swordchucks

Hopefully, it'll help with the ones caused by the MSR itself. MSR is still a little long to expect no DCs for other reasons, though, so it'll be a problem, just less of one. I honestly don't know enough about the way trials work to comment further on that. It may be something to experiment with in the future, though.

I confirm the findings 😉 For the priests, it is possible that the priests have a huge, long cast heal ad we just didn't notice them the first time. He did go from about half to full very quickly, though our kill time was long enough that it could have been any of a number of issues. I do like the addition of a mechanic to that fight that makes you have to pay a little more attention to the adds around him and would like to see those guys folded in to the zone MSR. The biggest request I heard in the group was for a Rikti kill counter. Outside of the above, I have a lingering concern about the trial format. Namely, DCs. DCs happen with some degree of regularity in MSRs, for a variety of reasons (and I had one last night on Everlasting along with about a quarter of the raid). I didn't test this last night, but if a DC ends up locking someone out of the trial, it could be a serious concern.

It's possible... but if you team a lot, it's not really necessary. With just self-buffs, my PA recharge is 1:10 and I don't feel a burning need to get that down to sub 60. If you're on a team, you probably aren't relying on them to taunt (and as others have outlined, even with it perma, their taunt drops when you resummon them).

That's the part I was after. I must have missed it where you declared the time for the first one. If I'm available, I'll join in. Can Leagues be set up like Task Forces, so you stay in even through DC? Of course, you couldn't bring in new folks if you did this, and losing a team or league leader would be complete chaos, most likely.

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How are you going to be coordinating this? I've been bitchy about the change and feel obligated to help out with the testing a bit, so I'd join in on this if I'm available when you're doing it.

A week later, I think Hami is fine. The coordination is slightly more complicated and a trial version would be very welcome (as it would give the leader more control over who joins and recourse to kick leechers - plus having two or so people in-zone that aren't in-league is just weird). I have probably run Hami more in the week since the population cap than the week before it and, overall, the time investment is only slightly longer. MSR remains the zone that's annoying to coordinate. The trial version will fix a lot of aspects of that, though that's a big undertaking to get into the game. The only real casualty from this, long term, is the loss of a huge group activity to do in-game (RP and similar evens are in-game, but they aren't really part of the game in the way a raid is). That large-scale action was really cool and, frankly, something that helps set CoH apart from other games. If we could find our way back to that in whatever form, I think it'd be a good thing.

Everlasting is still doing nightly Hami raids, though we're still trying to figure out the best/most fair way to handle the fact that about 70 people show up most nights. The goal is that everyone that wants to run can run at least once and so far we've achieved that... it's just complicated and involves some waiting.

Chaos United, but yes! We make it a point to run as much stuff as we can, and MSR is a favorite, which is one reason I'm expressing my concerns so much. The reason I would rather have no limit is that it gives you more freedom. If the leader says "25+" or "35+" or "50s only", that's their prerogative. If you show up, anyway, you're the jerk (and while you might not get caught sneaking in once, it won't do your reputation any favors in the long run). However, if it is hard coded at 35+, then there's no way to run it for 25+. One way requires some policing. The other way just flat-out doesn't work.

I think that there are some fundamental shifts that have happened since the game came back (and are still ongoing) that are at play here. From the hardcore live-player perspective, this is just a bug and a simple fix. No problem there. From the new player (or "never did this content before" player) that only started doing the content after the cap raised, it doesn't feel that way at all. Having lived with it this week, I'm in agreement that it was absolutely the best short-term fix for Hami. A 50 player cap on RWZ, however, is a pain in the butt. Especially with the folks for the weekly TF zoning in and out all the time (and all it takes to mess up RWZ2 is one group zoning in to the wrong version at the wrong time). Even with the proposed creation of an MSR Trial, I feel like we're losing something by taking out the large-scale activity that you could do with 100 other people. That's where my main complaint lies. Half the point of the MSR was the social activities that were going on in the chat while the bowl fight was going on. Everlasting had some great themed MSRs and I often ran MSR just because I knew it'd be another episode of Pep Talk. The 50 cap seems to have deflated that and a Trial version won't do anything to help. MSR doesn't seem to be any less profitable now, though maybe the profit isn't as consistent as it once was. The cap was set back to 50 because that's what it was before. I don't think any other real thought went into that number since it wasn't an intentional change to make it 200. It takes away the specific annoyance of having to jump zones repeatedly trying to fit your whole league into one. It doesn't otherwise change anything with regards to population. Mind blown. To be fair, the base port thing is a bug, in general, and the only reason PVP enters the conversation is because that's the best argument for fixing it. If the QoL changes are good, then I'll have no complaints. One reason I only fiddled with Classic WoW for five levels is that I strongly believe that travel time shouldn't substitute for content.

