Galaxy Brain

Haha I feel that all too well with my work! But in this instance, I would reckon that given IOs were around before even the RWZ or Ouroboros that any say of "oh theyre too new" flies right out the window given everyone can adapt to those and much more.

So this right here is something I pointed out many pages ago: THE MAJORITY OF THE LIVE GAME HAD IO'S! I get that they were not in issue 0, but to call them "new" is just disingenuous. IO's are older than: (In roughly the correct order) The revamp of the RWZ Ouroboros Weapon Customization Dual Blades Willpower The Midnight Squad / Cimerora VEATs Hollows Revamp Revamp of the power trays Multiple Builds Day Jobs Shield Defense Pain Domination Merit Rewards Architect Entertainment The 5th column returning (along with the Barracuda and Dr Kahn task forces) Dominators getting redesigned Footsteps changing sound depending on what you walk on Cosmetic Surgeons Character Creator revamp Customizable Powers Difficulty Options revamp Pets zoning with their owners Super Sidekicking Ultra Mode Graphics Going Rogue (and the Alignment System) Dual Pistols Demon Summoning Electric Control Kinetic Melee New Posi TF's Showing the last objective on the map Old contacts getting cell phones Vigilance granting you a damage buff Tip Missions Combat mode auras Trading and Emailing between alignments Villain AT's getting Epic Power Pools Merged Transit systems Hospitals being in all zones The Incarnate System The ability to log out to the character select screen Weekly Strike Targets Incarnate Trials Sutter/Mortimer Kal task Forces Leagues and the LFG tab, and the adjustment of tons of AoE buffs to hit tons of targets Team Teleporter First Ward Death from Below Circle of Thorns facelift Ancillary Power Pools unlocking at 35 instead of 41 The ability to change your costume at trainers New Dark Astoria Drowning in Blood Trial Darkness Control Darkness Affinity Dark Assault Impact! On Gravity Control Night Ward Signature Story Arcs TUNNEL All the P2W (Temp) Powers Titan Weapons Water Blast Nature Affinity Beam Rifle Staff Fighting Street Justice Beast Mastery Time Manipulation Ninja/Beast Run About a jillion emotes and costume parts + many many more I missed! ++ every update included updates to IO's! If IO's are "optional and not to be balanced around" because they were not in the OG game, then none of these are either. This is not to call you out specifically @Yomo Kimyata, but the reality is that IO's have been a thing in CoH for far longer than they haven't, and to ignore them for not being in the "base game" I feel is just silly. Telecom is funky for sure, they usually just update the phones themselves but the infrastructure.... lol.

Something I saw mentioned by @Greycatin @Troos thread again, that was brought up here is the notion of "IOs are optional". What exactly makes them optional? By that token, is it a stretch to call enhancements optional in general since the game doesn't force you to slot them?

Set bonuses! Tons of sets have a 4 slot Acc bonus, adds up fast. Oh, also Tactics was toggled on lol This particular one has a ~5s recharge without slotting for it in the power, doubles as huge damage + a hold that can Dominate, but it does cost a chunk of end to throw out. Luckily, other powers help with that such as Domination reliably filling endurance, recovery procs, and general set bonuses making up for the non-slotted stats. Set bonuses come first, but they don't exist in a vacuum either. Set bonuses feed into the ability to proc. All procs are not equal TBF, a -Res in an AoE that also benefits from the -Res (due to DoT, etc) or a +Crit proc are usually much better because they impact multiple powers and not just the one it's slotted in. To the first point though, its also not in a vacuum that the proc bombs exist. In my Earth Assault example I pair that with Elec Control in order to mitigate endurance woes and even safety to a degree, for Cold Domination the rest of the set is stellar, has spots to place LotG and Infrigidate benefits as a proc bomb from recharge much like the bigger AoE debuffs the set has, making it even more valuable as part of the package. Perhaps, but tbh I would prefer if Procs actually got buffed sideways. What I mean by that is like, say procs got way gnarlier in power much like how -Res or +Rech procs and the like can totally change your build, but you then had a limit of 2~3 per a single power. That's Assault brotha!

