Excraft

Buddy, I heard you the first time. I've no problem respecting the request as (again) I'm not the one spawning Titans. You're focusing your outrage in the wrong direction. Feel free to keep repeating yourself though if it will make you feel better. Also, one more time: does this request apply to everyone? I'll say again - this is the first I've ever heard that the Kronos alone is (maybe) causing a problem for an individual player. The way it's been presented and argued over every time I've seen is that people have said the Kronos is causing problems for everyone. It should be abundantly clear to you reading through this thread that not everyone knew the specifics behind the request. That's a communication problem. As has been discussed in the thread here, lag is coming from the cumulative effects of all of the giant monsters, all of the players, all of the pets, all of the VFX for powers, all of the NPCs and critters on the map. Where the tipping point is between "normal" and "laggy" is going to vary from player to player based on any number of things. It does sound to me like you might have an outdated driver on your GPU if it's just the Kronos AoE causing you lag. Are you lagging even when there's no Kronos there? Just a suggestion, but perhaps you may want to make a thread in the Torchbearer forums about the SNS and any suggested rules you may have for it? People can be directed there since it's clear that not everyone knew of the issue for you.

I'm not the one spawning a Kronos Titan, so please direct your ire toward those who are. I'd also ask (again), does that go for everyone?

You're assuming everyone knows this or knows why this was even requested. I assure you, not everyone knew what the issue was.

How is someone bringing a Kronos Titan or another Babbage to the SNS outside of the main league "interfering"? If they bring more Babbages instead - which absolutely will add to the lag for everyone - how is that any different? Outside of someone intentionally griefing others by pulling GMs to the safe rock in the Hive, I don't think anything else you've mentioned here is breaking any game rules. A GM could clarify for certain whether or not it is. Taking down pylons early in a zone MSR can be looked at as beneficial since its saving the league a bit of time and effort. There are instanced MSRs now and players can hold costume contests in Kalisti Wharf or Echo Plaza or their SG base where there are no mobs around. I can understand what your saying here and I don't necessarily disagree with you. I will say that those people who are taking the time to run the Crimson arc to bring a Kronos are investing their free time as well. They are taking the time and making the effort to bring the Kronos across the entire map to the gathering area for everyone to fight. I'll also add that sending out truly offensive and rude tells to people who have said the Kronos isn't a problem for them and demanding others in the league berate them and globally ignore those people is just as, if not more, childish behavior. Lastly on this, it seems incredibly strange to me how selective the Kronos problem is depending on who is bringing it. Fusion Force spawned 2 (or maybe 3) Kronos Titans during the SNS as part of their 20th anniversary event. They were glowingly praised and thanked in broadcast for it. Why are some people getting a pass and others aren't? I don't know you personally, but this seems to me like the sense of entitlement @tidge mentioned. It's ok if people you like do something, but it's wrong and griefing if its anyone else. Same here.

I'm sorry to hear that you're getting vitriol. Thank you for clarifying what the issue is for you. This sounds like a possible driver or hardware issue with your graphics card? It seems a bit strange that it's ONLY the Kronos Titan AOEs causing issues for you and nothing else. This thread has covered a lot of technical reasons what causes lag and why lag is a cumulative problem. Is there a way to test this for you outside of SNS event? Like spawning a single Kronos for you somewhere and seeing if it impacts you or not? I'd be happy to help if I can. I certainly hope you don't retire the SNS event.

I wouldn't even begin to know what their motivation is for behaving the way they do. All I know is, there are players out there who are very rude simply for no reason other than others having the audacity to disagree that the Kronos is an issue. Were I to take a wild guess, I'd say they're behaving that way because their friend or someone they like told them the Kronos is a problem (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) and they just believe it because reasons and the person is their friend, so they just go with whatever they say. I think you're right - "misinformed" is a good descriptor. But whatever, people can believe what they want and that's ok. It's like @ZacKing said above, the people bringing the Kronos Titans aren't breaking any game rules, so let the people who don't like it continue to complain. Those who don't mind are going to continue to enjoy the additional monster fight(s). Come to think of think of it about breaking rules - some of the regulars on the main league might be breaking the multiboxing rule when they're firing up alt accounts and bringing their added Babbages during an event that's putting a lot of stress on the map and/or server.