I am assuming the current version is a WIP (it was also produced with impressive speed - so thank you very much for that). I fully intend to get some folks in to the test server and offer specific feedback on this, but I'm not rushing as it sounds like there are major things unfinished. My experience has been that with double xp, below level 30, MSR is worth about five levels and above 35 it's worth about three levels. There's some variation based on the quality of the group (last night, I was an in exceptional group that got me four levels in my 40s), but those are pretty good ballparks. That doesn't really happen, but I'm in an SG that runs a lot of events like MSR and I do hear folks wanting to run them that will have to wait till the current one finishes. That is an advantage for the instanced version. Radical proposal: No minimum level (though the MSR itself doesn't need to level scale). The good thing about leagues is that the league leader can control exactly who is in there. If you show up with a level 5, it's on the league leader to see that and make the call. I'm with you in that this feels like something that will be added. I use the minimap during MSR more than I use it during most activities. I'm assuming it's only missing right now because this was a very fast turnaround. Having it stay is good. I'd really like to see it become a multi-league thing again, though. My complaints about this change, at their root, are mostly about that aspect of it. Assuming badges are a low-effort thing to add (yeah, big assumption), it would make sense to have entirely separate badges for MSR stuff in either version. I'd also like to see more done with the zone version (making it accommodate larger groups, mainly) while the Trial version becomes more challenging (with possibly greater rewards).

We were asked by a GM to NOT discuss economics. I'm abiding by that and not responding to above items I might otherwise respond to. One thing I keep bringing up because I think it's important, is that different severs are different. On Everlasting, the straight-up "burn Hami" tactic was only used sporadically and mostly in the last couple of weeks (and even then, only about half the time). Hell, on Sunday, we did a full version with about 40 players and cleared three blooms (and had to back off to deal with a double bloom at one point). You obviously had very different experiences and I've come to see that Hami really does need a limiter to it. I think Hami as a full-league trial is probably the best way for him to exist. Anyway, MSR is the one I feel needs to be uncapped. It was already reward limited and the difficulty difference between 48 players and 100 players seems fairly minimal. I'm not pushing for the 200 cap to be restored (since there are very real performance issues at a certain point), but 100? Even 75? I'm all for that.

There is nothing PVE players loathe more than having their stuff taken away because it's unbalanced in PVP. I'm glad to see some QoL improvements (which I hope to mean Base Teleporters that are worth using with more Oro Portal-like mechanics and CDs). I won't argue on Hami because you are right. Hami was out of line for the time commitment and difficulty (being honest, it is still out of line for time commitment per merit - it just requires more effort now). However... what were the rewards from MSR with 200 people? I never ran one quite that big (though I think there were a few I ran with a second overflow partially filled - so maybe 120 people). Was it really that high? I recall an average run turning up ~40 merits plus what you get off the drop ship. I never paid that much attention, though, so does anyone have solid numbers on the rewards before and after the change? I've had a real journey with this issue (a good bit of it chronicled here in past posts), and I want to reiterate that not everyone has the same experiences and sees the same things in the same ways. I feel like Homecoming is slowly transitioning from a game which had a fairly homogeneous player base (mostly hardcore CoH fans) to a more diverse player base (those same hardcore fans, but also folks that were more casual fans or are even completely new to the game). The zone cap removal was accidental (or, at least, it wasn't discussed with the whole dev team), yes, but there are a bunch of people playing now that didn't play it with the cap. That perspective has to be taken into account.

I'd really rather see a rule that says "don't grief raids" and then bans handed out for people that insist on it. That kind of player is probably toxic in other ways and not worth keeping around. Jerks are going to find more ways to be jerks. It's better to just eject the jerks. Which is fine... unless your league wants to allow all levels. We used to make a point of it, especially if we were running at around the same time as Hami to attract lower-level folks. The rewards are good for low level characters, but they're not out of line with a radio farm in PI. Level 10 might be a bit much, but a level 32 is only marginally less effective than a level 35. It's also something that leagues can self-police since those level 10s aren't going to be able to join without a level 50 leading their team. I'm not entirely sure why this is an issue. When there were raids rolling all the time and they were easy to get into, there was no real need to schedule a MSR. That was part of the great thing about it - if you showed up, there was probably one going on and you could probably join the overflow. So... I'd agree that lag (which I didn't really notice being a problem below about 150 players - especially with the 64-bit client) is a reason for limiting things somewhat. I disagree with the rest as being reasons to make this the only way to do MSR. To be clear, though, an MSR Trial as a second way to do MSR would be great. It could be tuned for higher difficulty and give better rewards in compensation for being harder. I just miss the big social gatherings that the old 200cap MSRs had become and would like to see both kinds as an option. Hell, make three! One for 35+, one for 50+ with alpha slot, and the open world one which allows more players of any level.

I think this is absolutely the right way to address Hami... and completely the wrong way to address MSR (unless the plan is to have two versions of MSR). I would much rather see MSR get a difficulty tweak and allow for multi-league battles. MSR had become a major social event and this does nothing to restore that.

