Neiska

Bet they would do better than mercs.

In the groups I run with, it's done the exact opposite - made farming more necessary, in part due to the modification to the AE, as well as some ATs not being desired or feasible in the new high difficulty ITFs. I tried to join in the new fun, but given that my favored ATs aren't exactly welcome or desired I have pretty much shelved that play. So I find myself farming even more than before, and teaming with random people even less. I have also noticed a bit of a shift in some of the attitude during some in-game activities as well. I won't elaborate further because I don't wish to start another argument, suffice to say that it is an atmosphere that I have very little desire to be a part of. Not to be taken as gospel for everyone, granted, just sharing some personal experience from myself and the groups of folks I typically run with. But to say it's been conductive to make "everyone" team more simply is inaccurate because for at least part of the community, its been the exact opposite.

@Ukase I usually find myself agreeing with you on some things, but I think you may have missed the forest through the trees on this one. As far as the Prismatics themselves, I understand the need for them. If they made the new costumes obtainable via merits, inf, or an already existing currency that people likely have stockpiles of already, then day 1 of the page 4 drop people would have all went out and spent what they had saved on the costumes, and that would have been that. Nothing new to strive for, nothing gained, no new goal to aim for. As far as how to obtain them, the rates, and the prices to trade them, well, I'm more or less "meh" on that part of them. The ones I have found I have pretty much given away to friends, as the rewards are only cosmetic and entire costumes at that. Nor do I particularly like any of the current costumes either. But there are those that do, and that is wonderful for them, and I don't mind helping my friends get them either, as I have multiple piles of INF already, so it benefits me very little to sell them on the AH, I would rather help a friend than get a bit more money. Speaking of prices, I don't think the staff really directly control that, at least not yet. Now yes, they were selling for a whole truckload, but now as there are more on the market the price is coming down, and I don't think that is really a surprise to anyone. As a currency, they don't really stand up due to the low "turnover" rate on them. Converters for example have a very high use/turnover rate, with a heavy consumption. So it will always be worth your salt to get those. But these Prisims? I suspect really only a part of the community is buying and consuming them, I suspect most are actually stockpiling or selling, which will make their value decrease further. In time I expect them to drop to the Enhancer range, of 1-2 mil or so each when it finally bottoms out, but that is entirely guesswork on my part. As far as diminishing returns, I suspect that was placed to prevent people from turning them into the new farming activity. Again, guesswork on my part, but it makes logical sense. If you want to min-max your runs for profit, you will need to do them on multiple characters, for good or ill, take from that what you will. But I would like to highlight that this is an optional reward here, for something that's entirely cosmetic. Now if these were salvage for a new T5 incarnate power or something then sure, I would grant you it's stifling character progression. But we are talking costumes here. Something that is entirely optional and has absolutely zero impact on your characters performance. But if it did then yes, I would be on your side of the fence saying it was an un-needed hamsters wheel or steps to take, but that isn't the case.

While I respect your opinion, I would like to point out that the change has pushed out people from teaming as well. From the "only X classes/powersets" to some endgame content getting a bit toxic/plain unpleasant to be a part of. Only remarking that in some circles, it hasn't closed the gap, fostered balance, or encouraged people to play together, it's done the exact opposite. I wouldn't call that a success. And no I am not calling for a nerf, or for them to remove things. Only shining a light on the fact that it isn't all sunshine and roses as insinuated in some places.

Honestly I just hope that those who make decisions on thing notice the new trends and do something. I don't have the head to know what should be done, and I am not crying for a nerf either, if anything I hope that this may shine a light on which ATs/Powersets that could do with some love.

