Neiska

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Guess you didn't read the message hon, it was more of a "screw your memorial, our Nosferatu deserves his own castle" It was a compliment/joke. 😆

*Drops something in @Snarky's donation box*

Nemesis plot.

Don't forget Inf spent/budget. That matters as well. A 20m build is not going to be anywhere close to one that's 600m, no matter how skilled the player might be.

I do really appreciate all the time thought and effort that you put into this @Maelwys, and I agree with most of your points and overall presentation. But a few things do kind of stick out to my mind that usually remains un-addressed in any balance discussion. (But not for any part of us the posters, but mostly because they are questions that really can only be answered by the Dev's). 1. A side-by-side comparison of ATO's and Inherent really isn't complete. Some ATs have perks certainly, but often some ATs with what's considered the worst ATOs are often the best. Lets take Brutes for example - Brutes are still provide one of the best newbie-friendly ATs, and are easily capable of soloing +4/8 and most if not all power pairings, despite having objectively bad ATO's. 2. If they went and just changed the ATOs and didn't change anything else, I fear we might encounter another instance of over-correction like they did with tankers, or worse, over-nerfing things. Some things they might break entirely. 3. In order to properly "balance" things, then we have to know where the finish line is, or what their metric is for the finish line. A few subpoints here - 3a. I think we all agree that it isn't balancing on +4/8 difficulty. At a guess, I would presume they balance more around 2/8 or 3/8 because pretty much everyone can complete those even on a budget. (And to me any who couldn't, would be the spotlight for who/what needs improvement) But that is just me musing. I believe they put their "bar" below max difficulty, and balance on that. Anything that goes beyond that is ignored... up and until a certain point. Anything that goes too far past that gets, well, let's call it "laterally demoted." 3b. Also if they are balancing on solo vs team play. Things that are strong or very desirable for teams, may not be the best solo, and vice versa. The same could be said for killing lots of things quickly, vs killing the big things. Builds that are great at bursting lots of things down, are not the best at soloing AVs, GMs and so on. And the things that are the best at soloing the biggest of things, are not the best at killing quickly or even for team play. And to me, this is honestly a good thing. No one should be the best at everything or multiple things. So a good build is really about picking what you want to be really good at, and doing the best you can at everything else. 3c. Also some things that some people say are "strong" are only strong in certain contexts or situations. For me a good example is Crabbermind. They do fantastic, both alone and on teams. ....To a certain point. But if you like to solo hard difficulty alone, you are going to have a bumpy time. Not the worst mind you, others are far worse off, but soloing +4/8 EBs on my crabber was very tedious. After several (20+) different builds and attempts, I did finally make one that is decent at soloing that difficulty. But it really requires outside the box building for a VEAT. And so far she works quite well. Point is, I hope people take their "strong in what contexts" into account when saying X or Y thing is Good or Bad. 4. Honestly, if it was up to me, the first order of business wouldn't be balancing the AT side of things, it would be balancing the enemy side of things. Even on the hardest difficulty, I don't feel like most things hit very hard. The Alpha strikes can bruise sure, but after that, if I can survive the alpha strikes then 9 out of 10 times I know I got the fight in the bag, the only real question after that is how long it takes. But yea, IMO the hardest difficulty doesn't hit hard enough. Not talking Hardmodes or special mechanic fights mind you, I am talking just random +4/8 missions. The raids and such require knowledge and practice. If you know the fight you can pretty much do it with almost any team if everyone is just doing it correctly. 5. I hate to bring it up, but it's almost always brought up in some circles about balance - Pylons. Personally, I use pylon times as a ball-park figure or a rough idea, not something to bet the farm on. Some treat it like its unquestionable or selective in its controls/tests though. And while I am no big brain, at a guess I would say that Devs at least take pylon times into some consideration when they change damage stuff. Again, also not something I agree with personally, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did. It is free data after all. 6. And as others before have mentioned that I also agree with, I think what they balance things around the MOST is simple popularity. What is played the most? Thats what they change, for good or bad. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, but in this case the squeak is the most popular things being played. Think back to 5 years ago, what did we see quite literally everywhere? Titan Weapons/Bio of various ATs - Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers. Still see some now and then, but not nearly as many as there once were. Lots and lots of Spines/Fire too, but this was mostly due to the farmers. And after the changes, I have pretty much given up any hope of Spines ever being competitive in any manner, no matter how much I like the style and feel of the set. Don't hardly see any Spines or Fire Armor outside of farming while out and about doing random team stuff. Pretty much the only time I see it is in the AE. But yea, if something gets too popular or too overplayed, they are going to change it. Usually make it worse in some manner. As far as what's currently bottom? Well, I am not sure if they honestly care. Or at least, I very much doubt its in their top-10 todo list, much less a priority. Some things that are bottom have been on bottom for a very long time now, or are only bottom in certain circumstances, and that seems to be enough reason to leave it alone. Again, just me musing after seeing how they change things after 5 or so years of playing on HC. Anyway, just my two cents. Comparing ATOs and Inherent is a good start, but not the only things I would want everything to be balanced around. And before any re-balancing would have to be seriously done, we would have to know what the devs point of reference or "finish line" is.

