DR_Mechano

Yeah I do remember that there were talks that after issue 24 that they were, in response to the fanbase, going to spend an entire issue just dedicated to bug fixes and I'm guessing cleaning out the Technical Debt they accrued however all that never came to pass since they were shuttered long before that could even be possible.

To be honest I wouldn't object to the first tier 1 bot or Merc being melee and the others being their current ranged self, I mean at low level it's going to end up in melee range anyway since it can't kill things quick enough. Though you'd have to give it new upgrade power options and maybe increase the survivability of said melee bot (give it inherent AoE defense and resistances ala the lore pets). We know that different levels can give different versions of the basic pets. Thugs gets an Arsonist at level 18 and Mercs get a Medic at level 18. Now for Mercs since they're using a human NPC model can be given pretty much any weapons animation and it'll work fine so giving them some Broadsword attacks using the Machete model. Basic: Brawl. Slash. Equip Mercenary: Hack. Slice. Tactical Upgrade: Whirling Sword. Headsplitter. Obviously these version would be toned down a touch from the player version otherwise you've basically got a scrapper pet and this is just a basic, throwing it out there, not very serious suggestion. The only problem is Bots...unlike Mercs they're a completely unique model and giving them melee powers is going to look a little funky so we'd have to work something out.

I use it to transfer merits to my marketeer character who then uses said merits to buy Convertors. Since if I did it with the character who had them you have to send 1 convertor at a time...and it could be 300 worth of them...

That's my point though, it may still be bad pasta but at least most modern MMOs will actually purposefully document any changes, hell even WoW did it...but City of Heroes and a lot of early MMOs also didn't do this. As pointed out Ultima Online is THE longest running MMO and I freaking DREAD to think what the state of its code is in since it was release in 1997 and STILL going...

Here's the thing. World of Warcraft is probably in a similar state to how City of Heroes is. Despite its recent graphical upgrades it is still running on an engine designed back in the early 2000s. However what Blizzard did was continually and meticulously document ANY changes they made and they had their own departments which would talk to each other. So while the code itself may be kind of a hodge-podge of various different things it's so very well documented that they know how to do things like change NPC AI without breaking the entire game or hunter pets for example. They've always documented these kind of changes right from the very beginning and thus know exactly what each hodge-podge fix does, how it operates and how to fix it should it break or be able to work around it. Compare and Contrast City of Heroes which doesn't seem to have documented ANYTHING, as per the example of the people who did the Pet AI left the company shortly after CoV was launched and nobody knew properly how they worked resulting in Castles kludge fix to stop melee pets being completely useless BUT it also caused the problem we have now of ranged pets running in to use melee which he couldn't fix at all. It's also the reason Power Customization took so long to do. Back Alley Brawler and his team had to go about decoupling FX from power animations a task which SHOULD have been simple but apparently was a complete nightmare because of the way the game was coded and the fact that the person who did it originally had long since left the company with very little documentation on it.

Now you'd expect me to say World of Warcraft BUT that also features various hackjobs to get things working and remember they're running on an engine that's basically as old or possibly even older than City of Heroes but has the advantage of everything (and I do mean EVERYTHING) being documented in house and Blizzard having a specific way of doing things. Like do you know during a boss raid that spawns patches on the ground that it used to be invisible mobs that a placed during the start of the attack waiting on a trigger condition to spawn in the fire? By comparison in City of Heroes virtually nothing seemed to be documented beyond the basics. The people who wrote the Pet AI and how the pet powers worked seemed to have left virtually no documentation once they left shortly after CoV was released. It also seemed like while there wasn't NO communication there wasn't ENOUGH communication between everyone. The early days of MMOs are basically filled with stuff like this in order to get things 'kinda working well enough...ish'. I'd say it probably isn't until the later years of the MMO Genre (I consider us in the twilight years currently since the MMO fad has basically all but died and you almost never see new ones being released that aren't being ported over from South Korea which seems to produce them off an assembly line as players just move from one to the other) where games like Guild Wars 2 come in.

Now some of you may or may not have been following the saga of the MM pet AI discussion on the suggestion forums. We've got one person actually working on testing things to see if they can get ranged pets to stop running into melee and...in doing so...have discovered just how terribly coded this game is. You know why it took Back Alley Brawler and crew over a year to get power customization to work? Freaking awful coding. Like take what you think about Spaghetti code and triple it. Its just been revealed that there are, at some points, three different things which all do the same thing written by three different people and in many different file locations dealing with pet AI. It is honestly a wonder this game even works and the amount of hackjobs the devs did to get things to work in the later years of the game is just astounding and I mean that in a good way. Castle was right in that 'removing brawl' does literally nothing to pets, they still run in to melee range and just stand there firing off a ranged attack. I mean this has to be one of the worst programmed MMOs I've seen in a long time and its frankly a miracle everything works like it does. So hats off to you Paragon Studios, wherever you may be, you kept this clunker of coding going and even enhanced it somehow.