No, it doesn't. But thank you. But this is blooming into more than a MM problem. And so far from what I've seen, it's starting to get worse. Now not only are some ATs being shunned, but some powersets within desired ATs as well. Personally, I think it might be because people want the quickest, smoothest, most hassle-free clear times more than the actual challenge. No surprise there though. Call it a hunch but the same people who were going "we need harder difficulties" were likely min-maxing down to the fraction of a decimal point. When you design a build like that, it shouldn't be any surprise that 99% of the content is face roll. But I do worry that this will only get worse as time goes on. Sure, some old content that required planning and strategy is face roll now, but to me this feels different. Because certain tools/buffs/debuffs are required, or you are gonna have a hard time. What I find most depressing though is I redesigned one of my MMs specifically for hardmode. My Electrical MM has Fardays Cage, T4 Clarion, even RoP for just in case emergencies, Heals, Absorbs, Endless END for everyone, a bit of CC sprinkled in, and what damage I can add to the pile. Even after all that fine tuning still no luck. It's pretty much "No MMs, Sentinels, Brutes, VEATS, Epic ATs, and only X, Y, Z powersets desired on Tankers, Corruptors, Controllers, Dominators, and Defenders." At this point I think I am going to hang up my MMs entirely as far as teaming is concerned. I thought about making a tanker or something specifically for Hard modes, but then I question if I even want to play with such people. I have given thought to foregoing random teaming entirely, save for SG mates and friends. And going by private conversations elsewhere, I am not the only one. This obviously isn't everyone's opinion, but in the group of folks I hang out with, this patch has done far more to discourage people than encourage them.

For me it feels more like a mix of trying to argue with a brick wall and hearding cats.

Whelp, this thread is likely about to be closed again. Patch 4 sure has brought out the best in the community.

Update: Got turned down from six 4 star teams now for being an MM. Got to do one 2 star with my Crabber SoA. Got turned down from a 4 star with my scrapper. (To be fair they needed support. Had plenty of DPS already.) Got turned down from three ITF teams on my tanker because I was Bio-Armor, and they wanted Shield Defense, Invulnerability, or Super Reflexes. Team leader said they wouldn't accept any other primaries. Patch 4 sure has brought out the best in the community. *slowclap*

And I've been mass-thumbed down as well. So don't try to paint that as a "pro AE crowd" thing. And that bit of snark at the end was really unnecessary. I mean I can say something like "Just as the anti-farmers will do anything to shut down AE" but that is hardly respectful or even productive. If you want respect you have to give it, much like many things in life. Food for thought.

Well, I usually have a build in MIDs, or at least a rough idea of what I want before I even create a new character. At least the AT, primary and secondary selected. I usually have 1-2 costumes premade as well. Once I am in, it takes about as much time as it does to get the first mission in mercy and go get the spy and longbow. But I do spend hours just messing around both in MIDs and the Costume creator, saving things that I may or may not ever even use. Sometimes getting a name that I like, that fits the theme, and isn't already taken proves to be the most difficult.

If you are going to quote someone, quote them correctly. I never said that as you suggest. Someone else said that, and I responded to it. Here is a snip of what I actually said. I'm not the one telling people to go get their own client, thank you. I hope this was a mis-quote on your part, more than an attempt to suggest I said something that I did not.

Another thought that just occurred to me, isn't there different kinds/forms of PVP? You have open zone PVP, arena PVP, the old base-invasions, and I am not sure if legit dueling is a thing here. It might help clear the air if the people who speak both good or ill of PVP are clear on what kind of PVP they are on about.

First off, I am not a PVPr myself, but do support those who favor that gameplay. Not all of PVPr's are like that, in fact most are not. You are taking the extreme example and using that as a standard of what is average. Personally I have seen far worse here on the forums than any actions in-game by PVPr's. So by your standards, the point could be argued that we forum users are worse than either group. I would consider your attitude toward farmers, power levels, and other forms of gameplay you don't personably like as pretty aggressive. Context is important.