I don't see as forcibly turning off or changing other people's powers to be a "Synergy." A synergy is a compromise. That isn't a compromise. Am open to suggestions, so long as they are entirely optional and at the players discretion. But as spoken by others already, if such an "option" even was suddenly available, it would then go suddenly from option straight to obligatory, such as the KB to KD option has become among some.

Except that both parties have options. Here are your options - 1. Don't agree to join a team with people with said powersets. 2. Don't invite people to join your team with said powersets. 3. If you see someone using said powersets, you are free to leave the team. 4. Ask them to stop, and if they do not, then tolerate it. 5. If you are the leader, you are free to eject people from the team. Here are their options - 1. Slot KB->KD enhancement. (I stress this is an option. Not a requirement.) 2. Decide not to use said powers, either by choice or when asked. 3. Ignore the complaints and continue to use said powers. Neither side is holding you at knifepoint forcing either side to play with one another. And instead of using your own options within the situation, you go for the nuclear option of "it needs to be removed entirely" rather than exercise what is within your own control. See, you have it within your own current ability, to remedy the situation. So do other people. And for all these examples of "bad" KB users, no one is stopping to think (or even notice) the polite folks who could but choose not to. So, I agree, let's be honest here. You are in no way forced to endure anything you don't wish to be. You can leave. But, instead of that, you would rather the devs take the heavy handed approach and simply remove that option for everyone entirely, rather than using your own options to remedy the situation yourself. Which to me, speaks that it isn't about knockback at all. I suspect its similar to the AE argument - that some people who choose not to use something (for whatever reason) wish to take the option away from other people who do. Which isn't about community at all, but control. IE - "I don't like or approve of this thing, so nobody should." And I don't mean "you" personally Solarverse. Speaking rhetorically here. And, if I may get philosophical for a moment, no matter what your reasoning or justification, I will never support taking options or choices away from people. To me, it's like Free Speech - I may not agree with what you have to say, but I agree with your right to say it. Even if it's something offensive, wrong, or mean-spirited. You still have the right to say it. (At least in my country, and I am in no way suggesting that KB is a right. Only drawing comparisons here.) People have the right to make their own choices and decisions. Even if you think they are wrong. Even if the world thinks they are wrong. People have a right to be wrong. It's how people learn - from other's wrongs. Take away that opportunity to become better, then we will never improve beyond where we are now.

