Neiska

Um, no, it isn't "DiScRiMiNaTiOn." Discrimination based on what, exactly? Race? Gender? Religion? Preferences? None of those factors come into play, since we are all faceless strangers to one another. Secondly, if a person wants to play with only their friends, or only people in their supergroup, or any other specific group of people for whatever reason, they are entirely allowed to do so. No one is obligated to play with you, or anyone else. If someone helps a friend, they are under no mandatory obligation to then offer that to everyone else. And to suggest that reeks of entitlement that I usually go out of my way NOT to team up or play with. Heck, I have refused to help or team with specific people based on what they have said in general, or how they acted in teams before, or even posted here on the forums. And I am entirely within my ability to do so. To play with whomever I like in whatever manner I choose. This game is an open sandbox. We must do "nothing" aside from share the world. That is all. Now many can and do more, and it is good for a community to do so. But if a person wanted to offer to power level everyone in the game EXCEPT you, then by all rights they could. They don't have to like you, play with you, or put up with another person's BS, and thank God for that. And I take a pretty dim view of someone telling another person what they can or cannot do if they are not a staff member.

Whelp, that didn't take very long.

Here's what I was doing, 3 boxing MMs. Here's a discussion/guide about it, but it is a little out of date. But still has lots of good information and a video.

I ran a Demon/Rad for a time. My biggest complaint was it relies on debuffs and toggles, which are pretty small in size. If they were a bit bigger it would be more manageable, but even if you group the pack into a tight ball it may not affect everything, which your pets more or less rely on to survive. It's not terrible or anything, it can be potent. Its debuffs are just so teensy in size that it can be frustraiting to play. If too bosses are standing a good distance apart, which one do you debuff and so on.

This is 100% just me musing here, but I imagine if it is like any other sort of team of people it varies person to person. But overall, the general feel is that they aren't "anti-farm," only anti AFK farm. Or at least, making that more challenging to do and not so simple. I never disagreed with a line being drawn, only where that line is and how they arrived to it. Not to sound cliche here but, I will use WoW to demonstrate my point. There were two main modes of the game - PVE and PVE. Now, the different classes had the same powers in both game modes. Some powers would do extra things in one mode or another, or simply not work at all. As time passed, they began to "bleed" the different modes, which left neither side happy. The PVE people saw their powers gutted and trimmed down, which made every class a 4 button rotation with an extra cooldown to use now and then. While the PVPers saw it as an overall nerf across the board. Not a PVPer myself, but it was described to me as they turned the game of chess into checkers, or even rock-paper-scissors. I fear the similar thing happening here. I don't want them to use one form of gameplay as a sort of "measuring stick" to balance everything else against. If it were up to me, it would be give and take. Gain some, loose some. Knock down the big stuff a few notches but bring up a few other things as well. To their credit they have done that somewhat, with the new prism salvage and the like. It isn't 100% even yet, but it's gotten closer, at least where the economy is concerned. But to be clear, I make no claim that they used any particular mode to balance everything around. Only that's what it feels like, at least from my side of the fence. One part of game play has been propped up, while the other has taken a few notches down. In this case, ITFs and the like vs Farming. Now before you light your torches, I am not making the case that INF should be put back to where it was. But it would be nice if "something" was given to farmers as well, even if it was something minor or cosmetic. Even if it isn't EXP or INF based. Just something that says "Hey we see you, and we value you as a part of the community too." Because from the farmers side of things, it's been nothing but lost ground. And this need not even be farming specifically, but I would make it based off AE use or Map creation. As far as what that something might be? I confess, I have no idea what would be acceptable or even possible. Again, if it was my decision, there would be badges or perhaps a costume or something for AE map creators, or even if someone made a map that got so many great ratings and the like. Even if it was just a title like "Creator" or something, that little bit can go a long way to soothe ruffled feathers when only one side has gotten all the bells and whistles. I do honestly believe that the Devs aren't out to get anyone. They could nuke the AE from orbit if they wanted to, just to be sure. But they haven't. They did make afk farming more difficult, true. But not impossible. The rewards for AFK vs Active farming is more noticeable now as well, but I don't think anyone would argue against that, even among the farmers. Just my musings on the matter.

I appreciate the gesture, but no thank you. It's mostly the "rushed" gameplay I detest so much. But I do appreciate the offer. Especially since we so often disagree with one another. Best wishes.

While I appreciate what seems to be genuine attempt to help, I have already attempted such things. If you make your own group, people will largely still do as they please irregardless. And it's likely better for everyone involved for me to just play alone or with friends.