So, using my favorite play as an example. I started with 3 masterminds and 3 boxed them, with zero outside influence/mailed merits/etc. I have done story missions. As well as farming and AE. I have even gone GM and AV hunting. I would say that takes skill, is a risk, and a challenge. The challenge, risk, and skill is there. Just play a non-meta build with self imposed handicaps. Nothing stopping you from playing a Merc/FF MM from 1-50 entirely solo while performing the "iron man" challenge, that is, entirely 100% self found/crafted things only. You are certainly free to do that. The key difference here is while the option to do that sort of play already exists for you and everyone else, you want to "force" it onto everyone else. In truth the shutting down of live was more of a real world many-layered topic, far more to do with the real world economy much more than making your powers 20% more effective. And that particular issue is far too lengthy to give it its due credit here. But they can't. IOs simply made everyone more efficient or better, but it did not bridge the AT core features. Such as a Tankers/Brutes Taunting, A scrappers Crits, or a Stalkers stealth and commanded bonus damage, A blasters sheer offensive power, or a corruptors hybrid/personalized approach, and what have you. Many ATs can perform the same feats yes, but the "hows" vary greatly not only from class to class, but even among different primaries within those same classes. No IO or enhancement will suddenly give you a taunting aura. Or the ability to crit. Or the assisinate and domination powers, etc etc. You want more defined roles and less cross-hyrbrids, I get it. But that is going into the same design of other games such as "1 tanker, 1 healer, 3 DPS" which I think the majority of people do not want on all content. If you want that, you are certainly free to play with self imposed limitations. Gamers and Record setters do it all the time. But when you try to force that onto others, or try to display it as a better, superior, more "pure" form of the game, then you are going to have problems.

Or you know, go by live and let live? Let others enjoy what they like doing too? That's an option too?

Upsides: Drama. People to play with. Downsides: Drama. People you can't avoid.

And yet, somehow as if by magic, I can accomplish more by myself than with a team in some situations. I mean anyone with enough stealth can race to the end of most missions, take out the boss or click the glowy, and be in and out before a team finished the first few packs of mobs. Especially true in a multiboxing scenario. Ergo, Sandbox. And at this point you are arguing semantics.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me. I have said in other posts that I like the niches. Its good we have challenging content. I only take issue that some ATs aren't up to the task or are undesired. Please don't mistake that as a cry to nerf the hard modes. If I had it my way, the ATs that are struggling would be brought up to par, or were at least viable on the hardest difficulties. A tall request, I know, given we have an all-volunteer staff. But some of them stumble on plain +4/8 content as it is, let alone incarnate, ITFs and other activities. And I never stated farming was removed? I only pointed out that there were calls for its removal before on the forums. If I wasn't clear enough, then I ask your pardon. But I do hope that you agree that weaker ATs being looked at and updated would be a good thing, or do you think that 3 and 4 star hard modes should cater only to certain ATs?

Um, no. That isn't how that works. You see, if it was "specifically designed" to play with other people, then it would be mandatory, required, or the only option to advance. Obviously, it isn't. The fact that I can get everything you can on a team when entirely solo, proves your point invalid. There are team activities certainly, just as there are solo activities. More solo activities than there are team activities I might add. Tell me this, are there more "team required" things to do, or more things where "teaming is optional" things? And the point that someone can entirely solo the majority of those "team required" activities as well. You are using the "ye olde golden days" as stipulation to measure current play, and the game has gone through many, many changes since then, many of which you listed yourself. It doesn't matter what the game was, or used to be, because that isn't what it is now. This isn't live. This is Homecoming. It's a different ship, with a different crew, with a different voyage. Stop trying to make the game "ye olden bygone era." Because if we went by your metric, a great many things would be removed - ATs, Powersets, Missions, Content, etc. CoH is a "sandbox" game. Meaning you play as you like, do what you enjoy doing. This may or may not include teaming. And for a growing number of players, that is "not teaming," in part due to attitudes similar to yours - "MY way. No. No, you can't have fun. You aren't allowed to progress. You have to do it THIS way. I know they added options to do otherwise, but they were wrong!" all the while ignoring all the updates and changes made to change that. So stop using issue one as a sort of measuring stick to gauge the current game. That was over a decade ago. Almost two decades in fact. If the game was a living person, it would be old enough to vote now.

I wouldn't call that a good dynamic or something to reach for. And I multibox as well, and I think it would be much more difficult with 8 different MM players than 3 multiboxers. But Number Six said they were aware of it and that MM's in harder content are on the radar to get looked at, which is all many of us really wanted.

That is a fair point. I am only pointing out that the mechanics as the stand, really discourage some ATs over others which sort of goes against the entire rebalancing, class comparison, and so on. But you are right, people could kick you for not liking your costume if they wanted to. I am not saying that it is right or wrong, only that they can. Pretty much the only way to guaranteed to have a team to your liking is to lead one yourself.