Linea

August 24, 2022

SR rates 13, but is so difficult to drive at that level that you'll fail 12 out of 13 times.

SD rates 12, is moderately difficult to drive at that level, but is unforgiving of errors.

Inv and Granite rate 10, and are very easy to drive, and very forgivable of errors.

/Ena Brute rates 9, and is moderately difficult to drive, but is unforgiving of errors.

August 22, 2022

I'd put DarkM and SS at the top of the list for +to-hit reasons. SS for Soft-Control, but that will be severely curtailed in 4-star where all mobs get at least some KB protection. DarkM and RadM for self-heal.

Then combine that with

and given that defense buffs are most common, that in turn puts Inv/ and Granite/, most likely with DarkM, in a really good place for 4-Star.

But I'm also still very fond of my SD/ ... ASSUMING ... I get defense buffs on the team. Which does tend to happen most of the time, but NOT always.

Why did I give granite a +? Because it's just so much easier to build. But that ease does indeed come with a cost as well.

SD/DarkM for most teams, but requires at least minimal defense buffs, and resists buffs are also welcome.
Granite/DarkM for those teams with the worst or least buffs. This is probably the random team pot luck build.
Inv/DarkM or Inv/SS for for the more well rounded but also more average teams.
RadA/SS for the better balanced teams. Here I can leverage the most taunting and aoe capabilities while also having the longest spike damage survival time to allow the otherwise well balanced team to compensate for any issues on the extreme high end. The best balance for the team as a whole is not necessarily the best balance for the tank as an individual. But unbreakable resists with nearly best in class absorbs and heals gives you and the team both a lot of room to compensate for issues.

I think that once teams get more familiar with the content, and stop making stupid mistakes like wanting to join a 4-star run with a level 35, this will eventually translate to a fair bit of jockeying for position between Inv/SS and RadA/SS depending on the team in question.

Over time the ASF has definitely been trending more toward the RadA/SS and similar builds. More team oriented, and less solo oriented.

But I also expect the ITF to be less forgiving of Leroy Jenkins and his fiends than the ASF.

August 22, 2022

Hornet can solo a 3-star ITF .... but it will take ... days. In my opinion, by any practical standards, 3-star and up are not solo-able.

INV/SS is a really good choice.

4-star I generally recommend: SD, Inv, Granite, and RadA. Each will have it's benefits and weaknesses. I suspect, that as a tank, I'll run most runs as SD/ with Granite/ second, But I'll be running Inv/ and RadA/ as well. ... (More accurately and off-topic, I'll probably be running most runs as Hornet set to 2 or 3 star, and not a tank. And on the 4-star runs I'll probably run Hornet or Kaede and let someone else be the Tank.)

Build for durablity. Anything above 1-star, or at most 2-star, and you are not going to be able to be both durable enough and offensive enough to solo this. You are the tank, build like a tank, and act like a tank. That full offense proc build will get you squished like a grape in 4-star.
If you are Resist based, cap your resists.
If you are Defense based over-cap your defenses, and push resists hard as well.
Push +to-hit as much as possible, as well. Starting with 3-star the average build will have to-hit issues. (SS, Dark, etc., has an advantage here.)
Bring healing, regen, etc as much as possible. At some point even the smallest amount of extra regen or absorb will save your life. The Absorb Proc for instance.
Bring buffers, you aren't going to solo this. ... At least not 3-star and up.

And a quote from elsewhere:

Quote

NO TANK is going to be able to solo a 4-Star ITF without at least very minimal support.

I have an alpha build Stone/Dark that comes close, but needs a tiny bit of healing, vengeance, or some other buffs. Lots of various small buffs could do it, just not 100% solo. A Stone/SS might also be a good option, but the loss of healing probably offsets the gain of +to-hit. The SD/Radm comes the closest, but lacks to-hit so she eventually 5 or 15 minutes later gets whittled down and can't hit the targets consistently enough to vampire back all the health loss. SD/DM could probably pull it off, right up till an EB with Tactics comes along. That tactics turning a 10% chance to be hit into a 60% chance to be hit. Ouch.