Disagree. And no amount of "but my gameplay" or "it makes me so mad" or "team dynamics" is going to be the moral high ground. Still making a mountain out of a molehill here. Lots of things and playstyles "negatively impact" others, but there isn't a crusade to curtail any of them. If I am on a tanker and someone does KB, I shrug and move onto the next. If I am on my MM and someone does KB, I shrug and move onto the next. If I am on my Crabber and someone does KB, I shrug and move onto the next. Not once, in nearly 6 years of playing, has a KB been so ill fated, so ill timed, so game altering that it caused a mission to fail. Or a even a team wipe. The only time I remember people making a big fuss out of it, was on a mothership raid because someone had repel on in the bowl. That is literally the only time I have heard a public outcry in game about it. It is not nearly as life altering as people are making it out to be. Oh no, someone died? That happens. A lot. And rarely is it KB's problem. Oh no, a mission took a bit longer to complete? ...So what? Big deal. I would bet that more time was taken writing some of these responses here. Oh no, someone is playing outside the team dynamic? ...again, happens all the time. A lot. And often. Now, "should" people play together? Sure. And most of the time, they do. But you might think from how some people present it, this is reaching to present something people have a personal problem with as this supposedly critically important change that needs to be implemented immediately. "They need to do something!" - they already have. They offered a knockback to knockdown option. But that's what it is, an "option." If people are still using knockback, well, spoiler alert - they are within their right to do so. Just as you are within your right to play whatever you like as well. "But people can troll with it!" - again, many tools can be misused. Phasing/intangible, fold space, PFF to name a few. The power itself isn't the problem. People are just using it in ways that annoy others to the extent that they want the fun police to swoop in and force change. People already have options. The fact that not everyone is taking them, should be a clear indicator of something. That not everyone agrees with the idea "KB is bad." Now, you have options too. You can kick someone (if you are the leader), you can stamp your foot and refuse to heal or buff or hold aggro or whatever. But they have those same options too. And both have you have the option to... wait for it... ...simply not play together. And here is the real solution to my mind. Because not everyone is going to want to play in the same way, have the same goals, go the same speed, play at the same difficulty, etc etc etc. This whole KB is but one small part of a multi-sided puzzle. And people are making way too much of a fuss about it, when the solution is already within their own means - simply not team with powersets like Energy Blast. And if this is supposedly the massive widespread plague some are making it out to be, then I question if said persons are lazy when making their teams. You don't want to see knockback powers? Don't team with the powersets that have them. Take the 3 minutes to put some thought into your LFG message, and to check peoples powersets, and poof - you will never ever have to see them again. Like magic. But instead of taking the time to do that, people would rather have the devs wave their magic wand and remove or change all KB. The problem with that is that this "fix" for your personal experience, is now taking away from others. When its within your own ability to remedy the situation, without negatively impacting others. And you can apply this to most parts of the game. "Don't like something? Don't do it/use it/take part in it."

Speaking only for myself, honestly? It depends on how they ask. Not just about KB, but about anything. If they politely "ask" (not demand, but ask) I am inclined to co-operate as long as they aren't causing problems on for me on my side. But if they are being just as annoying, like spamming chat, taking forever to talk to the contact for next mission, constantly running ahead and then griping when they splat and so on, I am far more likely to tell them to kiss me where the lord split me. To me thats just being polite. But, as seen as examples in this very thread, there is very much an attitude of "PLAY MY WAY OR GTFO" mentality, which I would argue is a far larger pressing matter than knockback. I go by "know the pool you choose to swim in." If you choose to put together a team of random people, that's what you get. Key word "random." Some are good. Some are bad. Some are experienced. Some are just learning. Some just plain don't care and want to flex their pixels or speed to the end as fast as possible. If you want a team or TF to go exactly how you want it, to specifications, as fast as possible, mastery badge runs, yadda yadda yadda, then maybe you need to build a team of friends for it. You are rolling the dice when you want to play at that level with random people. "Most" know what they are doing, some will not. And I would call that the normal state of things. And when I say "you" I don't mean you personally, I am speaking rhetorically here. But if someone is a controlling fun police jerk who is in a rush, well, that sounds very suspiciously like not my problem, and depending on their manners, I might be inclined to use the situation in a creative manner.

I don't disagree. Both are free to play as they like. Neither one gets to control the other, which is my entire point. Want to heal or not heal? Go right ahead. Want to KB everything into the sun? Go ahead. Neither is incorrect, wrong, or disallowed. Nobody is forcing anyone to play with anyone either. Don't like who you are teamed with? Make your own team, with your own goals and rules. Thats how we get some pretty awesome things like all tanker or all MM TFs and so on. But as far as "cooperation" goes, that is a two-way street as well. Demanding/expecting someone with KB to not use KB when it wasn't advertised they wouldn't be welcome when joining the team isn't "cooperation." If someone is so passionate about KB, then they should make it known when forming the team. And if someone (either one, the KB or the one complaining about that) leaves mid-mission because of that, I couldn't blame them either. Now, if the team was put together knowing beforehand KB was frowned upon, and then someone was doing it anyway, then ya they are a jerk. But call it a suspicion that isn't the case here.

