Galaxy Brain

A few classics: Dark/Shield Elec/Shield Demon/Elec MM

TBF, MM's did get Bodyguard in the very first CoV patch (Issue 7 on 6/6/06 hehe), though yeah they were live for a solid half a year or so without it.... but for most all the game they did have it. That said, even without Bodygaurd the ability to spread aggro among targets that are not you (a lot of the boss pets have big AoEs that draw aggro) and support them directly / just resummon them in a pinch does present some fundamental issues if you could freely share insps x7.

Not to bring up (Other Dimensions), but I think there is a (dimension) where DB was altered to be like StJ in that you just build up combos into Finishers.... any thoughts on that?

Agreed! We should not be balancing around the tippity top, multi-hundred-million, fully t4 incarnate folks. Those in particular are fewer and far between to affect the overall gameplay experience (and maybe something like revamping the Shadow Shard could give them a playground). The highlight is what I was originally going at in the OP. It's one thing to consider the game when it was LIVE and you could argue that folks who really used the IO system were a very small minority overall given the large population of new players / much more casual players / the barriers to getting IO's being much harsher. For HC though, I would wager the vast majority of players are CoH veterans who know the game already when jumping in. For new players who get brought in, odds are they are told by a veteran and they have a mentor ready and available to show them the ropes. If not, they usually find out via Facebook, Reddit, or Discord. Casually glancing at the CoH FB pages (City of Heroes and Save City of Heroes being the biggest iirc), there is plenty of mention of build talk, power stats, etc between the memes. Even more so on reddit with threads about IO / Incarnates popping up daily, and don't even start on Discord 😛. So not only is there a very big portion of players in HC who know the game well, but for everyone else there are more resources than ever (including the forums!) to learn up on it outside the game, which is super commonplace in today's age. So in my opinion, its not so much catering to the tip-top edge of the meta, but looking at the real "average" meta. If tons of people are in fact using IO's, lets say the majority of PLAYERS (not just characters) do use the IO system, I think it would be worth looking into the balance of IO's when it comes to IO Set design / unique perks, how they drop, how they get crafted, and so on. I think this is where we differ Rep, as I think that *some* IO's are for sure high-end gear (Purples/Winters for sure, maybe some of the "better" IO's), but with them dropping regularly through recipes the yellow sets / a good chunk of orange sets / ATO's even with merits as the "main" way to get them I'd argue are leaning much more towards "Standard Gear". DO's / SO's / Even generic IO's = Basic Gear, especially with the recent changes where SO's kind of permeate ALL levels, these are the default gear in the game. Your standard Dagger of Rat killing equivalent in other games. Generic IO's you could even say are your special +1 Daggers of Rat killing as they are still just the "basics". Games are usually balanced to where you can get by with basic gear for sure, as long as it's your level, but there are certainly parts of the game where it may not be optimal. Games should certainly be beatable with the bare basic equipment, but you might have a frustrating time. Yellow / Orange IO's / (Maybe even ATO's) = Standard Gear, the equivalent of your "Elegant Assassins' Dagger". In other games, you start finding better gear that usually has some sort of perk or the like that makes it more valuable than your basic equipment, most games sort of expect you to use this stuff throughout the game since it'll drop regularly and you equip it as you go. These daggers might have a higher crit chance, steal a little HP when you defeat an enemy, etc on some occasions. The games with gear like this are usually balanced to a degree around the player getting mostly or all this level of gear at some point since it gives it to you so often via drops / chests / stores / etc. Purple/Winter/Superior IO's = Legendary Gear, the "Lightning Dagger of Zeus" equivalent where it is expected that this gear needs extreme effort or luck to obtain, and the game is likely NOT explicitly balanced around it. These are often end of a quest line special items, rare drops from a boss, need special collectibles turned in to achieve it, or even just Pay to Win DLC, but the common theme here is that these items are often far above what the intended challenge level is if you are to use them. They are their own reward for acquiring them and being able to roflstomp content, though there may be end game encounters where even they are expected to be the balancing point. That tangent aside, in CoH I lean heavily on the vast majority of IO's falling into "Standard Gear" as far and away they are NOT end game / high end stuff: This is after like 3 missions on my lvl 16 mastermind solo. Granted, I can't use most of these but I got plenty of crafting material + 3 yellow / 1 orange recipes just by playing around. The only barrier here would be time and possibly a little money at this particular level, but if say Yellow IO's became actual drops.....? The things that really stand out to me with all this is the above where you can start getting recipes and materials VERY early on just through normal gameplay, though with the caveat that you do need to make them which is a time sink. Later on this is not that big a deal as you get more income and can just buy them outright, and to your point of them being high-end you do not really feel their full effects until you get enough slots to get a lot of bonuses. The resources available for players of all levels are much more accessible and even promoted, with /AH being an active command on HC I would think there is an expectation it should be used and prices on it are more affordable than ever, even if you're just running a few radios each week. In my view, its almost as if the only barrier is that you do not get (Yellow) IO's like normal drops in other games where you can just slot them immediately, but otherwise they are just about as accessible as that for anyone who is curious about them. That of course then branches into the Io to IO balance, what powersets can use what, and by a decent extension the content in the game on average where "Easy" encounters are just as if not more valuable than "Challenging" ones either through just raw kill speed/same rewards, or by some of the more challenging mobs being challening through FRUSTRATION (aka BS mechanics) and not so much actually challenging you.