Look at the 801 Tank builds for defense and durability ideas. One of them is Inv/Radm.

4-Star everything has a minimum of 25 defense, and many have 50+ defense to at least one type of damage.

You will need tactics, kismet, and/or (Vigor or Nerve); or similar buffs, team buffs, Rage, other powers, builds bonuses, or etc.

4-Star to-hit calculations all have a 2x accuracy multiplier.

If you have a 25 defense gap in your armor, you'll be hit 50% of the time.

If you have a 10 to-hit gap in your accuracy/tohit then you'll miss 20% of the time.

if you ignore the 25 defense they all gain, then you'll miss 50% of the time.

4-Star everything has a minimum to-hit (defense soft cap) of 75.
*IF* there is even one EB with tactics, that defense softcap is now 100 defense!!! A considerable number of spawns have an EB anchoring them.

4-Star tactics can stack up to 4x. The defense softcap for pulling a whole room is now 175 defense!!!

4-Star Avs have a base to-hit (defense soft cap) of 95!
Most of those AVs also have tactics for a to-hit (defense soft cap) of 120!

If you go and pull a whole room, with a 4x stack of tactics, that AV will end up with a to-hit (defense soft cap) 195 defense!!! (Don't forget to wave to the tank defense hard-cap across the street)

Barrier's max defense is very short lived, you'll need 2 to 4 of them cycling.

DDR is a massive issue in the ITF, you'll need 2x Ageless Radial cycling to prevent cascade failure.

Make friends with a Defender. Offer them all you can eat free: Fresh from the vein Blood, Dixie Cincinnati Style Chilli, Imported Mexican Coca-Cola, Virgil's Rootbeer, Graeter's Ice Cream, and Krispy Kreme Donuts.

And another quote:

Quote

Not really. For standard content a 350 dps tank is very doable, but that tank in 4-Star hardmode wills squish like a grape.

Outside of T9s, the below conceptualizes what you're asking.

My scrapper cheats, pushes near the max dps for an armored scrapper build, but uses T9s to get away with it. As a main-tank on 4-Star you will *NOT* have the luxury of using T9s, you have to be hardened 24/7 no gaps. The T9s can skew things, but also at a cost. When I solo the 2-Star, I frequently have to wait 15s or so, before engaging the next group. Teamed I inevitably die because someone dove it too soon, people start dropping like flies, and my T9s have 10 or 15 more seconds to recharge, and take 10 seconds to execute and pull up full armor. That's 25 seconds total, and if I'm solo, that's 25seconds between each pull. Meanwhile Leroy has charged in and gotten the whole dang team wiped, I'm pulling up my armors, need 1.5 seconds to finish animating ..... *SPLAT*. This happens so often it's just not even funny anymore.

"Guys, give me just a second to finish here. Then I'll show you where to land on the <TEAM WIPE>"

"Uh, too late. I was gonna say 'where to land on the beach and pull and separate so they don't insta-wipe us.'"

August 22, 2022

EnA isn't an armor you can compare static in mids. It's a dynamic armor, constantly changing and adapting.

/EnA Brute rates in the 9.5 to 10 range for me, while Inv/ Tank rates a solid 10. *IF* you could translate that brute into a /EnA tank, it would be at least equal, and possibly higher. But we'll never know that answer until after it's translated and whatever gets changed in the translation is actually implemented.

But with that in mind, EnA is both more durable (at peak_, but also more dynamic, and considerably harder to drive.

Meanwhile, /Inv will peak lower, which will only be an issue in Incarnate and Hardmode Content, and will meanwhile be much easier and simpler to drive, and much more static and reliable performance.

Some people will prefer /EnA, others will prefer /Inv. That which is a strength to /EnA, could be considered a weakness by some players. Meanwhile, that which is the strength of /Inv will also be considered a weakness by yet other players.

August 22, 2022

49 minutes ago, Bulletman said:

That's odd. What problems are you referring to?