"Few" being entirely subjective here. And I never said I refuse to play with anyone. Only that more often than not, I find random teams unenjoyable. Nearly every team unless specifically stated otherwise just runs ahead as fast as possible or as I call it, "gogogo" style of gameplay reminiscent of Leeroy Jenkins. That isn't a rare thing to happen. I would call it fairly standard when teaming with random strangers. So these days (at least certainly more recently) I find it far more enjoyable, faster, and more profitable to either play by myself or with those whom I am already acquainted with. I do get asked on occasion by friends to come on a team with other randoms, and I may or may not. It mostly depends on my mood and activity. But I never just join entirely random teams anymore, regardless of what the activity is, for reasons already mentioned here and elsewhere. But to summarize, the difference being - Not every farmer or player who enjoys AE has only done that activity, but biostem did clarify that. But nearly every team (or at least far more often than not) might as well be speed running.

I appreciate the clarification; however, I do think that your point is too vague. For starters, "where" is this massive number of new players, or players that have never done anything outside of the AE? With respect I think you might be painting the picture much larger than what it truly might be. It's not as if this is a new game, or that we have massive waves of new people. I hope we would agree that the massive wave of people have come and gone and we are now settled into a comfortably stable community. And no matter what you or the staff does, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink. And were I a betting woman I would bet that the kind of players you describe would fall into the slim minority. There are likely more farmers, pure rpers, or even pure market-players than people who have done AE and "absolutely" nothing else. I would gather it is the smallest of groups of the community. Though to be fair, that is my mere opinion. We can't really say there isn't a large group of such people any more than there is one. But are you certain you aren't exaggerating their numbers here? Personally, I think it's borderline a non-issue but both a self-solving one and one not really worthy of trying to "fix" on the staff's part.

Your question is multi-layered, but I hope to answer best I can. 1. The reason why you are taking more damage is firstly, if you are fire, some fire primaries do -def now which you seem to be aware of. However they also changed the AI. Before if you were at aggro cap (and alone) the other mobs would twiddle their thumbs, or idly mill about meekly waiting their turn. That isn't the case anymore. Now they will use ranged attacks, if they have any. So you are facing more attacks than previously. The counters to this depends if you are an active farmer or afk farmer. But I would urge a bit more +def, plus ranged def as well, coupled with higher resists and/or passive regen. If you have to be selective, personally I've found that having a higher ranged defense and regen goes a long way. Many farming builds don't even look at ranged or regen, but that also largely depends if you are an active or inactive farmer. An active farmer wasn't as affected as inactive ones in most cases. 2. The amount gained was indirectly "nerfed," as in it wasn't targeted specifically like EXP was. Now it matters what you fight and what powers they have. A mob with few attacks and no ranged abilities won't give full INF. (I am uncertain if this affects their EXP as well, but I don't believe it does.) Some of the older maps with mobs just thrown together can award less INF compared to before. But many of the newer maps with actually well made enemies to fight award more closely than what you might be used to. My advice is to try some of the newer maps, or make your own. Hope this helps

I thank you and @InvaderStych 's kind words. But I do think there is malice, at least in part. Both there, and in the forums and discord as well. And personally, I don't care what the activity is or what the reward is. If there is malice present, I simply will not take part. And if there isn't malice, it certainly feels like it at times. If you enjoy certain activities or point out certain things you are shunned, shouted down or given the brand of cain. Honestly, it might be better for everyone if those that disagree begin to just ignore one another but were I a betting woman I would bet that wouldn't be what's best for the game either. But that's just me musing.

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. The internet is going to internet and people are going to be people. But I never made the case about bugs shouldn't be fixed, or that things shouldn't be balanced. My original reply was to the original post that suggested players who enjoyed farming have unrealistic expectations and that's why they don't like random teaming. Some people like farming simply because they find it more enjoyable, or at least more enjoyable than other activities. There is no "right" or "wrong" in this. Different people are going to like different things. That is normal, to be expected in fact. But I do tire of seeing negative sterotypes about farmers and the moment you point out that there is negativity in teaming and that not every "nonfarmer" is a saint then people light their pitchforks.

Thank you for proving my point. I gave an example of a double standard, and you take it personal. All I did was point out that you ignored what he said and addressed mine. But that's fine, you can go on my ignore list too.