I get that line of thinking, but the last bit is untrue when Brutes and Scrappers exist.

That specifically gets squirrely as it is rewarding purposefully bad play. The game does expect you to enhance yourself in some manner to where your powers are better than the base level. What we see now though is you're able to go WAY past the base level and the game likewise has not caught up for the most part.

I think a big part of it is that in general, Self-Gimping is less fun than tackling a challenge. What is more rewarding? Beating something you know you could win with one hand tied behind your back, or taking down something that you know you had a good chance of failing at even when going all out?

Something I just thought of, but what about simply letting Sentinels stack their debuff up to 5 times even when solo? The 5-time rule applies only to multiple sentinels at the moment, but you'll only ever see it with 5 Sentinels (lol). Changing it to just globally stack 5 times would help if you're the only sentinel or if there are less than 5 on a team and be a nice, subtle change that makes it like you're slowly opening up the enemy.

Something I just thought of, but what about simply letting Sentinels stack their debuff up to 5 times even when solo? The 5-time rule applies only to multiple sentinels at the moment, but you'll only ever see it with 5 Sentinels (lol). Changing it to just globally stack 5 times would help if you're the only sentinel or if there are less than 5 on a team and be a nice, subtle change that makes it like you're slowly opening up the enemy.

Side note, but do level shifts apply / make things weird? Like does a Lvl 54(+1) enemy just delete itself? Specifically their unique IO's are kind of odd. They get to use an immob proc (mag 2, so it only effects minions unless stacked and they get deleted anyways...tho a Stun+Immob does make for a funny psuedo-hold), Knockback (can of worms there), and a -7.5% ToHit debuff from the purple. The purple set at least will give you great Rech and Stun enhancement, and the sort of standard set bonuses you get from purples, but honestly the -Tohit is kind of weird in practice. It lasts about ~8 seconds when it fires, which about lines up with the lower end duration of your average stun power. Even an attack with the side-effect of a stun like Lancer Shot has nearly a 10s base stun duration, which means that the stun would outlast the -Tohit on most enemies... making the debuff worthless as they are not attacking you anyways once stunned! It's nice on bosses for sure, but if you manage to CC them shortly after, the stun applying -Tohit isn't that special. Compare that to something like -Def sets which get both -Def and Accurate -Def, and the plethora of options between Damage, -Resist, and Self-Buffing which are more universally applicable and are not negated by their own effect outlasting the debuff and washing out what the debuff accomplishes. The new End/Dam sets show that this is not an "intended" thing. Given there are number of damaging powers that can stun, opening up that avenue would be nice just as it was with End Mod. Lancer Shot Psychic Wail Cosmic Burst Taser All energy melee variants Thunder Strike Eagle's Claw and other MA powers Psychic Shockwave Various powers in Kinetic Melee Super Strength powers Etc There are lots more examples, but you get the gist. Even going with Seismic Smash as I did earlier, that attack gets a ton more options because it has a Hold component instead of a Stun. it's not even going for a FotM build, but like I said above the unique stun IO's that are like the cherries on top of stun sets are just lackluster compared to other mez sets, or most other sets in general which makes them not as fun IMHO. Tbh that first part would be cool as hell, and was part of the original-original design docs if I recall. Something like where they wanted to make things like "This enhancement adds fire DoT to your attacks" was in the early