You can send unintended attachments because of indexing issues, corrupt your character, and/or email. If you only send text then it's not an issue, but when you start trying to send influence and attachments things can go wrong. Ask a Dev. It's been warned against in the past, more than once, they are not commands that were never intended for end-users. As far as I know it's not an issue with crashing the mapserver or systems, it's only your head in the noose, and people persist in doing it, but it IS your head in the noose.

I still respec in bases even though that is also strongly advised against, and I even know why, but I'm willing to risk it because it's quiet and convenient for me, and it is again, only MY head in that noose.

August 19, 2022

With the new hard mode content coming:

Incarnate: Assumes +1, but no other unlocks required.

Tier 1 Incarnate Arcs: These are the existing arcs. They are designed for 50+0 and 50+1, and once you reach 50+3 and Tier 4 Incarnates tend to be considerably easy.

Tier 4 Incarnate Arcs (Team): These are the new incoming arcs. Assume a full team of +1s.

Tier 4 Incarnate Arcs (Solo): Assumes all incarnates unlocked and slotted with Tier 4 powers in them. Hornet slaughtered these mercilessly, but I've also been told they are so difficult as to be completely unplayable. Hornet is a Tier 4 monster, by comparison at 50+0 these arcs are likely very difficult.

1-Star Hardmode: Assumes +1 and all incarnates unlocked and at least Tier 1 powers in them.

2-Star Hardmode: At least Tier 2 powers in all slots.

3-Star Hardmode: At least Tier 3 powers in all slots.

4-Star Hardmode: Tier 4 powers in all slots.

August 19, 2022

On 8/12/2022 at 3:45 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Any chance on that data refresh?

I was just looking for fresh numbers myself.

August 19, 2022

These commands are dangerous and should be avoided. Using these commands can and will lead to problems and has done so in the past. The only safe version is: /toggle compose.

August 17, 2022

1 hour ago, emeyer406 said:

... possession? ...

Hostless:

There is a graphic that plays at death of the Host, ... Host is the guy carrying the nictus that later becomes the Hostless.
There is a text banner, that plays at death of the Host, ... but is grey and hard to see unless you are solo or in a team.
There is a delay and then a graphic that plays before spawning of the Hostless. ... this is your Third and Final Warning.
Distance and delay before hold, ... Jump back when you see any of the above graphics
Distance and delay before hold, ... If above does not work sufficiently, jump back anytime you kill a Boss or EB, and use that distance and perspective to check for the graphics
Kill the Hostless, if you're solo your SOL at this point, do NOT engage them. If you avoided them, do NOT go back into range, just in case. (I have not actually experimented with going back into range after avoiding them, but I suspect it's not a good idea.
Cage them or Phase them. If They are in a different phase at expiration, the possession will fail. The phase MUST be active at the (deaht) time of possession, not before or after. If you cage them and the cage expires before possession is complete, then the target still dies.
Phase the target. Same as above.
Illusion Control to Distract them. The single best team tactic.
/bind tab "targetenemynear$$targetcustomnext enemy alive hostless" ... or something similar

August 17, 2022

There is a bug in absorbs ... if you cast the absorb before it expires or is ablated, it can reduce the efficacy of the second casting. This can cause your absorb and hp numbers to ping-pong. No details, may or may not apply to your case.

August 11, 2022

Assuming 4-Star

Tactics and Strategy - Leroy Jenkins eight 50+0 SO built blasters will probably end very badly.
Tier 4 Incarnates - No you don't have to, but you'll probably regret it if you don't.
A Tank - No you don't have to, but it sure does make it easier. An 801.6 capable tank is even better.
Support - If you have enough support to keep your tank alive, then you likely have enough support to keep the rest of you alive too. If you don't have a tank, you better double up that support.
Both +defense and +resist support - It's highly advisable that you HARD-cap both resists and defense. Ex: PBU+Vengeance is your friend.
Illusion Control - is one of the most effective ways to neuter the Hostless.
-regen - /Rad /Traps etc, is one of the most effective ways to neuter the GM fights. Keep in mind you need something close to perma -1000 regen, so while -100 regen is helpful, if that's all you have it's not gonna cut it. You will need 1000+ raw dps without -regen.