Sure, and its your right to do so. Just as its their right to blow the next one away as well. A mature group would communicate, you know, just say "hey can you please stop KB so much?" like most adults. Not just presume they are being malicious about it. (I do want to add, i am pretty sure you fall into the normal adult category.) But so many here want to light their torches and grab their pitchforks for people just using powers as they are meant to. "You play MY way. Or ELSE" energy.

I thought some armor sets for scrappers did, like shield or bio? Even if its a weak taunt it's still a taunt right? Should keep some things from running? Never tried such a thing on a scrapper myself, am asking in earnest.

See, here's the thing.... ...They aren't "your" mobs, anymore than anyone else's. They aren't "yours" even if you CC'd them. Hard for some to understand, I know. And.. I'm fairly certain that posing as another person of the community isn't allowed. So I'll go ahead and report that. And can't say I'm surprised someone entirely focused on themselves would suggest such a thing.

I agree. 😁

Sure. It's annoying. 100% agree on that. But why does only "their" enjoyment count? Let's say someone uses KB as a form of mitigation during solo play and builds around that. Like an Energy Blast/FF or whatever. They don't get a say either? That's what concerns me more than the KB issue itself. IMO it ultimately comes down to the team leader, as it usually does with a great many things. Want to boss people around? Be the leader then you can dictate to others how you please. But with that you don't get to bombard the leader whining because someone is using their powers AS INTENDED. Unless the leader who put together the team expressly said "no knockback powers please" then everyone else agreed to "no restrictions" when they teamed up. And not once, not a single solitary time, have I ever seen a "no kb powers" stated when signing up for an activity. Any activity. If you joined a team, without any stated restrictions, and someone is blasting away, well spoiler alert - they are as welcome there as you are. You don't like it? You are free to leave and make your own team with whatever rules or stipulations you like. If you make your own team, you get to decide who stays and who doesn't. But let's not pretend that people are in LFG going "ITF looking for 3 people. No knockback powers please." and people are using them anyway. If people are really so passionate at knockback, they can advertise it as such. And until I see that happening, this whole whining about an issue that's old enough to vote or buy alcohol is an eye-roll to me.

Two questions. 1. Does this also apply to, oh, I duno, people who don't follow the brute or tank and just run off by themselves, aggro other groups, go splat, and then also get other team mates splatted? Is that "working with the team" too, or would we get tools to control them as well? 2. Who exactly gets to decide what's "with" the team. Lets play hypothetical - Lets say a team is one scrapper and 7 corruptors. One corruptor has knockback. And is keeping things nice and far from everyone else but the scrapper. What then? Is that "with" the team? Here's my hot take - it's REALLY not that big of a deal. Lets do another hypothetical - You are winding up, about to let fly with both barrels. You pop that red. You use your Aim. You get that Buildup proc. The stars align! Boy oh boy, this is gonna be ssooo ggoodd! Yes yes yes...! .....oh no! NO! Along comes this guy who just blows stuff out of your meticulously timed Nuke! THE SKY IS FALLING! ITS THE END OF DAYS! MAN OVERBOARD! WOMEN AND CHILDREN FIRST! SAVE YOURSELVES! THE DEVS HAVE FORESAKEN US! WHAT HAVE WE EVER DONE TO DESERV--- I think we get the drift. What's the actual situation? A mission might take at best, a couple minutes more. And people are up here making that out to be some kind of Greek Tragedy when it's really not. Annoying? Sure. Irritating? Certainly. But by the sheer volume of noise some in the community are making about this is honestly embarrassing. And personally, I find those sorts of people more difficult to play with than 99% of knockback users. I can count on one hand, ONE, the number of knockback "abusers" I have encountered in 5 years. But the number of fun/how to play police? Let's not go down that road, at least in this topic. TLDR - Get a grip. Having to wait a minute or two to use a nuke again, having a mission take a few minutes longer, or having your big satisfying spam if nice big numbers ruined really, and I mean really, not that big of a deal.

I would support this but only on 2 conditions - 1. That everyone also gets a toggle that would make everyone's power also suddenly knockback. Everyone. Every power. Yes, even Toy Bat and Beanbag. 2. Null the Gull could make everyone immune to both toggles. And yes, I realize both of these would make the toggle off pointless. Which is of course, the entire point. And not because of knockback. But the very microsecond that you give a player a way to control another player's power, it will be abused. Constantly. Giving one player control over another has no upside. There is no "win" in that situation for anyone. PS - Thought of a #3. 3. It has to be named the Karen Toggle. Because some people just can't leave well enough alone and feel entitled to control other people where they have neither the authority nor business to do so.