According to who? Experiences are personal indeed, but its disingenuous to try to minimalize another's, wouldn't you agree? And I disagree with their original post which includes a bland and open opinion about all farmers. If they are allowed to make opinions about all famers, then I am most certainly allowed to voice mine about the random teaming. Moreover, I find it a little illuminating how you addressed my attributional language, but not theirs. And how is what I said toxic? Everything I said has actually happened. Now I doubt my personal experience is the average experience and I suspect we would agree on that. But it's pretty intellectually dishonest to try to minimize that experience while at the same time ignoring it or pretending that part doesn't exist, or that it isn't part of the equation in play either, or that it would impact a player's decision to play alone or do team activities. And in addition, I would like to point out this is exactly what I am talking about. Someone says something suggestive about farmers and it is given a pass. But anytime someone says something about the other part of the community it's given whatever label is convenient at the time. Even if what is said is true based off personal experiences. Example: "Farmers are bad" - no one but farmers say anything. And, if they do, it's given a rebuttal. But, if someone says "well, teaming can certainly suck too" - Oh, but that language and opinion is labeled as negative, toxic, undesirable behavior. Double standard.

Or perhaps, just perhaps mind you, some of us have already done so and find it to be an unfriendly, unfun, agonizing experience that we have already done numerous times. Personally, my biggest turnoff to "the traditional way" is the GOGOGOGOGO mentality. Every group you join zips off as fast as possible, and if you lag behind it can turn toxic pretty quick. I would rather play at my own pace, doing an activity I enjoy alone, than be corralled into doing an activity I might enjoy with a growing community of randoms that gets worse with time. Here is a short list of things I have experienced - You don't play the meta? Then you are trash. Don't play X, Y, or Z? Trash. Didn't take X power from a set? Trash. You are slow? Kicked. Never done this before? Sorry, the next group can explain it to you. Don't have team teleport or X optional power? What are you even doing here? You play X AT? Garbage. We will kick you to make room for someone else. The best one though? Getting booted from a team because I am deaf and couldn't hear glowies. That one took the cake. In all my online experience I have never had that happen in any other game until now. You want to know why so many of us farmers rather play entirely alone or with friends? That is a hint as to why. 2 years ago it wasn't so bad, but now it's seriously starting to resemble other games like WoW now, with the "git gud" attitude. And if it comes down to it, where I can't just have fun in my own way and have no option than to play with the "gogogo meta git gud crowd", I'll uninstall and play something else. My joy of the game doesn't override the BS that can come with teaming with randoms. So no, I respectfully decline the "traditional" way.

Less "do X or else" mechanics, and less rock-paper-scissors. More solo friendly, in respect to the classes and activities. Some ATs or powersets can be quite a chore to level up alone. More politically neutral, with regards to the storylines and characters. Less nerfing of things just because they are popular. More fixing old problems and less focusing on the new shiny. Better balancing/niche of ATs/Powersets. Overall, it is quite good but there are still things that stand out, especially on certain ATs.

You: "There is no anti-farming narrative." Also You: "You farmers are entitled, petulant, hostile, unfriendly, drama queens! You reap what you sow!" Uh huh. And those against farming have been nothing but reasonable and respectful? Please, spare me. One person can't even post a different opinion or option about farming without 3-4 people dogpiling them. Personally, I think its the anti-farmers who have been more of a drama queen here. It's not the farmers who keep stirring the pot. And you have a funny view of "extending the hand of friendship" with the "Play this way or else" context. I mean, if you consider this respectful friendly discourse, I wonder how you might treat someone you consider an "enemy." Honestly? It's getting to the point where I don't even have to say "I told you so." And besides all that, people can certainly voice their opinion, which may include disagreement or dis-satisfaction with a change or update. And these sort of responses does little to address those concerns or as you call it, "extending the hand of friendship." Constantly attacking people with negativity is not offering them an olive branch, and you of all people claiming such made me spit out my coffee.

Given that no player here has access to the actual data, and only know what the Devs who do have access have said, I would argue that everything here is based on opinion or feelings. All we know for certain is how much a player can make doing a certain activity. We (the players posting here) don't know how many people farm, for how long, etc etc.

I don't think it should be called "hate speech", just a difference in opinion. Some can be passionate or aggressive with their argument. But I see more "anti-farm" conversations in game than on the forums, but that's just me.

