by a small amount per active pet. AoE attacks also provide slightly less healing per enemy hit.

These bonus do not apply with “disloyal” pets, such as Gang War gangsters or Souls Extraction ghosts.

Primary Powerset: Minions

A Warlord’s primary power sets are designed for summoning. Compared to a Mastermind’s pets, the Warlord’s pets deal less damage, but have more health. They also have a much tighter leash.

While the Mastermind’s minion power sets have ranged attack powers mixed in, the Warlord has defensive powers instead. As an example, the Warlord’s Necromancy power set has powers from the Dark Armor powerset.

T1: Dark Embrace

T2: Zombie Horde

T3: Murky Cloud

T4: Enchant Undead

T5: Dark Regeneration

T6: Grave Knight

T7: Soul Extraction

T8: Summon Lich

T9: Dark Empowerment.

Beast Mastery -> Regeneration

Demon Summoning -> Fiery Aura

Mercenaries -> Willpower

Ninjas -> Ninja Training

Robotics -> Invulnerability

Thugs -> Super Reflexes

Secondary Powerset: Melee Damage

A Warlord’s secondary power set is for dealing melee damage. A Warlord has more attack power than a Tanker, but less than a Brute. Their secondary power set is almost identical to a Tanker’s, however, instead of Taunt they have Hold the Line

Hold the Line is an ability that commands all pets to unleash a short ranged PBAoE Taunt. It has a longer cooldown than a tanker’s Taunt.

Other Suggestions:

Tendril Melee

Goliath Defense

It's an interesting idea.

One thing I'd be worried about is it completely invalidating Mastermind.  The inherent seems to grant too much stacking advantage and you minion healing which kind of takes away from the skillset of MM as a buff/debuff and healing secondary.  Lastly you mentioned damage and sustain potential.  You mentioned not being as durable as a Brute, is that with or without the pets?  You also mentioned not as damaging as a Scrapper?  I'd say "duh" to that, as Scrapper is meant to be the highest melee DPS so that's a given...but then you mentioned being between a Tanker and a Brute.  Is that taking Brute Fury into account?  Because technically, Brutes have the lowest melee damage mod but make up for it with their extremely high damage buff cap + fury pushing their damage up.  If you are talking about lower than Brute with fury but higher than Tanker, that's kind of the ballpark of Stalker except Stalkers get burst.  Also, are we talking about the Warlord's damage with or without pets?

Some suggestions I'd make for this would be:

-Warlord trades its potency for some of its pets.  It summons fewer pets than Mastermind (2 tier 1s, 1 tier 2 and tier 3 instead of the MM's 3, 2, 1 set-up).  This is partially to facilitate clutter.  As much as I enjoy having a MM or 2 on my team, it's annoying to fight next to them when you're melee...if you, the MM, are also melee, i'd imagine they'd even start getting in your way.

-Instead of a +def/res buff from pets, let it be a simple +MaxHP buff and have the AT start with low (MM level) HP but have a Brute or Higher Max HP cap.  Also, if the above is done, greatly boost your pets' HP to make up for fewer pets.

-I'd think about changing some of the moves of the pets to push them toward more ranged attacks.  They can have melee but when in close, they should be focusing on taunting.

-With regard to taunting, the attention should end up directed to you.  Maybe not at the instance of their taunt but it should definitely increase your threat levels as the pets draw attention for you.

-Maybe think of some way to work around the weakness of AoE damage?

Primary Powerset: Minions

No, no, better: make the pet sets SECONDARIES ... a mix of defense, and pets.

And, to keep the pets weaker than MMs, they don't get a Tier 3 pet.  At all.  Finally, the pets are more support-oriented - like having your own crew of pseudo-Defenders/Corruptors at your back, that you tank for.

So, working with the theme you chose for an example, consider this ... numbers in parentheses being the level you gain access to them at:

T1 (1): Dark Embrace

>> Toggle; Self Resist Smash, Lethal, Negative, Toxic; Fear

T2 (2): Summon Revenants

>> Like Summon Zombie Horde, but tjhese minions are ranged/support instead of melee - probably via Debuffs.