A crazy thought but... has anyone considered that other people playing things you may not like, powersets you don't like, or sets in ways you don't like is a part of the game?

"My very limited personal experience serves as such evidence as to be irrefutable and undeniable and is thus beyond contest."

I have seen both good and bad KB players. Good ones use it strategically, pushing the big threats off squishies, pushing things into corners, pushing things into aoe and so on. Being able to move an enemy can be a fantastic tool if used right. I think the best use was during a team, it was almost a full wipe, down to just me the Robo MM and the (I think he was a) Defender. The Tank went one way, the squishy DPS went another, both aggroed their own packs and both faceplanted. Then aaalll the mobs from both packs came running right to me and the Defender. I thought I was about to follow shortly after, but the Defender just swooped right beside me and toggled his Repelling Aura on. Stuff was running at us, but it just bounced off. And I was able to heal the ranged attacks that did get through. Honestly it was kind of shooting fish in a barrel for my robos. It took a little bit, but the defender and I took out what splattered our tank and blaster which was a pretty awesome moment. I didn't even know the defender had that, he hadn't used it until that moment. When it was over he just toggled it off and we pressed on. Bad ones just spam it and hit spawns of enemies like a bowling ball, scattering things all over, often away from the Tank/Brute and melee dps, or pushing things out of AoEs and so on, often being as much a hinderance as much as a help. I have been tinkering with a robo/ff build myself. I have only dabbled with one before, never had one at 50 or fully kited out before. It will likely be my next project. Personally when I have knockback powers, I try to have a bit of awareness. Just because I "can" blow a mob across the room doesn't mean I "should," and often enough saving it for a few moments proved to be a very nice counter to something a mob was going to do. Anyway, back to Knockback - like many other tools, it depends on the user. I have seen good and bad tankers. Good and bad Controllers. Good and bad Corruptors and so on. If you are just zooming around blasting things than yea, I can see it upsetting people. But even that style of play has its place, either on speed teams where people just rushing to finish as fast as possible, or an all ranged team which I do see time to time. PS - I do kind of wish we had a reverse knockback powerset or ability, the only one being fold space. But a support or ranged set with some "get over here" abilities might actually be quite awesome to see.

I don't think it really benefits melee over ranged, as they can still benefit from the damage boosts and the tide pool, barrier, etc. Enemies are just automatically slowed when they run in, so you can play it at range if you wanted to. Sometimes if I am just mowing them down, I will Whitecap into the group and the robots will just all follow, and when they snap to defend me when attacked they are already in close range. Thats when I drop tidepool and yada yada. I think it benefits both really. Which is a good thing. Combat options are always nice to have, you can play this one at a distance or close up. The set doesn't really like Group Fly though as all the important powers seem to be ground-focused, which you can't really make use of when flying about.

Fun Fact I just learned about robots myself - Clarion Radial Destiny ALSO boots the protector bot bubbles, for its entire duration. To use it, you just pop Clarion, then click off the buff, and the t2 will bubble you again immediately with the boosted effect. Something around 25% all DEF in total. Which honestly is a fantastic boost for robos with secondaries that don't have +DEF.

Robots/Traps is definitely a big game build, and Marine is certainly a powerhouse. I just made one, but she's only 44 at the moment but man she's defiantly my strongest pre-incarnate MM so far to date. I think a Robot/Marine "might" be able to take down big stuff, but you would have to use personal attacks for -regen. IMO /Marines weakness is lack of any CC or Debuff protection. Top Shelf everything else though. But I have also heard that of all things, /Nature is capable of taking down bit things too. I mean it does have -dam, -res, and -regen in it and certainly has +damage and plenty of sustain. I've never done it with /Nature though, I have only just started playing /Nature myself. So far she's only 30 as a Necro/Nature but so far she's solid. I don't know what /Nature build could, I imagine maybe Robo/Nature as it would have plenty of -regen, damage, and healing? But I read chatter in the Masterminds Discord that Demons/Marine is ridiculous ST damage, it might not even need -regen at all? No idea on that one though, that's just me musing. The only kiss-your-elbow MM build I know for certain can take down the biggest things is robo/traps.