Alright, the problem stated (not by a dev directly, more so the musings here on the forums) was that there was too much Inf in the market. I don't disagree. And reducing farming pacing can slow inflation. I don't disagree on that either. That said however, That is missing the forest through the trees. If you slow what is gained/created, that doesn't take anything away from what is already floating in the market to begin with. So if the economy is the concern which has been suggested many times, why is only slowing the inf creation seen as the only solution (at least by some here) and not removing what we already (allegedly) have too much of? You can't fix "too much money in the market" (inflation) by simply slowing its creation. At least not in a market such as ours with restricted/limited expenses. I am not saying we need to make costume changes cost 100 mil. Or that only ultra-billionaires should afford bases. But I am convinced that there should be some balancing on the "upkeep" or "cost" for players as well, not just how much INF is created. For I hope we would agree that the majority of costs aside from Enhancements is more or less a drop in the bucket. If you aren't gearing up a character, what you spend is more like a needle in the ocean. Not only that, but it would also be fair to balance the other side of the scales. Not EREGEOUSLY so, but at least looked at and adjusted where necessary. A simple comparison of how much a typical character earns vs spends once they are fully slotted and geared would be a fair comparison, just as comparing AE farming to non-farming activities, and I don't think such is unreasonable. Nor is honest analysis a house fire either. And if people were truly more concerned about the market/economy, then they would be open to such comparisons. If they are not open to even collecting data on such, well, then I would venture to say their main motivation isn't fair market balance. TLDR - We could use more money sinks, even if they were purely optional or cosmetic in nature. PS - An afterthought ~ You made the point of reducing the amount that can be gained by farming, which would increase the amount of farming required to reach whatever goal a person might have. And in the same breath you say adding more money sinks would increase the amount of farming required. Do you not see the irony in this?

I agree, farming is still strong, particularly if you are an active farmer or multiboxer. But for me that isn't the crux of the issue. I would argue that how people discuss/disagree about it does more damage to the community than the AE ever did. Either you agree, or you are "a part of the problem." And that mentality of - "I am right. Those who do not think as I do are wrong" can do quite a bit of damage to a small community such as this. It is human nature I suppose. People will always find a reason to disagree. Or if you have a group of people in the room, there is always an outsider. There is actually a psychology term for this but it escapes me at the moment. Speaking personally though, after this rather tiresome ongoing debate I have noticed that things have come to the point that people are growing apart, instead of together. Some will refuse to interact with others, rightly or wrongly, it doesn't matter. And I can't say I blame them for feeling in such a manner. I most certainly won't be eager to play an activity that I personally dislike, with people I regularly disagree with, no matter how big of a carrot is offered. But there is a silver lining though. Things have gotten more peaceful as my ignore list has grown, so there is that I suppose.

The forums are hardly the only method of communication. If anything it is the one used by the fewest people.

Ah, and there it is. You see, people have repeatedly said "we don't hate farmers, we just want to make things equal." But as soon as someone brings up other ways to make people equal, you know, being realistic about the topic and not one sided, (because farming is not the end all-be all factor in play here) you go on about - I never said anything prevents farming entirely as you suggest. I only pointed out that the most vocal part of the forums are decidedly anti-farm, and that there are other means to also make the market more balanced. But since that involves you know, people who are anti-farming having to also make changes as well, it's no surprise they might dislike it. Which proves my original point - It was never about the market. If it was, they could balance more than one option. And the Devs never said anything about the markets, they stated they want all activities to give equal reward, which I can respect and agree with. But then people tend to nitpick about AFK farming vs Active farming, or scoff when I bring up non INF rewards as well. I still have yet to get an answer one way or another if they have ever taken non-inf rewards into their calculations or not (which I doubt.) So spare me your statements that are pure conjecture. You don't have access to the actual server numbers or data, which makes all of this your mere opinion.

No, that was before my time. I never played live but I certainly heard stories. As far as "what about the new people," those same new players get merits from story arcs, or can sell one rare salvage for 400,000 on the AH and have plenty of INF to get them all the way to 30. I have done many self-found "iron man" runs, and the amount a new player gets is pretty much a non-issue, with or without farming. What it would affect, is the increased expenses for not just new players but for everyone. (thus reduce the inf in the market) And isn't that the purpose of the AE changes? And precisely how many "new people" do we get anymore? I would also argue that INF isn't the end all dynamic, game knowledge is. And the knowledge is there for anyone who cares enough to look it up. If the amount of wealth in the market is the problem, then reducing the amount generated is only one side of the issue. Adding increased costs/expenses is the other side of the balancing mechanism, and I have yet to see any serious discussions about that. And I am going to predict that most people will be against that, even the anti-farmers. Because its easy to point out a problem and shoulder the burden on someone else, but for it to affect everyone equally? We can't have that can we.