August 8, 2022

13 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

i find the -def debuff strips my scrapper in seconds

WIth enough recharge and ageless +ddr T4 you should be able to perma cap DDR. I don't even think it takes that much recharge.

August 8, 2022

This is my older Kat/Ena, but for extreme durablity, not damage.

Mu is the oldest build. DN 2i was probably the next build, and the D+ and G+ are the current dual builds.

Fun thing about Kat/Ena, is if you add Dampeners, which are dirt cheap, you can cap SL defense very early, and break the game by level 13 ish.

Kat ENA Brute - Mu 1i - [i25].mxd Kat ENA Brute - Prototype 801 - DN 2i - [i25].mxd Kat Ena Brute - 801 G+ - T9 3L - GLM DN Tactics - [i27].mxd Kat Ena Brute - 801 D+ - T9 3L - EF Tactics - [i27].mxd

August 5, 2022

2 hours ago, Here be Dragons said:

A Sentinel is no more durable than an IO'd out Blaster, Defender, Controller, or Corruptor.

Armored Blasters only rate somewhere between (2 - 4) on my durability scale, Sentinels rate between (3 - 6). There IS definite overlap there.

I've lead over a thousand 801 teams with my blaster in 801.2, but above 801.3, I swap to the Sentinel and run teams with her up to 801.7. 801.7 and above I'm most likely to swap to Hornet or a Brute depending on the team. Above 801.9 and up I usually swap to a tank. As Exceptions I've run all sentinel 801.7s, but usually pick 801.6 for that. The sentinel has also run on teams up to 15 (801.F), but it's really rare to get a good solid well balanced team that can do that, which is why I normally swap to something solid enough to anchor the team if all else fails.

Quote

I do think that you are over estimating the AoE damage potential for Sentinels. At

Only if you're teamed with something that can pack the mobs in tight enough, or pull to a corner. I've always based AoE on things that don't cooperate and don't bunch up nice and tight without help.
In-Game Testing. Percentages vs Heavily Armored Fire/Atomic Blaster.
- Pylon Testing (my heavy armor builds): The sentinel rated 79, the scrappers rated (177, 123, 91, 102, 77).
- MPL AoE Testing (my heavy armor builds): The sentinel rated 74, the scrappers rated (61, 61, 70, 58, 50).
There's also the Trap Door Testing Thread. But I don't think anyone has ever sat down and complied that.

August 5, 2022

8 hours ago, Here be Dragons said:

Which doesn't explain why sentinels are apparently so OP that they should have both a low damage scale, AS WELL AS, the lowest target cap???

They're balanced on being slightly less powerful than the average SO-Only built scrappers, no incarnates, no ATOs. Roughly 95% ST damage and 125% AoE Damage. The problem there is: "Who wants an average scrapper?", particularly when scrapper variance (best to worst) is 2.5x and "Who builds SO only?"

I have an 801 sentinel that runs 250 dps, can solo a +4x8 ITF, and probably a 1-Star Hardmode ITF as well. ... And ... the 801 scrapper runs 400 dps. Max variance vs Averages hard at work. Oops. (And a full offense glass cannon proc built scrapper can hit 700 dps, but would get obliterated in Hard-mode.)

Another related point, Sentinel Variance is the least of any AT. This IS good design. But it's also bad design when every other AT has a 2.5x or 3.0x variance, resulting in sentinels having a very very solid 'average' performance with little hope of ever exceeding average. But that is NOT the sentinel's fault, that's all the other ATs. No AT should have one attack set that is 3x better than another.

And then you can throw Proc Builds on top of that, and push offensive based scrappers to 700 dps, and you'd be lucky if the same sentinal hit 300 dps, maybe 350 at a stretch. But again, that's not the fault of the Sentinel, that instead lands squarely on the shoulders of Procs and how they help some sets drastically and not others not at all.