This sounds like a great idea for a new prestige pet - The GooglyMoogly monkey! 😁🤣 Thank you for this. This is a very reasonable summation of what is most likely causing the problem of the occasional Babbage running off. People seem to forget that aggro management can be tricky, especially when you have players shooting all of the sprockets being spawned by the Babbages. That's increasing the number of targets for the taunters to maintain control of. Players using nukes or judgement to kill sprockets are hitting Babbages too. Not to mention the overzealous players shooting Babbages or applying debuffs while waiting for the official go signal, and/or MM pets set to Defensive that are way too close to the gathering area. I think you're absolutely right. I'd like to ask, what exactly is the harm in bringing another monster to the mix? @tidge brings up a very good point. What's the difference between other players bringing another added Babbage or a Kronos Titan? Why are you assuming those people bringing Kronos Titans are there to "stir up trouble"? The only people complaining about the Kronos were the people who seem to believe it's the root cause of all of the problems like lag and scattering. It's clear that it isn't. And anyone who dared suggest otherwise in broadcast or league/team chat were belittled for their opinion. I know this for a certainty because my daughter received some very rude and nasty tells simply because she said in broadcast the Kronos doesn't cause the problems. I saw league chat where global names were being shared and people directed to put those people on global ignore because they said the Kronos is not an issue. Last week in specific, there was one complete ahole there shouting obscenities in broadcast, but that had nothing to do with the Kronos discussion.

Thank you @Number Six and @GM_GooglyMoogly for taking the time to respond. Good to have confirmation that the Kronos isn't the massive problem some are making it out to be. That's what I gather from the complaints and league/broadcast chatter as well. Those on the league who have been saying that the Kronos is a "huge problem" and "causing all the lag" don't have any hard evidence to back that claim up if you ask them. Their "evidence" amounts to "so and so heard from such and such who spoke to someone who heard from a Dev" that there's "something in the code for the Kronos" that makes it "cause lag" and such. They believe it because their friend told them, so that must make it true. Thankfully, having the reply here from @Number Six confirms none of that is true and we have a definitive answer. I agree it's not any of the SNS league leaders, but there were a few of them in the main league last week telling everyone to put people on global ignore (even sharing the globals in league chat) simply because they had they said they didn't believe the Kronos was a problem. I'm near positive that a few of the "regulars" on the main league were the ones who sent my daughter those very rude tells. Probably the same players who sent @Yumichan the rude tells. So it might not be the league leaders themselves, but they certainly don't seem to discourage it or say/do anything to curtail bad behavior like that. There was one player who was exceptionally rude last week who I'm sure the GM staff got plenty of support tickets about. They were extremely pissed off that they couldn't fill their Synapse TF and blamed the league for it. Totally uncalled for and rude behavior. I don't think it's a problem to have others show up just for the Babbage fights. The SNS is broadcast in LFG and other global channels when its forming and when the Babbages will start getting rounded up, so other people are always welcome to join in on the fun. If the league leaders didn't want others to join in on the fun, they wouldn't be broadcasting it.