planning stages but never made it in / was converted into powers like Fiery Embrace, until the IO system came to be. Again though, its not the same exact *options* its the same amount of options, you dig? Lets say Holds get 5 really cool slotting options that are all viable, I would think it fair for Stuns (another major power group) to also have around 5 or so really cool options that are both effective and fun. But there are a bunch of procs in game: As well as requirements for X amount of critters to scale: Those things have always been in CoH, I'm not sure what you're getting at? Anywho, if I do read it right what I meant by that was the downsides you mentioned earlier could be applied universally. Life drain always works on hit, but there is always a 1/20 chance it simply never hits. Same with a proc-bomb simply missing despite having tons of Acc and Rech / whatever from bonuses. So this one is on me, but while I did show that purples are within reach, they are still rather costly compared to normal IO's and are significantly more powerful in each metric. Separating them I feel is fair for those reasons. When the fully purpled power in this context is only a bit better than the more conservatively procced one for like 5x the cost, I can see where it gets kind of shifty. The goal there was also just to highlight just how better procs made even a high-damage power on a high-damage AT. That goes into the other point though, where Procs are indeed meant to push a power further than possible normally (both in raw strength and with bypassing modifiers and caps). However, a part of the whole discussion here is "how much should they give?". With certain powers, you get WAY more output by loading them with procs and "gaming" the PPM system with outside bonuses. Of course this is balanced by loss of set bonuses if you do it to many powers, but are even having a handful of bombs, or game-changer proc powers as @oedipus_tex mentioned (Bonfire, etc), acceptable? Of course there is more to the game than that, but for the purpose of this discussion with regard to the real meta and HUGE chunk of the game dedicated to the IO system, I feel it is a disservice that they do not even get the opportunity to play with it. Hell, I am able to use IO's to make concept characters in unique ways that don't 100% rely on the meta, but still have effectiveness and fun!

Its a little complicated due to also having a ton of health bars and potentially the best mitigation in the game with how bodyguard works + the sheer output an MM can send out when the stars align... I think being able to give a pet an insp for full effect should still work, but for ease of use and to curb goofiness maybe like 1/2 value on normal inps or something for the pets would be nice

Was thinking more for normal insps, but something like the MM can pop an insp and gets full effect, Pets in Supremacy get X/Yths the effect

Thinking on this a bit, it would be kind of neat if the ST controls in Dominator primaries were treated more like proper attacks compared to Controllers... Precedence is already set with some of the heavy-hitter melee attacks Doms even have access to (Like Seismic Smash with Smashes AND holds!) for them to have ranged attacks that happen to be a mez.

could use the bodyguard method somehow where like, inspirations are *divided* amongst you all

I think this falls into the risk vs reward, and a bit of design. A lot of the tougher mobs have "BS" mechanics like stacked vengeance and phasing randomly that you can't stop. Stuff like even Malta I feel is more fair with specific mobs that do nasty stuff you can mitigate with strategies, or even stuff like the Ghouls with their aoe heal on death that mitigates steamrolling (tho they are not found later on). However, those mobs are not more valuable than (Council / insert easier mob here) so there is always the choice of Easy vs Hard/ANNOYING enemy for the same results, so guess which is often picked?