August 2, 2022

The average random team 4-star (aka relentless) itf has been running me 3 hours 150 deaths. This is probably what you should expect and plan for going in.

It's been run 4-star in less than 40 minutes. With the recent changes I expect that time to get even shorter.

August 1, 2022

On 7/30/2022 at 8:32 AM, DRoddo said:

Would a Dual Blades/Energy Aura scrapper be able to solo the new ITF at 2-stars if slotted right?

Maybe. People don't build this way, because until now there's no reason to build this way, so there's no data.

Built my way armored heavier than a tank, I have EnM/Ena listed as 400 dps, and DB/Bio listed as 330, which probably translates to 300 on DB/EnA (on a full armor build, not an offensive build). But, you also probably don't need to build entirely as durable as I do, but at the same time you definitely don't wan't to build to the dps proc-monster extreme. These mobs have +defense so you'll end up swishing, and you're not going to be able to afford to lose that extreme level of durability, not solo. Teamed you'd in theory be fine, if you nibble on the edges and soak up buffs. I do the latter when I'm in my armor valleys, and I point in front of the tank when I'm at my armor peaks.

So back to the issue of 300 dps vs 400 dps ( when built for armor, not dps), mulitplied by all the multipliers ... Could I do a solo 2-star, maybe. But odds are really good I'd have to overload more inspirations into email.

So, maybe.

July 29, 2022

17 hours ago, VoidSpawn2 said:

Then, I'll create another challenge and up my game a bit.

Congratulations, Good Luck, and God Speed.

July 28, 2022

Upgrade all mob groups into 801.6 rule-set mobs.

Limit the Incarnate boost to +1.

July 26, 2022

The DPS requirement has been reduced in the latest ITF patch. ~1000 dps is break even. But that doesn't really change the answer all that much, more accessible to lower end teams, but otherwise still difficult. We'll see what future patches change up or down.

July 25, 2022

I haven't tested SR/ on this one. But others have and said approximately 1 group 1 eb, any more and dead. So very similar to the SD/, but the SR likely have slightly higher defense numbers that make taking on that ONE, and only one, EB easier.

Most of the EBs, AVs, and GMs have Tactics, if I didn't already mention it. Charging into a group of EBs is hilarious. And since they are randomly sprinkled about, I did it more than once. That's how I eventually ended up testing on the towers. As far as I can tell there are no normal EB spawns on the towers, just the random patrol that rarely stops by.

July 25, 2022

On 7/21/2022 at 10:01 PM, EmperorSteele said:

Little help?

AE 801 (link) - Most of the builds are linked in one way or another in the main 801 thread. I would suggest updating them, as many are old by now.

Testing vs a 4-Star ITF Tower in mission 4.

The closest I got to immortal was the SD/Radm vs the 4-Star ITF Tower in mission 4. But as soon as you add even 1 EB to that mix, chance to be hit sky-rockets from 8% ish to 50% ish, resulting in *splat* without vengeance or some other buff to cover. 4 stacks of tactics would pretty much equate an insta-splat. /Dark would have been a better pick here and probably propelled this one from 15-20m to infinity, but the issue with EBs would persist. This one went down the slowest without EBs, but the fastest with EBs. It makes sense when you consider what tools you have available, what tools they are using against you, and how mitigation works.
Next best was Inv/Radm and Stone/Dark. Again /Dark is the better pick overall. The Stone/Dark lasted longer than the Inv/Radm, but that was likely a combination of slightly better resists on Stone/, but more so the additional +to-hit of the Stone/Dark build. That to-hit meant I was 95% chance to heal.
Last, not surprisingly, was RadA/Kat. Pretty much instant cascade failure, followed by health dropping slowly, but too fast to counter entirely on your own. Buff or support. This one can pull and control tons of aggro which is why I like it so much, but support is definitely required. Of course, support is required for them all, so I don't really feel that bad about it, particularly not when I'm juggling double or triple aggro cap.

