Maxzero

CoH actually was very holy trinity on release. Tankers did hardly any damage but were tough, Scrappers were melee DPS, Blasters were ranged DPS, Controllers and Defender did crap damage but of course were the only ATs with access to support power sets (including Heals). Scrappers were the only AT that could solo decently. Its only when Jack Emmert left that we actually started getting more flexibility in ATs. Empathy, Kinetics and Forcefields were the products of that time.

My point was some people were talking about how it was great to have power sets that were team focused and not very good soloers because it gave options. My reply was my suggestion takes away no options. Why does Empathy have to be bad at soloing? How does that improve the gameplay experience especially for the Empathy player? I group and solo. Why is it some supports sets can be fantastic at both yet Empathy has to suck at one? That isn't freedom thats a restriction. Where did I say people couldn't disagree? I just want a mechnical and gameplay reason why Empathy has to suck for soloing not: "but its always been that way!." Your analogy also sucks you do get XP from enemies you Confuse as long as you deal at least one damage. The XP calculation is actually quite generous you only need to do 25% of the damage to get 100% XP. Confuse is liked because it greatly accelerates kill speed giving you more XP overall since you go through missions faster.

Well actually the line is blurred when you take into account pets and such. It just seems everyone like options unless one of those options includes gameplay they don't approve of then suddenly that option is not okay. Some of the team focused sets getting better soloability does not diminish their group viability at all. Or we could put warning labels at character creation saying: "this set is focused for team play only and is not designed to play alone" so that everyone is on the same page.

Well yeah because it has no debuffs or CCs it has to be good for something. But hey if it turns out OP they can have a weaker version when cast on self. My goal is to make some of the weaker sets better at soloing any improvement is better then what they have now.

This isn't live anymore how many players actually use SOs in endgame? If you are running SOs what do you care about OP anyway you are already playing vastly sub optimally?

What moving of the goal posts the whole point was to make Empathy better at soloing? Some claim it would be OP so the obvious question is after the changes would Empathy be better then the current best Support sets for soloing. Judging by you avoidance is answering its pretty clear that its not.

So the issue is the solo part? A group of 1 are a problem but group of 2 casting the buffs on each other are perfectly fine? Seems a rather arbitrary line to draw.

My change won't remove any of your options but will add others. Whats the issue?

My change wouldn't affect teaming. Its for solo ability. If you guys are so cut up about you can do a weaker version if cast on self.

Make pets just the same level as the MM at all levels. Simple and effective. "But it would make MMs too good at leveling!" So what? They are already the most popular class at low levels but least popular at high levels and pet levels is a factor in this.

Mate, I know what I am asking for is a long shot. These 'team only' powersets are a relic from a game that no longer exists. Of course the nostalgia fanboys are not going to like me targeting one of the few sacred cows left. But I still think its bad design and will call it as such. So far no one has shown me how having team only powersets is good for the game because deep down they know that it isn't.

I'm okay with strong buffs for Empath. It has no debuffs, no real proc opportunities, no utility (pets, CC, etc). It has to have something going for it for soloing. The idea that some sets are just 'designed to fail' for soloing just seems like bad design to me.

Thats the point. They are comparable despite being team wide powers. Adrenaline Boost is 1 target only (not even perma without very heavy +recharge) and that target can never be you. Buffing isn't even Time/Nature/Dark's only trick either. They all have access to excellent debuffs in addition to their buff kit. Would be a really interesting to see, on the test realm, Empathy (and others such as FF) get self targeting buffs. No doubt all these people would take Empathy since it would be OP and solo AE 801 because it gives 'tanker level mitigation' right?

So you are telling me if Empathy had self castable Fortitude and Clear mind it would be better then Dark Affinity or Time Manipulation for soloing? Even after the change Empathy would still be weaker because Empathy has been power creeped to hell and back. Its noticable that all the later buff power sets (Dark, Time, Nature) all heavily toned back or near removed entirely the Ally only mechanic (Ally Rez be definition would be Ally only) . Even the developers on Live realised how poor a mechanic it is I don't know why players cling to it so. The powers are not even toned down despite being team wide: Wild Growth, Overgrowth, Farsight, Chrono Shift, Fade and Soul Absorption are some of the best abilities in the game so the argument that if self targeted they would be weaker is just plain wrong. Dark, Time and Nature showed that being a support can be more then just being a buff bot and can solo perfectly fine.