Scan back in the #homecoming-feedback section. That's what was said, and it is what I base my impression of the speed of the fix on. Yes, there were absolutely other GMs present at big Hamis and MSRs during the last few months. I'm not going to speculate on what the disconnect there is.

Going off of something Leandro said on the Discord, he became aware of the bug on Saturday and had the patch in within just a few days. That's what I mean by "right this second". I agree that it needed to be addressed for Hami. I'm just not sure that it couldn't have been looked at a bit more before rushing the fix in. The current path of making MSR (and presumably later Hami) into trials is better than what we have now, but also inferior to finding a way to allow the multi-league raids.

I'd like to see not only this but all of the "only usable on others" heals allowed to work on the user. The only group-affecting buff I'd be wary of allowing the caster to use is Speed Boost, since that make an already popular set even more popular.

Two days in to the capped zones and my opinions have refined a bit. Hami is fine with the cap. I play on Everlasting and, in my experience, we weren't seeing the same kind of Hami-abuse that was apparently common on other servers, which is why this was a bit jarring. I think there's a lot of room for improvement (since having both a limited population and no tools for actually controlling that population sucks), but it's livable assuming you're willing to show up an hour hour early or wait an extra half-hour. However, as a limiting factor on the abuse, it's fine. MSR is the one that's suffering more. The difficulty between the capped MSR and the un-capped MSR don't seem markedly different, nor do the rewards (though never kept that close a watch on Vanguad merits per run so I can't say for sure). The additional traffic in zone makes it awkward and difficult when someone DCs or otherwise gets knocked out of the zone and having only two spots more than a full league in-zone isn't great for coordination.

That's fair, but I personally did not. The tone of the raid was very different and, frankly, a bit boring (as a controller, I was mostly hitting two buttons the whole fight). Maybe it'll even out and relax in future weeks, but the first night wasn't encouraging.

Part of the issue is that different servers/shards have different cultures. On Everlasting, I never saw the "run it 10 times" zerg rushes that were apparently going on with other servers. That gives me a certain perspective and it means your perspective might be less applicable to my experiences. Yes, we're adapting to the change, but that adaptation can't replace the social aspect that's lost in the smaller groups. Having done Hami in a single league (even before this nerf), I think there's a weird overestimation of how hard it actually is. It takes a bit more effort, yes, but it's not really challenging if you can follow basic instructions. My A+ answer would be to cap the zones at whatever level they need to be from a system performance standpoint and then tweak the raid to auto-scale the important bits based on the number of players in zone (or in a certain section of the zone for MSR). I'd rather not have instances, really, since the social aspect of 100 folks all beating up the same monsters is awesome and a big draw for me.

The thing is, I'm not arguing for an immediate raising of the Hami cap (the RWZ cap, yes - not Hami). I think the answer for Hami is probably a zone cap based on performance (things get weird at 150 people, I know, so probably a good bit less than that) and a scaling difficulty so that it's possible to do with different sized groups and remove the possibility of the zerg rush. I want more people in my Hami raid, but I don't want it to be one big rush to burn the thing down. I'm just saying that 400 merits in about an hour isn't hugely out of line with the long-established profit level of AE farming. Someone more knowledgeable than I am can comment on the history of it, but my understanding is that AE profits have always been very high and are generally accepted. Having an activity that could almost rival that isn't a burning house that has to be addressed right this second, which is how this was addressed.

400 merits only has a general value of about 100mil inf. That's less than fire farmer can make in an hour. So... your efforts put your rewards almost as high as someone sitting in AE and killing fire mobs for an hour? Should we break out the torches and pitchforks because you're breaking the economy by almost rivaling something that hundreds of people are doing constantly? In any case, I fell like the RWZ change is the one that makes the most sense to roll back without a lot of adjustment. RWZ rewards were already pretty in line with other activities and having more people didn't really influence that.

One thing I noticed last night is that hardly anyone stayed in the Hive to kill the buds after Hami fell, and quite a few people left the league either to alt or to make space for new folks. What might work best is if we were to do something like the following: The blue Hami runs in the Hive. People who can't make it into the Hive are directed to the Abyss where a different raid leader gathers up a second league. If the Abyss team fills, then they run a red Hami. The blue Hami team re-clears the Hive and does their second run there. If the Abyss team doesn't fill, then some portion of the blue Hami team joins the red team and clears the red Hami. Players from the blue Hami are mostly not doing a second run. The above plan would ensure that as many players as possible can run Hami once per day without really changing the schedule around. It would mean a lot fewer double runs and would not accommodate person #101 that wanted to run, but seems to be a fairer method in other ways. The only real problem with it is that it requires multiple competent leaders and targeters. Independent of the above, I feel like we should probably extend our monster clearing prior to Hami a little to allow a chance for more EoEs to drop if prices get too bad.