Excraft

I don't need to imagine the PL options being gone. It already exists. Anyone can log into Brainstorm server here and roll up as many level 50s as they want with all of the enhancements, badges and inf that they want in a couple of minutes with no restrictions. There are other servers out there that allow you to create a level 50 with all badges, accolades, enhancements and billions of inf right from the start. There's no population there. That's an abundantly clear indication most people don't want an "I win" button. If it were, Brainstorm would be heavily populated and there would be more and more people migrating to other servers. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, and there are many HC posts about this over the years that confirm this is their philosophy as well, people fundamentally want to feel like they've earned something. Given the population here, that experience and feeling like you've earned something is what most people are getting from playing here. That's why they're here and not elsewhere. A great thing about HC is there are options for all kinds of people to play how they like. Don't like the low level content? Don't do it. Hit the S.T.A.R.T. vendor, grab your double XP boosters and DFB/DiB/SBB your way into the 30s, or PL yourself in AE all the way to 50. Want to play through every single story arc the game has to offer? Go for it. There's something here for everyone. These are you problems. There is already plenty of variety in terms of power set combinations and builds you can make. If you're not using powers that you usually skip, then don't skip them. If you're bored PLing and sick of DFBs, stop doing them. I don't know how you're planning builds, but for me, I never take anything I don't need. If you are, then again that's a you problem. Nothing about saga mode makes lower level content "more interesting" to play. This is a non-answer. We're not talking about chess. We're talking about this game, and like other games, this one offers tangible rewards for running content in the form of XP, inf, merits etc. that are used as currency and to incentivize people to run the content. What's the tangible reward with saga mode to incentivize actually playing the content? This isn't "new and exotic" builds though, it's just changing the order in which you take your abilities. You eventually wind up in the same place. You're still stuck within the parameters of your chosen powersets and power pools. So you can take higher tier powers first. So what? You'll have to take your lower tier powers at later levels, so you essentially wind up in the same place, except in saga mode you're gimped from being saddled with SOs only. Correct. You don't need to min/max all the time. You can choose to make SO only builds right now. You can choose to play through the story content the old-fashioned way right now. There are people in a couple of SGs I'm in who have weekly "crawl" teams playing and leveling through running story content. There's nothing stopping you from doing this too.

Given that they've said the very first thing they did when the joined HC was to PL in AE, I imagine the "fun factor" for having a nuke at level 2 would wear off within a few minutes.

This is an extremely simple question to answer. City of Heroes was launched 21 years ago come this April. After 21 years (and counting), it still has a loyal following and manages to attract new players. Even after 21 years, there are a lot of people still here, still finding something they enjoy to keep them playing. So the extremely simple answer to your question is "a very long time." Far, far longer than I suspect the utterly trivial amount of time it would take before you became bored with running low level content in "saga mode". It's not making the content more interesting though. It's shuffling the order of what level you can take a power. You ignored these questions, so I'll ask them again. Where is the incentive to actually play the content using saga mode in lieu of just PLing a saga mode alt in AE to finish the build first? Or running DFB, DiB to skip the first 20 or so levels? Where and what is the actual tangible reward for doing playing saga mode? What are some "new and exotic builds" that can be made in saga mode that can't already be made? What's the incentive to continue playing saga mode when you're limited to SOs and will always be outclassed and outperformed by others who are able to take full advantage of the invention system?

Well yes, I have been. Yes I was and no, I don't need to. I understand your idea just fine. I understand the sentiment behind it - making the early game "fun" again for you - and I understand why your idea as presented won't work.

That's not sufficient reason enough to toss the core design of the game away.