Yeah it does. My question why does it have to be that way? These changes won't make Empath as good as Time or Dark solowise so why make Empath even more locked into team only play?

Honestly its not even my build its one a speed runner gave me the idea for. Demons/Cold is actually a very strong combo since the resists and defence bonuses acually line up almost perfectly. The Demons end up at like 45% def and nearly 90% res to most things. The Burnout thing is a bit of a gimmick. I don't play MMs a much anymore since pets tend to suffer a bit in the current meta. But for ST damage they are obscene because powerful pets are one of the few ways of not being limited by single rotation. Its why Lore pets can such a big impact on DPS. Crab soldier 'Masterminds' can get extremely high ST DPS for the same reason.

Lol no it wouldn't thats complete nonsense. My Controller would still be better off with Time or Dark.

Not really. Is an Empathy Defender suddenly become some sort of solo powerhouse? I can already make a perma near Regen cap character with my Plant/Dark Controller. The buffs are team wide and I also get a huge selection of debuffs and pets to go with it. Empathy will self targeting buffs is still not that good.

Is there any reason why we still have these? Why do some sets loses 50%+ of their effectiveness if they have no one to cast their buffs on yet other powersets do not? Its not like Empathy is going to be OP if players can cast Fortitude on themselves. You now have implemented QoL changes where certain ST shields and buffs affect the whole party except the person using the power. You end up in situations where everyone wants to group with a /Kin but no one actually wants to play one because the /Kin player gets all the grunt work while everyone else gets the fun. So is this something that can be looked at?

One thing to note on Illusion when fighting pylons is that Illusion has no way to setup Containment but Pylons due to be stationary automatically proc Containment. Just pointing out that you will have slightly reduced performance on non stationary targets. If you are willing to spend a lot of runs on it to get good RNG a Demons/Cold MM could be very good on pylons. There is a video of a 9 second kill but that use Lore and all Temp powers so I don't know how slow it would be without them. Hah, the video is still around after 3 years. Obviously this is not a contender for the leaderboard but it may give someone some ideas. The Pylon dies before the debuff rotation finishes but they basically use Burnout to double stack Sleet and Heat Loss combined with Demon -res for a few hundred total -res.

The key thing with Plant/ is that its the only Controller Primary that does good AoE damage. Seeds and Creepers are so far ahead in AoE clearspeed its not funny.

Funnily enough that /Storm can proc the Immobilize is actually really useful otherwise Tornado and LS will just make enemies run everywhere. A Arsenal/Storm combo might actually work...kinda. The turret would probably work better as a tank if it were shorter range. Be cool if it were a flamethrower like turret (maybe a Cryo version for theme?) instead of a boring old gun turret.

In your way you are right because Controller gain so much power from another broken system: procs. Outside of procs Containment is literally consistent double damage for Controller attacks. Can you make a viable Controller without using Containment? Sure if you rely the crutch of PA (which itself is problematic balance wise) otherwise you are going to a rather boring time.

The thing is Arsenal Control as it is now is actually in an okay position. The problem isn't the set itself but the Immobilize Containment meta that its trying to fit into. The same way you didn't fix Defender and Tanker damage issues by giving them new OP attack sets you are not going to fix the reliance on Immobilize by adding new sets (unless those new sets are crazy OP which just causes new problems). No other AT is so critically reliant on their passive for damage as Controllers are and it has and will continue to hamper design until its solved. Control sets are cookie cutter because Containment makes them so. This was never fixed on live but you guys now have the power to finally solve it.

In many ways the issue isn't Arsenal Control but the Containment passive itself. If you are literally going to lock of 50% of an ATs damage behind the presence of certain debuffs that anything that cannot provide that debuff is going to struggle. The exception that proves the rule is Illusion Control: the set literally has multiple, taunting and invincible high damage pets just to be competitive with Containment. You want to break the Immobilize meta or at least weaken it? Fix the cause of it Containment instead of reworking sets over and over trying to make them fit in a broken meta.