To clarify: The thread here is more to discuss how IO's have impacted the game enough to where it should be addressed in some / certain manners. IO's are incredibly flexible, so balancing to a certain kind or build is a fool's errand, but recognizing that in general they push the envelope on what somebody brings to the table is beyond what was "intended" is something to look at. This then raises the following questions regarding IO - Balance: How many people actually use them and how hard do they go? On the latter part, where is the tipping point in strength for like "Mid Level" investment to where they become generally godlike? Are the barriers to entry on IO's a factor? Whether by education, cost, drop rate / how they drop, etc Are IO's balanced against each other? I keep bringing up this example, but look at -Def sets vs Stun sets. The unique perks of one is clearly superior here. Sets are said to not be *explicitly* balanced with IO's in mind, but the sets they can take can make huge waves Are Procs/Proc Bombs / Certain powers that can radically change with IO's balanced? Much more nuanced, but as mentioned are some powers like Jolting Chain / Bonfire sort of expected to be IO'd out? Are sets that can accept game-changers like FF or -Res balanced around those perks, and likewise sets that cannot? There's a lot that goes into each facet imo!

It's smashing damage tho, not slicing 😄

I don't think it's a matter of "THEY HAVE TO", but more of "oh wow, literally 90% of players do it and it is incredibly easy to slot up if new people choose to". From a new player's perspective, you get all sorts of messages "You found your first salvage!" "Why is the "Recipe" tab red? What do these do" "What are these Wentworth Buildings / Colleges?" that sort of lead to towards inventions naturally, and without the context of "we used to only have SO's in my day" + it being the year 2021 and HC is on discord + reddit where people will be finding HC and by osmosis info on builds, I think its a lot less "taboo".

Right, but its not so much having "every set needs jolting chain" and more "well, my set can slot generic X type damage and Stuns.... guess I'll just slot general X damage types and nothing fun". Certain sets have powers that are essentially defined by being able to slot specific IO's into it, other sets get the luxury of being able to slot a bunch of different IO types for fun/power/variety of builds, but then others just... don't get it. I would imagine the inf gain from level 45-50 is roughly similar, as the key in both instances was that generic IO recipes sell for 100k+ each at stores. So in that regard, playing the most basic of content at high level (not necessarily 50, hell even if you're Sidekicked on such a team you'll get these recipe drops to sell not to mention the orange salvage you can get at any time) can easily make you bank. The point being though, just *playing* can net you enough money to even buy purples in relatively short time without specifically gunning for max inf/hr. Its not telling them that "you need to keep playing once you hit 50", but there are HUGE amounts of people that play their 50's regularly, or even 40+, teaming with max/high levels, etc. With that in mind, the income is definitely there without needing to go ham. I would imagine those who make 3290847234 characters are not getting them all to 50, and most of them are not even going to see investment, making it sort of an odd factor. The question though is if the barrier to IO's is so low now if one chooses to use them, is it expected?

The title is a mouthful but it says it all, currently we have this: Ew When we should have this:

One thing I'll say about the talks of Dev / Synapse intent: they were willing to radically change the chance of firing system once...

On mobile, but it depends on the build what you give up and what becomes a bomb. If you have 1-2 powers as bombs you could still get great other stats without sacrificing much + getting a wicked good power. But anyways, that convo isn't so much about the bombs so much as how they are more due to the slotting options available allowing you to absolutely load up powers.