>> ((Dark Blast, Gloom))

>> Second pet at 10, third at 20.

T3 (4): Obsidian Shield

>> Toggle; Self Resist Psionic, Cold, Fire; Sleep, Hold, Disorient

T4 (10): Enchant Undead

>> Revenants gain: Dark Gift (PBAoE, Minor Ally Heal)

>> Dark Champions gain: Tenebrous Tentacles

T5 (16): Dark Champion

>> Like Grave Knights, but again, Ranged/Support instead of Melee

>> ((Dark Blast, Abyssal Gaze ))

>> Second pet at 30

T6 (20): Cloak of Darkness

>> Same as the Scrapper/Sentinel power

T7 (28): Shroud of Fear

>> Toggle; PBAoE Fear, minor Negative DoT, -ToHit

T8 (25): Soul Transfer Absorption

>> When you get this power, you get an Autopower that, if you are defeated, applies

>> charges of a buff to you based on the number (and tier) of minions you had active

>> when you were defeated.  Those charges then determine the total effect of the

>> self-Rez of Soul Transfer, rather than number of nearby enemies.  The minions,

>> of course, are all consumed by this.  These buffs last 90 seconds, or until used;

>> this is not a class that will want to self-rez right in melee range of the enemy,

>> thus, the mechanics that allow for a non-infinite delay in activation.

T9 (38): Dark Empowerment

>> Revenants gain: Fearsome Stare

>> Dark Champions gain: Petrifying Gaze

With the slower rate of gaining additional pets, this archetype would not trod too heavily on MM's toes (important to me, as MM is my favorite archetype).

From level 1-9, they will have: Revenant (x1)

From level 10-15, they will have: Revenant (x2)

From level 16-19, they will have: Revenant (x2), Champion (x1)

From level 20-29, they will have: Revenant (x3), Champion (x1)

From level 30-50, they will have: Revenant (x3), Champion (x2)

... the first upgrade is available at level 10 (5 levels later)

... the second upgrade is available at level 38 (6 levels later)

Compare that to a Zombie/ MM:

From level 1-5, they will have: Zombie (x1)

From level 6-11, they will have: Zombie (x2)

From level 12-17, they will have: Zombie (x2), Knight (x1)

From level 18-23, they will have: Zombie (x3), Knight (x1)

From level 24-25, they will have: Zombie (x3), Knight (x2)

From level 26-50, they will have: Zombie (x3), Knight (x2), Lich (x1)

... the first upgrade is available at level 5

... the second upgrade is available at level 32

Secondary Powerset: Melee Damage

Conversely, make the melee damage their primary.  Give them Sentinel-scale damage (so, slightly less than Scrappers or Stalkers): they're not a first-string combatant on their own, that's partly why they bring pets to the table.

 

One thing I'd be worried about is it completely invalidating Mastermind. 

Why is this a concern? No one worried about invalidating tankers when brutes were designed. Why should it matter here?

One thing I'd be worried about is it completely invalidating Mastermind. 

Why is this a concern? No one worried about invalidating tankers when brutes were designed. Why should it matter here?

No-one worried about invalidating Tankers when Brutes were designed, because originally the only place to play Brutes, was where Tankers did not exist.  You couldn't start a Level 1 Brute off as a Hero; if you wanted to play the damage-absorbing brick on Blueside, Brute effectively did not exist as an option.

It was literally impossible for Brutes to invalidate Tankers, because they were never in direct competition.  There weren't even Co-Op zones, SF/TF, Trials, etc when Brute was designed.

...

That does not hold true today.

Right now, because any AT can start on any "side" ... if Brute did not yet exist, I would argue against it, on the grounds of it invalidating both Scrappers and Tanks.

 

No-one worried about invalidating Tankers when Brutes were designed, because originally the only place to play Brutes, was where Tankers did not exist.  You couldn't start a Level 1 Brute off as a Hero; if you wanted to play the damage-absorbing brick on Blueside, Brute effectively did not exist as an option.