Talking about what they "could have done / had the chance to do" goes nowhere since we could as easily say they had the chance to buff procs to absurd levels, but didn't. Anyways, the issue isn't *exactly* PPM, so much as it is what can slot procs. Like, look at this: This power can literally slot 6 procs and then through outside bonuses still have decent stats: If we slotted it "normal", well... Of course a mix of Damage AND procs by itself gets you more output on average, but not much better Like +8 damage vs +120 damage with all procs vs "normal". Going one more with 4 procs / 2 dam: Even better output! This is on Seismic Smash, one of the hardest hitting Melee Attacks out there on a Dominator, which has the 2nd highest Melee Damage mod of any AT.... and it is strictly better when you proc it out on average. This is not an issue of Low damage AT's vs High Damage.... I think it's just an issue with the ability to "Proc Bomb". Lets take a look at another attack, or rather pair of them. These two Scrapper attacks are roughly identical, but one has far more slotting (and Proccing) options than the other. In a much more meta sense, you can slot these roughly the same with 4 procs + 2 Normals, but Disembowel has access to far more exotic options (-Res, another Neg Damage proc over S/L, etc) which can add far more oomph. And of course the odd powers which can become actual attacks despite not dealing damage (on top of all the other bonuses they have): When you compare this to other support sets... well, they don't usually come with a decent ST attack + Debuff rolled in one. Most powers are not able to do this, but there are a portion that can slot many exotic and powerful procs all at once, and I think *that* is the key difference in balance.

I had originally thought of this on a Blaster, but Elec Blast is just better on a Sent. Eyeballing the two powers tho, it seems DPA-wise at least the way I slotted them are at least decent to where they could be outside of proccing the heck out of Tesla Cage!

So, something I noticed is that the Power Transfer IO can be used on Elec blast attacks. Neat! But then, I also saw that Entropic Chaos can be used on the ST attacks as well, and thus a gimmick was born... Going off the mids numbers, and by playing around on the Beta server, these values are roughly accurate: Lightning Bolt: 48% chance to heal 5% HP x 2 (73% chance to be healed regardless of both happening at once) Zapping Bolt: 55% chance to heal 5% HP x2 (80% chance to be healed) Tesla Cage: 71% chance to heal 5% HP x2 (93% chance to be healed) The picture below says it all: So, that was the core of the build, but it needed some back up. With a large chunk of the slotting going to self-heals, I needed a way to up my damage and /Bio's offensive mode fits the bill perfectly. Alongside even more healing from the Bio clicks for theme, and Mass Hypnosis with the Sandman proc as a cherry on top, it ends up being a hilarious mish mash of super-sustains when you pair it with Elec's ability to return end as well! This is by no means a super-uber build, but something I just whipped up for the lols and ended up being a real blast. This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7 https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn Click this DataLink to open the build! Electric Dynamo: Level 50 Magic Sentinel Primary Power Set: Electrical Blast Secondary Power Set: Bio Armor Power Pool: Leaping Power Pool: Flight Power Pool: Speed Ancillary Pool: Psionic Mastery Hero Profile: Level 1: Charged Bolts -- SntWar-Acc/Dmg(A), SntWar-Dmg/Rchg(3), SntWar-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), SntWar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), SntWar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SntWar-Rchg/+Absord(7) Level 1: Hardened Carapace -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(36), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(37), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(39) Level 2: Lightning Bolt -- PwrTrns-+Heal(A), EntChs-Heal%(7), GldJvl-Dam%(9), Thn-Acc/Dmg(9), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(11) Level 4: Ball Lightning -- OppStr-Rchg/+Opportunity(A), OppStr-Acc/Dmg(23), OppStr-Dmg/Rchg(23), OppStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), OppStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), OppStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27) Level 6: Zapping Bolt -- PwrTrns-+Heal(A), EntChs-Heal%(13), GldJvl-Dam%(13), Thn-Acc/Dmg(15), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(15), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17) Level 8: Aim -- RechRdx-I(A), GssSynFr--Build%(43) Level 10: Inexhaustible -- PrfShf-End%(A), PwrTrns-+Heal(39) Level 12: Tesla Cage -- PwrTrns-+Heal(A), EntChs-Heal%(17), GldJvl-Dam%(19), Thn-Acc/Dmg(19), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(21), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(21) Level 14: Environmental Adaptation -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(37) Level 16: Adaptation Level 18: Super Jump -- WntGif-ResSlow(A) Level 20: Ablative Carapace -- Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Pnc-Heal(40), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(40), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(40), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(43) Level 22: Rebuild DNA -- Prv-Absorb%(A), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(36), Prv-Heal(36), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(37), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(42), Prv-Heal/Rchg(42) Level 24: Hover -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A) Level 26: Short Circuit -- FuroftheG-ResDeb%(A), PwrTrns-Dam/Acc/Rech/End(27), PwrTrns-EndMod(29), PwrTrns-Dam/Rech(29), PwrTrns-Dam/EndMod(31), PwrTrns-Dam/Acc/End(31) Level 28: Athletic Regulation -- Run-I(A) Level 30: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-ResDam%(31), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(34) Level 32: Thunderous Blast -- PstBls-Dam%(A), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(33), PstBls-Dmg/Rchg(33), PstBls-Acc/Dmg(33), PstBls-Dmg/Rng(34), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34) Level 35: Genomic Evolution -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), Ags-Psi/Status(45), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(46) Level 38: Parasitic Leech -- Pnc-Heal(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(42), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(43), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(46), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(46) Level 41: Mind Probe -- TchofDth-Dam%(A), Mk'Bit-Dam%(48), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg(48), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50), Mk'Bit-Dmg/EndRdx(50) Level 44: Mass Hypnosis -- CaloftheS-Heal%(A) Level 47: Link Minds -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(48) Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50) Level 1: Opportunity Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A) Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A) Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A) Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A) Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A) Level 2: Health -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A), Pnc-Heal/+End(39), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(45) Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(45) Level 16: Defensive Adaptation Level 16: Efficient Adaptation Level 16: Offensive Adaptation ------------