Yeah having actually looked at this stuff now I always considered 'spaghetti code' a bit a joke but it really is a complete mess of things. So you're telling me you've also got three things, all doing the same thing but written by three different people in three different areas? Hoooo boy...yeah I think I'll leave this to people who actually know what they're doing... Have you thought about putting the melee attacks for pets on a massive long recharge or would that basically be like 'removing their melee attacks' and completely pointless?

Keep in mind the staff animations are based on hollywood kung-fu idea of fighting with a staff ala Neo from the matrix...in fact several of the moves are lifted directly from that fight scene I'm not saying they're good but I'm just showing you where the ideas came from since the Matrix was a big influencer at the time. It's the same deal with Dual Pistols and Equilibrium being a major influencer.

This. One time at my old job, it was the Christmas period, we were short staffed and one of the temps was put on my Aisle part way through my shift. He had, at numerous times, shown he didn't care and worked as slow as possible (I get he's a Christmas temp and knows he's losing his job no matter what in like four weeks so why bother but come on man) but management had spoken to him and various other people had pointed out he was kind of screwing over whoever he was working with by doing it (if you finished your jobs EARLY it meant you could sort of hide away out back and do nothing for like the last hour). Now I had good faith that he'd taken the message and decided to work so I leave him be and start work down the other end about an hour goes by, I've nearly finished that section and I look down to see he has barely moved. Gritting my teeth I walk over to the manager and ask for my lunch break, the management asks me why since it's a lot earlier in the shift than I normally take it (like 3 hours in, I normally take my lunch break like 4 and a half hours in) and my response was. "Because If I have to deal with X I'm probably going to end up smacking him the face...and I don't want to be fired and you probably don't want the paperwork, I'm going for a smoke..." I'm normally a really chill person and very rarely get angry but for some reason the way the temp was acting just got my goat, like stole the goat and really ran with it. I had to walk away because I knew the consequences of if I didn't, guessing he was my Kryptonite.

Currently only William Valanence seems to know how this system works and have some inkling of what is going on with the Pets. See here's the problem with slapping on Brawl's recharge...It's, once again, our old friend phantasm. It doesn't have brawl, it doesn't have any melee attacks but it still charges in to melee. Now William mentioned that the Phantasm had no preference one way or the other with regards its config, it was set to a default one, not ranged or melee so setting it to Ranged may solve that issue but if it doesn't we'll know that it's not just having a melee power that's the problem. Having attempted to look through all the files and code myself I, like Weylin, am left staring at a complete mess with no idea where all the pet stuff is located and this is without trying to get a server up and running and just looking at the files. Looking at this stuff its a wonder the game is even running at all, someone was not taught the KISS theory on this game and I'm now positive each section (powers, FX etc.) was coded by a different person and then bodged together somehow...

Lady Grey and Malta Gunslingers are using the animations and sounds from the Pistol powers from thugs Mastermind powerset, not dual pistols. For the longest time this was the only way to get pistol ranged powers in the game. Saying that I would love to see a less 'gunfu' style of animations on pistols but that would require new animations to match the timing on the rest of the set.

By contrast ingame I've offered farms out to people on LFG and never had anyone complain at me that I shouldn't do it, never received tells, never been harassed over it...nuthin... Maybe it's because I'm on Everlasting which is where all the weirdos (like me) go because its the 'unofficial' RP server I mean there are people I disagree with like Panda Girl (or Bad Panda...something like that) but that's over build choices (IO build choices, not power choices) and the conversation usually just ends...it's never over how you play the game. I recommend to people at least do the taskforces on your first character if you're new to the game (the main ones, not the Shadowshard ones, I'm not a sadist) inbetween sessions of PLing, gets you some merits, if its TF of the week it gets you large XP boost etc.

In that case one of the guys here is probably going to have to talk to their guys and see how it was done. Also it isn't people crying about removing brawl it's more we're trying to figure out how we remove the melee attacks from ranged pets without them just running in to melee and firing off a ranged attack.