 

It was literally impossible for Brutes to invalidate Tankers, because they were never in direct competition.  There weren't even Co-Op zones, SF/TF, Trials, etc when Brute was designed.

 

...

 

That does not hold true today.

 

Right now, because any AT can start on any "side" ... if Brute did not yet exist, I would argue against it, on the grounds of it invalidating both Scrappers and Tanks.

You are absolutely right in the reason why nobody cared. You are also absolutely right in stating that the brute does invalidate both those ATs, I personally believe it invalidates Tanks more than Scrappers. However, any suggestion made to push brutes back redside, or lock the side swapping as it was before so it is a lot less common to see a blue side villain AT, will be met with such resistance. Knowing that, I think it still stands that the community at large honestly doesn't care about invalidating anything.

Primary Powerset: Minions

No, no, better: make the pet sets SECONDARIES ... a mix of defense, and pets.

 

And, to keep the pets weaker than MMs, they don't get a Tier 3 pet.  At all.

I think that might rub some people the wrong way since a lot of the flavor of a pet set comes with the variety of pets and their themes/features. 

I'd suggest, instead, remove the last pet upgrade or change what attacks those pets have for each upgrade.

I think it still stands that the community at large honestly doesn't care about invalidating anything.

I play Masterminds.  So far, I have three of them.  So far.

And I would be absolutely incensed if they were invalidated by another AT that not only did pets as well as MMs did, but also got to wade into combat as well as (or nearly) a Scrapper or Tanker.  Like, if this were a paying MMO, I'd unsubscribe, uninstall, and badmouth it all over social media.  That ticked off.

Which is not to say that a topsy-turvy version of the class couldn't work - see my above counter-proposal.  But the Inherent needs some work, still - I didn't touch it, because I'm not sure I can come up with a good alternative.  But it definitely is (potentially) too strong in your original proposal.

I'd suggest, instead, remove the last pet upgrade or change what attacks those pets have for each upgrade.

I suppose that's a possibility too.

But from my POV as an MM player ... that last upgrade is really somewhat needed, especially when you hit 40+.  Also, I very specifically want other pet classes to have less than MMs do.

So, I'm quite torn on that one.  (Originally, I omitted both, but then rethought things when I recalled how needed the second upgrade is, in that last 10 level stretch.)

Here's a quick comparison of the progression of each, WRT pet summons.  The third tier for WL is a ?, to show "maybe this, or maybe second upgrade":

LV // MM...... // WL......
-- // -------- // --------
01 // A..-..-. // A..-..-.
02 // a..-..-. // a..-..-.
03 // a..-..-. // a..-..-.
04 // a..-..-. // a..-..-.
05 // a..-..-. // a..-..-.
06 // aA.-..-. // a..-..-.
07 // aa.-..-. // a..-..-.
08 // aa.-..-. // a..-..-.
09 // aa.-..-. // a..-..-.
10 // aa.-..-. // aA.-..-.
11 // aa.-..-. // aa.-..-.
12 // aa.-B.-. // aa.-..-.
13 // aa.-b.-. // aa.-..-.
14 // aa.-b.-. // aa.-..-.
15 // aa.-b.-. // aa.-..-.
16 // aa.-b.-. // aa.-B.-.
17 // aa.-b.-. // aa.-b.-.
18 // aaA-b.-. // aa.-b.-.
19 // aaa-b.-. // aa.-b.-.
20 // aaa-b.-. // aaA-b.-.
21 // aaa-b.-. // aaa-b.-.
22 // aaa-b.-. // aaa-b.-.
23 // aaa-b.-. // aaa-b.-.
24 // aaa-bB-. // aaa-b.-.
25 // aaa-bb-. // aaa-b.-.
26 // aaa-bb-C // aaa-b.-.
27 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-b.-.
28 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-b.-.
29 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-b.-.
30 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bB-.
31 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-.
32 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-.
33 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-.
34 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-.
35 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-.
36 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-.
37 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-.
38 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-?
39 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-?
40 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-?
41 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-?
42 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-?
43 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-?
44 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-?
45 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-?
46 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-?
47 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-?
48 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-?
49 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-?
50 // aaa-bb-c // aaa-bb-?