I think ATO's may be a good starting point still for the general IO discussion, as I feel they have the strongest impact on some AT's (Scrappers/Stalkers) and not so much on others. Would *more* ATO options possibly be good?

Real talk tho @Bill Z Bubba and @Infinitum, we should make a separate thread for this as a comparison set to set could yield very interesting results. But, it is kind of side stepping the main point of the thread! (However, the added survivability a Brute can get via IO's compared to a Tanker's ability to add offense via procs/bonuses is something to consider...)

as mentioned in that thread, that was a comparison of EM/Shield between the two. The Brute did clear faster but not ~equal~ to the gap between that and the supposed mitigation the tank had. A different pri/sec combo could yield different results though.

@Bill Z Bubba, think you could try it again with a different Pri/Sec combo? By nature certain ones may lean toward one or the other.

The Brute vs Tank talk I think could be separated into it's own thread.

True, but if the notion is "this is all optional" is true, then the current inf sinks aren't too enforced...

I was actually referring to sets originally, but like "normie" ones. For example, you could defeat a Boss and there is a 25% chance that their enhancement drop might be Bonesnap: Dam/Acc Specific IO's like Miracle: +Recovery may still be locked as recipe drops, but "common" ones or non-special IO's I feel could drop.

Lol pretty much thats why they're punching bags. They *can* kill you at basic levels and if you have little mitigation from attacks or whatnot, but as you build up its more of an offense test Edit: If you pull logs from a tab that only tracks "Damage received", it could be a good measure of mitigation between the two as well.