Hey guys just thought I'd post an invuln/Stj build and see what you guys thought about it. I focused mostly on plugging holes (like Psi) as best I could and bringing up other resistances as best I could. Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.3 https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer Click this DataLink to open the build! Level 50 Magic Tanker Primary Power Set: Invulnerability Secondary Power Set: Street Justice Power Pool: Leaping Power Pool: Fighting Power Pool: Leadership Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery Hero Profile: Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(3), TtnCtn-ResDam(3), GldArm-3defTpProc(5) Level 1: Initial Strike -- Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Hct-Acc/Rchg(7), Hct-Dmg(9), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(9) Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), TtnCtn-ResDam(5), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(7), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(37) Level 4: Heavy Blow -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(33), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(34), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(34) Level 6: Dull Pain -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(15), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(15), Prv-Heal/Rchg(19), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(19), Prv-Absorb%(23) Level 8: Sweeping Cross -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(23), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(29) Level 10: Resist Elements -- TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(A), TtnCtn-ResDam(11), ImpArm-ResPsi(11) Level 12: Unyielding -- Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Ags-ResDam(13), Ags-Psi/Status(13) Level 14: Taunt -- MckBrt-Taunt(A), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg(39), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(39), MckBrt-Acc/Rchg(39), MckBrt-Taunt/Rng(40), MckBrt-Rchg(40) Level 16: Resist Energies -- TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(A), TtnCtn-ResDam(17), ImpArm-ResPsi(17) Level 18: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A) Level 20: Invincibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(21), LucoftheG-Def(21) Level 22: Combat Readiness -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), RechRdx-I(34) Level 24: Rib Cracker -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(46), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(50) Level 26: Tough Hide -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-ResDam%(27), LucoftheG-Def(27) Level 28: Spinning Strike -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(46) Level 30: Boxing -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(31), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(31), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31) Level 32: Tough -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(37), ResDam-I(37) Level 35: Weave -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(36), DefBuff-I(36) Level 38: Crushing Uppercut -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg(40), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(43) Level 41: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(42), DefBuff-I(42) Level 44: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A) Level 47: Physical Perfection -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(48) Level 49: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(50), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(50) Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A) Level 1: Gauntlet Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A) Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A) Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A) Level 4: Ninja Run Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A) Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A) Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A) Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(36) Level 1: Combo Level 1 Level 1: Combo Level 2 Level 1: Combo Level 3 Level 50: Agility Partial Core Revamp ------------

Originally Tanks were basically like that they hit VERY hard but slowly and had the armour to back it up. If left alone they would take large chunks of health off so having multiple 'tanks' wasn't an issue. It was only through various iterations (like the introduction of 'threat' in MMOs) we get to today that the tank ended up being the low damage, high HP, high defenses we see today and that type of role they originally had split off into another form of melee DPS but without the defensive options (like Retribution Paladin or Arms warrior in WoW). One thing I find funny is that CoH invented the term 'scrapper' to explain a faster hitting melee dps that was inbetween the glass cannon of rogue and the glacial offense of Tank and has since become proliferated throughout the gaming jargon.

Head to the Ourodev wiki, it's only the Homecoming devs that are limited from talking about what they're doing. Sure they're working with Issue 23 code but the basics of it should still be the same. Though considering we haven't heard any news of them fixing pet MM either suggests it might be a tad tougher than it looks.

Well personally, being british, I'm a fan of the Challenger II, though I must admit I always did like the style of the M49 Patton and Sherman Jumbo... ...ah..not that sort of tank...

A touch off topic but Isn't this also the case with the F-35 trying to replace the A-10 in the close air support role AND try to be a fighter at the same time but it isn't quite capable of tank busting and CAS as the A-10 and isn't quite as good as current other fighters?

Well the ourodev wiki actually has guides on how to add costume pieces BUT naturally they're working with Issue 23 code and not Issue 26 code so who knows. Other servers have managed to add custom costume parts by hacking the Freakshow or PPD hardsuit into bits and adding them.

Eh fair enough was just a thought.

I kind of wish we had access to pre-fix code and see how that worked and just what it was exactly that Castle changed. Steampunkette I know you mentioned you were friends with him and I imagine he's a busy guy working in another part of the industry but you still got any contact with him? I mean I doubt he's going to remember exactly what he changed but some inkling would go a long way to guiding us in the right direction, I mean it's not like he's a dev anymore and thus has to 'protect us' or keep this sort of stuff hidden. I'm tempted to go onto the Ourodev discord and ask around in there since, unlike HC which has to be all hush hush due to trying to be 'official' they tend to be vastly more out in the open with regards fixing/changing stuff.

Yeah I mentioned that at the top of the thread, spaghetti code really is the case, it seems to be that this really was coded by many different people who never once spoke to each other. As Steampunkette mentioned the guy who coded Mastermind pets left fairly soon after and I get the feeling it was coded in such a way that HE understood it and thus never documented anything about it so when it came time for someone else to deal with it they're just left staring at a mess like giving a toddler spaghetti...

Ok so then just what in all the seven hells is causing Phantasm to run into melee and the fact that removing melee powers breaks things like the assault bot but somehow the lich works fine...Sweet Jesus H christ who coded this game?

I will point out that CoH isn't very structured in its coding, like, at all. From explanations from former devs the original team that coded CoH did so in a very odd way that seems to hint more at it being treated like a homebrew project with each person coding things individually with very little talk between them until they had to bring it all together and bodge everything into existence. Many former devs have mentioned how awful trying to work with the coding was. That doesn't mean what Castle did wasn't a kluge and probably with a bit more time could have worked out a different solution but it is understandable WHY it was such a kluge.