Stop that, I have never once asked for IDENTICAL. Rather, I pointed out there is a factual disparity in who can slot what. Whether this is due to lacking options straight-up (can only slot melee damage for example), or lack of options for what they can slot (lol Stun IO's), there is unequal *opportunity* for many sets. This was shown to have recently been addressed with End Mod sets, adding in End/Damage IO sets with very unique and fun perks and bonuses. This makes it so elec sets DO NOT HAVE IDENTICAL SLOTTING to other sets, but rather EQUITABLE OPTIONS. For balancing around IO's, I would much rather have that where tons of sets get fun perks they can choose from instead of facing limitations that similar sets do not have to endure. This is being obtuse, the same limitations occur for the power you're using the procs with. Procs do not exist in a vacuum, and often the "utility" procs like that are straight up game-changing due to how they interact with other procs and powers. My En/Time blaster can consistently have FF up at all times with just 2 AoEs that can take the proc in general combat due to target saturation + global recharge bending the rules of PPM. AoE's make it incredibly, incredibly unlikely it WONT fire off, and the nature of it's boost being global makes it way better than just about any other slot you can place except arguably the -KB slot depending on the power, which also arguably outpaces any slot per power that takes it (certain KB powers do not proc FF, but luckily go to TOWN if they become KD). As I showed earlier, even Casual McNewguy can earn enough to buy Purple IO's if they just hop into random radio missions in a timely manner on their lvl 50, making the barrier to do this just a matter of time investment/experimentation. Speaking of... The example I used avoided purples for a reason, being that they are above and beyond the normal procs. But, this also raises a question about it where a suite of a 5/6 purple set + another purple proc only slightly edged out a hodgepodge of random "rare" procs, should the expectation be that they spend a lot more on purples (even if they are comparatively affordable)? Yes, that does give you more options for set bonuses but if you get "good enough" elsewhere with a fraction of the cost/effort, why not use that one? I think this all depends on which way we're looking at it (bottom up or top down). From the latter, all bets are off and we can expect the best of the best of the best IO's / Incarnates / Etc being used.... but then does the content hold up to that/should that be an expectation for players to achieve regularly? From the former, just how much bang for your buck does certain slotting give you if you can make up for stats in those one/two bomb-powers in other ways, and does that greatly sway the expectations of how certain Powers, Power Combos, or even AT's perform? (For the latter, look at Scrapper vs Brute vs Scrapper with ATO's) I don't think we are seeing eye to eye when it comes to what we mean by balance. Proc-bombing I feel is kind of goofy by itself and for the sake of the few powers that are true "bombs" + to open up future IO's it may well be worth addressing, but it is not the main issue at all. Part of the balance too is what IO's are available per power/set/AT as I have touched on. A Fire/Empathy corruptor for example is pretty dry when it comes to fun extra stuff they could slot that could be game changing (not even damage procs, but utilities) compared to other combinations of Pri/Sec for a Corruptor. Its not that the combo is "Bad", but the lack of opportunity could leave it missing out compared to other set combinations and that is no fault of it's own/anything the player did simply because it does not have the ability to use certain gamechangers. The availability is of question too where it is far far easier to get IO's, and by a big extension but along the same path of thinking Incarnates, in HC... is it expected to be able to use these? If so, that doubles back on their impact to how sets perform in general.

What I meant there is that "it should not be 100% balanced perfectly", because that is an impossible goal. Smoothening the curves so that everything is competitive though is certainly achievable. Take for example... balancing a healing set with Rez powers vs the sets that simply prevent damage + soften enemies up so its harder for them to cause damage / be defeated faster + the fact players themselves build for these factors. In this sense, a "Healer" set is inherently disadvantaged in what it wants to do even if it heals for 3098473249897hp on auto fire. You'd pretty much need to make enemies that *require* healing to deal with, that also cannot be just nuked in order to make it matter. Even with that, it then may still not be balanced as now a set that is like a hybrid of heals and other things is now worse than a pure healer in that situation, etc, it'd just go on forever. A more realistic approach would be to make the healing sets at least still have value in some way to make them a competitive part of a team throughout the game in some manner without resorting to hammering in a puzzle piece they *need* to fill. That still doesn't address the set to set comparison. Sure, you could pick up a secondary with more slotting options (or vice versa), but then why not also pick a primary with more options too? FF needing to proc is hardly an issue due to how it works, given you can keep proccing it and stacking the duration and the +Rech helps it proc more. On a power you toss out often it can be very simple to maintain and the wiggle of like 1~2 seconds. The example there also avoided purples, though they are a factor as I posted earlier with how they are not as exclusive as they were back in the day. Point being, loading it up with procs + outside bonuses ended up being way better for offense on an AT that is regarded as a damage dealer. On top of that, an example of how certain powers can legit be loaded with procs while some cannot, with the type of power seeming to not matter given this is a melee heavy-hitter you could argue *shouldn't* need procs! As Monos said, there are also X factors that benefit procs even more if teams shore up slotting woes.

Another one I came up with based on the pants alone!