I'll ask one more time, how does your idea "breathe new life into old content" and "make lower levels more palatable"? From what I can see, it doesn't achieve that beyond a very brief kitsch factor of having higher tier powers at lower levels. So what? That "fun" will fade very quickly as the game play itself and mission content remains exactly the same. So you used Total Focus instead of Barrage at level 3 or Inferno instead of Fire Blast at level 6. Again, so what? That's not changing anything about the game play itself. How long will that "fun" last? Some more questions: Where is the incentive to actually play the content using saga mode in lieu of just PLing a sage mode alt in AE to finish the build first? Where/what is the tangible reward for doing playing saga mode? What are some "new and exotic builds" that can be made in saga mode that can't already be made? What's the incentive to continue playing saga mode when you're limited to SOs and will always be outclassed and outperformed by others who are able to take full advantage of the invention system? Again, this is a you problem. People are offering their perspective, not to personally attack or insult you, but to have a discussion and perhaps make refinements to your idea. Do you think your idea is perfect as is? Ok, good for you. It isn't. I'll continue to say so and offer more feedback for you. I don't think you understood the post. I could be wrong, but as I read it, it's to show that regardless of what powers you pick (whether in saga mode or not), the game play itself is the same. It's not someone rolling up the same character twice. It's just to point out the mechanics are the same. For the second part, it's the same thing as you move up in levels. If you're making a character and choosing all of the higher level attacks and defenses at early, there's not much left to take as you level up. Instead of having an upward sloping bell curve in terms of player power with regard to more powerful attacks and more powerful defenses as you go higher in level, saga mode is reversing that curve and putting the player on a downward slope in terms of power and performance. That issue is exacerbated by limiting you to SOs only. I suspect you're joking, but in case you aren't, I didn't say that you or anyone else should leave. Pointing out other servers is more an invitation to check out what others might be doing and seeing if someone finds it fun. It's not telling anyone to leave here and never come back.

I'll ask again, how is that "breathing new life into old content" and "making lower levels more palatable" when in terms of actual game play in how this would work, it's the same thing as we have now?

To be honest, this is a you problem. Others have provided their thoughts, opinions and feedback on a public thread where you chose to post. The fact that they don't like your idea as presented doesn't mean anyone is deliberately trying to shut you down or your idea. It just means that they don't like it as presented and are offering you their critique in order to help you refine your idea. You seem to be taking that as some personal slight, and any disagreement as a personal insult and attack on you. It isn't. The only person I've seen in here saying they don't care what others want or what they think is you. That's a good indicator of where the problem is.

While I'm sure that there are some who don't want anything to change, I suspect that most people here welcome updates to the game. I'm sorry that your idea is no good and more people don't like it.

I'm still waiting to see how "saga mode" addresses the above. That's actually how the game would play using "saga mode" and there's really no meaningful difference. So how is "saga mode breathing new life into old content"? So we can use Headsplitter or Inferno at level 2. Ok? So what? How is that "breathing new life into old content" and " making lower level content palatable again" beyond the minor novelty of having a nuke at level 2? We already have multiple build slots, any one of which can be limited to using SOs only.

Yeah, good luck with that. I don't see this happening here. I think one of the other servers is set up this way though!

Right so.... why would I want to gimp myself using "saga mode" again? I'm still not seeing how it "breathes new life into old content". Good to know. Many of those people you aren't concerned with are fine with how the game actually is now, and your proposal is out of line with how they like things now.

So you're not interested in feedback then, only attacking anyone who disagrees with your idea even though they provided you valuable feedback.

I think this shows why saga mode isn't worthwhile. It's not adding anything new to the low level content. Further, it's basically reversing the power curve where instead of the game becoming more enjoyable at higher level because you've become more powerful, it becomes less enjoyable because you already have the things you wanted at lower level and there's nothing left to really look forward to. This is made even worse by being limited to SOs only, and the performance hit from that doesn't make characters in saga mode worth the extra effort. I don't see them being effective in hard mode content either, which is a big part of why many people farm alts and build them specifically for 4 star runs.

This would be true if there weren't several other changes for balance and to how the powers themselves work. It's not really the same thing as asking for every power in a set to be accessible at any level right from the start. That's not to say that this was a good idea on the part of HC either. Some will say - and I don't necessarily disagree - that it further exacerbated the power creep problem. Honest question - do you believe that most people stay here because they don't like the experience and just don't want to leave? As has been mentioned here, other servers will let you build a fully kitted out 50 in minutes. People can re-create their mains in a few minutes. So why don't they all move en masse? People have to be getting some level of enjoyment and satisfaction staying here. I'm just being honest, if you're finding the lower level content that bad, then don't play it. Find something else to do. Boredom is a you problem. As for people wanting to feel like they've earned something, that's true and it's what the HC folks have said themselves in many posts over the years. Here's one I could find just in a quick search. See above. There were other changes made to those abilities, so just opening up access to every power at any level like with saga mode doesn't really compare. It's not really the same thing.