I'd suggest, instead, remove the last pet upgrade or change what attacks those pets have for each upgrade.

I suppose that's a possibility too.

 

But from my POV as an MM player ... that last upgrade is really somewhat needed, especially when you hit 40+.  Also, I very specifically want other pet classes to have less than MMs do.

 

So, I'm quite torn on that one.  (Originally, I omitted both, but then rethought things when I recalled how needed the second upgrade is, in that last 10 level stretch.)

 

Here's a quick comparison of the progression of each, WRT pet summons.  The third tier for WL is a ?, to show "maybe this, or maybe second upgrade":

 

[snip]

I'm not sure what the rest of that means.

I'd also suggest that the purpose of the pets isn't for DPS like it is for MM.  I'm not sure to what extent the OP is suggesting but my thought is the WL would be dealing the majority or at least half the AT's total damage while the pets deal the remainder.  In exchange, I'd assume the pets and the WL would be sturdier (the pets much more so).

Here's a quick comparison of the progression of each, WRT pet summons.  The third tier for WL is a ?, to show "maybe this, or maybe second upgrade":

[snip]

 

I'm not sure what the rest of that means.

Leftmost column: character Level

Middle column: Masterminds

Rightmost column: Warlord

A or a: Tier 1 pet

B or b: Tier 2 pet

C, c, or ?: Tier 3 pet (I used ? for Warlords because, as I said, I'm torn as to whether they should get one at all).

Capital indicates a new pet gained at that level

I'd also suggest that the purpose of the pets isn't for DPS like it is for MM.  I'm not sure to what extent the OP is suggesting but my thought is the WL would be dealing the majority or at least half the AT's total damage while the pets deal the remainder.  In exchange, I'd assume the pets and the WL would be sturdier (the pets much more so).

I figure most Warlord pet attacks would be of the Defender/Corruptor variety, with a Buff or Debuff element.  MAybe Defender scale damage, or perhaps less, and somewhat less Buff or Debuff than any existing AT (since you'll be bringing a bunch of them to the table, eventually).

And yes, I figure the Warlord, with the Sentine's 0.95 damage scale, would definitely be doing most of the actual damage.  It might even need it's personal attacks scaled back even further than that.  (0.85 or 0.80, maybe?)

I'd also suggest that the purpose of the pets isn't for DPS like it is for MM.  I'm not sure to what extent the OP is suggesting but my thought is the WL would be dealing the majority or at least half the AT's total damage while the pets deal the remainder.  In exchange, I'd assume the pets and the WL would be sturdier (the pets much more so).

You'd assume correctly.

Comparing the Mastermind to the Warlord:

Mastermind would have more damage when counting minions, can support allies, and has large coverage due to the long minion leash.

A Warlord has more damage and durability than a Mastermind when not counting minions, and has much sturdier minions that can taunt.

If Warlords would invalidate anything, they'd invalidate the Brute; both would be a reasonable mix of offensive and defensive power (when counting minions), but while the Warlord has more coverage, the Brute has the advantage of straightforwardness, as the Warlord is vulnerable to AoE attacks and getting its "head" cut off.

As an aside, I like PaxArcana's suggestion of making the minions a secondary powerset and dropping the T3 minions, but I wouldn't go so far as to make the pre-existing ones support oriented, because then it isn't a squad of warriors, but a single warrior backed up by a cheerleading squad.

As an aside, I like PaxArcana's suggestion of making the minions a secondary powerset and dropping the T3 minions, but I wouldn't go so far as to make the pre-existing ones support oriented, because then it isn't a squad of warriors, but a single warrior backed up by a cheerleading squad.