Sort of, I think it's multi-faceted: 1) As you mentioned, should the game consider IO's when it comes to *overall* balance with the assumption that your average character is stronger than "Pure SO Level"? This one is super ambiguous as until we get actual data on "X% of the HC playerbase is for-sure using IO's" it's super tricky to discuss it like this. Either we need hard evidence that "yeah, everyone is doing it" or make it far more accessible to where it'd be expected to slot IOs like SO's. 2) Related to the last bit above, is the way you can attain IO's balanced? In HC in particular, as @Luminara stated you can get inf incredibly easily and the only thing in your way is the market (and sometimes crafting). Other games have unique loot drop of special sources, or as a reward from special missions. Is the random drops a sort of legacy of the past that encourages farming? If Story Arcs rewarded you with IO rolls / merits were more common for certain actions would the gameplay shift in both ways (access of IO's / content run?) 3) Are sets balanced around what IO's can be slotted? To a degree this exists a little bit when you look at things like say.... Fire Blast vs other blast sets. It blows the rest away at the base level, but it has no unique chances to slot fun IO's which can let others level the playing field. On the flip side, sets with -Def or Knockback get TONS of game-changing slotting options that others simply do not get which is intriguing to say the least. Let alone looking at ATO's and their vast differences in performance. You see this also pop up with +Defense powers for a particular IO and it's near universally good effect. 4) More insular, but are IO's balanced against each other? Are they interesting? As @akumamishima and @twozerofoxtrotput it, many just turn you into a ball of stats (and we all know the main ones everyone shoots for), but there are a few really fun ones which are unique. Tbqh, most of the "good" sets do get chopped up for certain perks and it seems to actually decrease diversity instead of increase as it was probably intended. Disregarding even the builds you always see that just have "slap purples in there and you're groovy", you very often see the same handfuls of sets appear over and over, making you really wonder what the point of sets like Bonesnap / Triage / Serendipity / Etc are when they are simply outclassed by better IOs or sets with uniques to them that can be very easily attained in HC? Would altering the least popular IO sets to have more unique options or stat boosts be a worthwhile endeavor? Bonesnap: Chance of double-hit (Unique), Triage: Chance of PBAoE Heal (Unique), Serendipity: provides huge boosts to sustain in it's set bonuses, etc. These all weave into each other in various degrees, but I think this is more where the convo could be headed than just "should the ~game~ be balanced around it?"

Back on topic though, lets pose a more specific question: Task forces are usually run to grab lots of merits, to which my guess is often used on ATO's. How do we feel the game has changed with just those in play?

My go-to is the Office Mission simulator on Beta. My plan here is to make an identical Fire/Rad Tank and Rad/Fire Brute and see if they can buzzsaw through that map on x8 at equal or greater speeds.

Brute vs Tank is a little derailing, but tbh I think it's much healthier that there's even a debate now compared to "lol why make a Tank?" I think this may call for a trip to the mission sim tho

Side note from the convo, but the EAT's in particular are generally a "One and Done" AT, so it makes sense for them. You can make 2309847234 blasters, but at best 4 VEAT's. Next lowest, Stalkers, not only hide from census data but are a very particular AT with a bad stigma. They're actually pretty dang amazing but at the same time their focused playstyle homogenizes some of their sets, making them feel similar Stalker to Stalker, which could be an inherent reason why there are less. Dominators are hard to get a handle on in terms of how to tackle / build one, so I can see that as a turn off for many. Corruptors/Defenders are kinda tied, tho I'm not sure why they're lower. Maybe less people like playing support? Sentinels are in the mix here too as theyre newer... and well, don't do as much damage as some may expect. From there we have Tanks which have recently been buffed, and then the damage piles in with most AT's here except controllers, which I think may have a particular combo or two that are super popular + lend themselves more to support.

This here is the main thing. Removing the bar does nothing to current perma dom, but opens up anything below perma dom to scale up to that level

....honestly, is there a point to the Domination bar? Permadoms build it once per play session (usually) and may never pay much attention to it again. People who choose not to Permadom are not using Domination as much so the gaps between Dominations are whatever. To me, it seems that if the bar and Domination itself were decoupled it'd just be a net benefit for everyone where you don't have to hit a *specific* magic recharge for Domination to click as it'd recharge like a normal power and thus have a curve rather than a cliff. If the bar has to stay, maybe attach some passive Mez Prot/Res as the bar grows alongside an End Redux buff? As you "Dominate" the battlefield you get in the groove and are much harder to slow down.

I gotcha, that makes sense! Thanks for the link too, I must have missed that going through the thread!

I'm referring to looking up NPC powers similar to how this is organized: Right now, I can search for enemy groups, which can bring up a category: > Which based on there being a page seems like there is a directory where they can be listed out?

Indeed, though from my point of view we already have the god-tier of that with Fire Farms if you are looking for pure Input for Output ratio. Everything else is below that by just about every metric aside from you know.... actually playing the game. As long as those farms exist, I'm kind of in the camp of "everything else is fair".