Most of these builds are old, some are unfinished, likely all need updating. Use at your own risk.

801 Builds.zip

July 21, 2022

14 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I think that Rommy needs to be susceptible to taunt, even under the protection of his Barriers.

I agree. A tiny bit less chaos.

July 21, 2022

NO TANK is going to be able to solo a 4-Star ITF without at least very minimal support.

I have an alpha build Stone/Dark that comes close, but needs a tiny bit of healing, vengeance, or some other buffs. Lots of various small buffs could do it, just not 100% solo. A Stone/SS might also be a good option, but the loss of healing probably offsets the gain of +to-hit. The SD/Radm comes the closest, but lacks to-hit so she eventually 5 or 15 minutes later gets whittled down and can't hit the targets consistently enough to vampire back all the health loss. SD/DM could probably pull it off, right up till an EB with Tactics comes along. That tactics turning a 10% chance to be hit into a 60% chance to be hit. Ouch.

Look at the 801 Tank builds for defense and durability ideas. One of them is Inv/Radm.
4-Star everything has a minimum of 25 defense, and many have 50+ defense to at least one type of damage.
You will need tactics, kismet, and/or (Vigor or Nerve); or similar buffs, team buffs, Rage, other powers, builds bonuses, or etc.
4-Star to-hit calculations all have a 2x accuracy multiplier.
If you have a 25 defense gap in your armor, you'll be hit 50% of the time.
If you have a 10 to-hit gap in your accuracy/tohit then you'll miss 20% of the time.
if you ignore the 25 defense they all gain, then you'll miss 50% of the time.
4-Star everything has a minimum to-hit (defense soft cap) of 75.
- *IF* there is even one EB with tactics, that defense softcap is now 100 defense!!! A considerable number of spawns have an EB anchoring them.
- 4-Star tactics can stack up to 4x. The defense softcap for pulling a whole room is now 175 defense!!!
4-Star Avs have a base to-hit (defense soft cap) of 95!
- Most of those AVs also have tactics for a to-hit (defense soft cap) of 120!
- If you go and pull a whole room, with a 4x stack of tactics, that AV will end up with a to-hit (defense soft cap) 195!!! (Don't forget to wave to the tank defense hard-cap across the street)
Barrier's max defense is very short lived, you'll need 2 to 4 of them cycling.
DDR is a massive issue in the ITF, you'll need 2x Ageless Radial cycling to prevent cascade failure.
Make friends with a Defender. Offer them all you can eat free: Fresh from the vein Blood, Dixie Cincinnati Style Chilli, Imported Mexican Coca-Cola, Virgil's Rootbeer, Graeter's Ice Cream, and Krispy Kreme Donuts.

July 21, 2022

Not really. For standard content a 350 dps tank is very doable, but that tank in 4-Star hardmode wills squish like a grape.

Outside of T9s, the below conceptualizes what you're asking.

My scrapper cheats, pushes near the max dps for an armored scrapper build, but uses T9s to get away with it. As a main-tank on 4-Star you will *NOT* have the luxury of using T9s, you have to be hardened 24/7 no gaps. The T9s can skew things, but also at a cost. When I solo the 2-Star, I frequently have to wait 15s or so, before engaging the next group. Teamed I inevitably die because someone dove it too soon, people start dropping like flies, and my T9s have 10 or 15 more seconds to recharge, and take 10 seconds to execute and pull up full armor. That's 25 seconds total, and if I'm solo, that's 25seconds between each pull. Meanwhile Leroy has charged in and gotten the whole dang team wiped, I'm pulling up my armors, need 1.5 seconds to finish animating ..... *SPLAT*. This happens so often it's just not even funny anymore.

"Guys, give me just a second to finish here. Then I'll show you where to land on the <TEAM WIPE>"

"Uh, too late. I was gonna say 'where to land on the beach and pull and separate so they don't insta-wipe us.'"

Squish Semi-Immortal

700 DPS ................ 400 DPS ................ 100 DPS

Scrapper ###################

Brute ##################

Tank ##################

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