Do look at the powers I assigned to the Revenants and Champions, though.  Their default powers are still attacks.  With the first upgrades, your T1s would get a PBAoE heal (a very, very minor one, since they're likely to spam it, and there are THREE of them), while your T2s get an Immobilize.  The second upgrade, I picked Fear/Hold effects for all the minions (the "stand still and cower" sort of fear, is what I had in mind).  :)

Ah, that makes sense. But now it occurred to me that in a way this would make the Warlord more like the Mastermind, because it'd give the AT some off-support capabilities.

MM Pets don't do much support work - a little, but not a lot.  They're mostly there for the DPS.

Hence, figuring on Warlord pets getting buff, debuff, and even a bit of control as their chief raison d'etre.

I meant it'd make it more like the MM because MM is a Support/DPS. They support, their minions DPS. Giving the WL pets support capabilities would just flip that around; the WL would DPS and their pets would support.

The thing is, it's all a zero-sum game.  The AT can't be designed, ground-up, as a "godmode" sort of thing.  It has to fit in with the other ATs - it can't just be "the best of the best" as a design principle.

The more DPS the pets have, the less the WL is allowed to have.  Same for durability.

So if you want the WL to be the one busting heads and taking names, then the pets aren't going to be combat heavies.

Trying to explain the stats of this AT is confusing, because when I'm talking about combat capabilities, it's hard to make it clear whether I'm talking about JUST the Warlord, or the Warlord WITH it's minions.

The Archetype as a whole has comparable defense and offense to a Brute; probably a bit less offense and a bit more defense come to think of it. Both the Brute and the Warlord fit the role of "off-tank," they just do it in different ways.

In terms of DPS, half of the Archetype's damage comes from the Warlord, and half comes from its minions.

In terms of durability, the Warlord itself only has three defense powers; it can take a hit better than a Mastermind, but it's still more fragile than most. The archetype's durability comes primarily from its minions, which not only have higher health than a MM's pets, but they can taunt, and they are healed every time the Warlord deals damage.

Consider it like this: the Warlord is the "keystone." You take that out, the minions fall too. No matter how you build it, the Warlord itself won't be able to take very many hits (moreso than a Blaster or a Mastermind though). The minions taunt enemies, which helps keep the Warlord alive. The Warlord can choose to hang back and play it safe, but the tight minion leash means it will always be close to the action. Furthermore, doing so means you're only doing half of your potential damage output, and the minions will not receive healing from the WL's innate. If the minions die, all you're left with is a weak scrapper. The other option is to play it risky; by fighting alongside its minions, you are doing your full damage potential, and the WL's innate keeps the minions alive, but then the WL will be taking damage from AoEs and non-taunted enemies, and if the WL dies so does its minions. Both are valid strategies, and switching between the two will be necessary.

The reason why you'd play a Mastermind instead of a Warlord is because a Mastermind is easier to build for damage, a bit safer to play (as they stay away from the front lines), and they have team support abilities, and this is true even if you build your Warlord for pure DPS.

I think a tanky mastermind is doable, however I would do Armor primary and MM pet secondary, drop the damage and increase inherent def/res for minions.

That'd be completely different from the Warlord. The primary idea was "Mastermind that fights on the front lines alongside it's minions" and giving armor primary doesn't allow that.

Its not that the Warlord is a tanky Mastermind, it's that the Warlord is a Mastermind that fights in melee while protected by lower damage, tankier minions.

Yeah, I'm seeing it as more of a "Scrapper with Pets" sort of thing.  So I agree, Defense as primary just .... isn't it, to me.

OP, I am a +1 on all new ideas for archetypes that seem at least half baked, and yours is much more so...

Great work!

I understand the concept of the build. I was just saying that Mastermind is already basically hybrid DPS/Support, having a Tank with pets would give greater separation. The other way would be to take the glass-cannon-ish route and have the pets as your primary survivability mechanism by having melee primary and MM pet secondary as is (with modifications to def/res aggro for the pets).

The proposal as it stands seems to be going for a weak scrapper with disposable pets. What I think you would like this to be is going to be much more difficult. Changing the pets as they are to buffbot meatshields with minimal dps. What I meant to say earlier was that the tank with pets route would be more practical and easier to implement.