And this server maintains the highest population because its providing the game experience most people are looking for. If it weren't, more people would have migrated to other servers.

Pot meet kettle. The Temporal Warrior system didn't break the game or the progression system as those characters are restricted to use within PvP zones only. Other characters are still required to play the regular game content to outfit the TW PvP characters. Well no, like you, I'm suggesting based on my personal experience that the people you are suggesting will be enticed away from PLing their alts in AE with "saga mode" isn't going to happen. It just won't. I don't care if I could get a nuke or headsplitter or whatever else at level 2. Everyone I know who PLs alts in AE just doesn't like the pre-30 game, and every single one of them plans out builds that take full advantage of the invention system and set bonuses. They're all doing this because characters kitted out with IOs perform far better, especially when exemplared. Restricting them to SOs only wouldn't be any kind of enticement for them. It would have the exact opposite effect. Cake is another server and you know that. Cake offers a system to totally bypass the level progression system. If that's so important to you, why aren't you there? If there are so many people who aren't interested in low level content and want to skip over the progression, why isn't there a larger player population there? There have been a couple of counter suggestions here to get people playing lower level story arc content that are far more interesting than getting rid of the progression system and restricting people to SOs only. I'm sorry your idea stinks, but it does.

This is a far better idea for a "saga" mode.

How it would break the game has been explained by several posters here over several follow up posts. You're just deliberately choosing to ignore those posts because they refute your idea. No one is forced to bypass the content either. No one is forced into PLing alts in AE either. If people wanted to play through the content to level their characters, they will, and there are a great many that do. Your idea isn't going to entice anyone who farms up alts into playing the content the "normal" way. Being stuck with SOs only would be a huge deterrent. The only bullshit in this thread is the suggestion of "saga mode" and the notion that it would make the content "more appealing". If people weren't interested in progression, other servers like Cake where you get a free 50, any enhancements you want, every possible badge, Tier 4 incarnates and 2 billion inf right in Atlas Park at level 1 would have much larger populations. I'm sure the three people who actively PvP here appreciate that too. They still need alts in the regular game to earn stuff for their PvP alts. I'm fairly confident they would have zero interest in your "saga" mode and would just continue farming in AE. You're doing the exact same thing you're berating someone else for. Quite clearly there are many different people in the game with many different ideas on how they want to play. You don't speak for them, nor do you have any idea what the majority of players want. Your idea isn't making the content more novel or interesting. It just means you're stuck with a character that can't take advantage of the invention system and would perform vastly inferior to other players. THAT is something to be actively avoided. For you it might be. It hasn't for others.

Yeah but it's a "new" and "innovative" way to get bored quickly! 🤣

It's all in the wrist. 🤣

You're still selecting the same powers from the same sets, so there's nothing new here other than the order you're picking them. You're reshuffling a deck and trying to say its a different deck, but it isn't. It's the same deck. This is a nonsensical argument. Why bother with levels and progression at all then? Just let people pick all their powers, slots and enhancements right from the start since balance isn't an issue. Once again, the progression of power and levels is a core aspect of the game and the incentive to keep playing it. Throwing that all out and saying "it's NEW!" isn't fixing anything. It's just breaking the game. And no, that's not "dogma", it's the code. Adding in the WST system is what got people to play content at varying levels. If you are looking to "breathe new life into old content", a far better suggestion is to expand the WST to include story arcs as well, not just TFs/SFs/Trials. As far as producing new power sets, new missions, new zones etc., those things are new. Saga mode definitely isn't.

Exactly. He was knocked out of the air because the mass/kinetic energy of was greater than his. If vibranium can absorb all kinetic energy, why was Sam knocked back when the Red Hulk punched him?

Ok, so its clear you're being willfully contrarian and argumentative. A player can make whatever character concept they like with whatever skin texture they like and it doesn't need to conform to your ideas of what is or isn't appropriate for their chosen power sets. Having more options for minimal/no VFX on any set doesn't negatively impact you in any way since you don't need to use those options.

I can't speak for everyone, but I can tell you even if your idea were implemented, I still wouldn't play the lower level content. There's very little that anyone, the HC people included, can do to make me want to slog through the lower levels for the umpteenth time. No one suggested you couldn't make the suggestion. Of course you can, by all means, please do.