I agree, it would be great to have a definitive answer to this. I'm hoping someone from HC sees the thread and can answer definitively as it's sadly bringing out the absolute worst behavior in some people. Just last week there was a lot of ridiculous and childish bickering in broadcast over someone bringing a Kronos into the Babbage pile. There were several people on the main league belittling others in broadcast and essentially demanding players in the league put those people on global ignore simply because they're of the opinion that the Kronos isn't the cause of any of the perceived problems. My own daughter got some extremely offensive and nasty tells from a few of these people because she said said the Kronos is fun and isn't a problem. That's definitely not cool for people to behave like that, especially since she was on her tank and was helping to corral the Babbages as she usually does. I don't think the Kronos is an issue either. My daughter was in on the overflow league last week and they were very short on taunters as the main league started exiting. Lack of sufficient aggro management combined with MM pets close by the gathering area and overzealous players tagging Babbages is what was causing them to wander off. Not to mention there was one complete ahole there deliberately trying to sabotage the event because they were pissed they couldn't fill a Synapse TF and blamed the SNS for it. Anyway, Babbages wander whether there's a Kronos there or not and there's lag whether there's a Kronos or not, so the Kronos isn't a problem. I think you're exactly right in that it's the large number of players in the zone in a concentrated area firing off everything under the sun at once. That's a lot for the game to render in such a tight space, so there's going to be lag, just like the ToT/Zombie/Banner leagues in PI get laggy due to all the players and FX in one spot. I second this. Big thanks to @Kalikamatafor hosting this every week. It's a great time and fun community event.

No, badge count and create date and power choices aren't an indicator of player skill. There are just as many "veterans" out there with hundreds upon hundreds of badges playing characters created years ago who simply don't know what they're doing as there are these mythical new players who don't know where a particular zone is. This kind of behavior is bordering on elitism, if not there already.

Here is another good example of why certain people wanted the creation date kept private. Badge count and create date are meaningless as they don't tell you anything at all about the player behind the keyboard. Yet there are those out there who seem to believe low badge count and a 2 day old 50 are an indication of player skill. For all anyone knows, it's a non-badging alt of a player with years of experience who could do MO runs of every TF in their sleep.

Nothing. Some people just can't handle others challenging their opinion or having a thought that differs from theirs.

@Crysis @Andreah @Shin Magmus - you're straying off the topic at hand for this thread. If you'd all like to have a discussion about how Fold Space works, I kindly ask you to please create a guide or start a separate thread for that. This thread is for people to discuss the etiquette of using Fold Space or not on leagues like ToT. Thank you.

You'd be amazed at how many people playing tankers don't slot or even use Taunt.

Wow seriously? I agree with @lemming this is probably a major reason for the CoC updates around multiboxing. Sadly, if Fold Space is being abused like this, it's probably time for the HC folk to take a look at the power and make some adjustments.

I wouldn't say that the Council updates are harder. Annoyingly tedious is a better description I think. Personally, I'd have preferred a new enemy faction that's a bit on the tougher side and left the Council alone. Sometimes it's just fun to mindlessly punch bad guys in the face and steamroll them.

I do the same, but this is digressing from the point of the thread. Main takeaways I'm seeing here are that it's not Fold Space itself, but how others are using it poorly and aren't communicating when using it. @ZacKing hit the nail on the head here. I think that's it exactly. Using Fold Space in the ToT league where it isn't really needed is taking away fun from others. Some people using it don't see that and can't put themselves in other people's shoes. This is supposed to be a fun community event with everyone jumping in to have some fun fighting endless hordes of bad guys. If you're using Fold Space to pull mobs off of other people, that's taking away something fun from them. So far most people I've encountered will stop using it when asked politely, but there have been a couple of people who are very rudely adamant about not using it. Honestly, you really don't need it, but if you find you must, maybe take the advice folks have given in this thread and communicate to others in the league so they know what's going on. No need for anyone to be rude.

I'm glad someone understands the blatantly obvious!

Good one!

I'm curious what everyone thinks about this particular topic. Its something I've seen come up a few times now that the Halloween event is in full swing - players using Fold Space on ToT leagues teleporting mobs off of other players. I've seen it happen quite a few times now where it's causing friction and grief among teammates on Leagues. First, it appears there are a lot of players out there that don't know what Fold Space is or how it works, and they question in League chat why mobs are disappearing from around them. Reactions to someone using Fold Space range from finding it utterly hilarious to getting pissed off and quitting the League. Some have asked that it not be used while on the League. Most everyone is polite and respectful and obliges and there's been a few who really were quite rude and refused to stop using it. For me, I can see both sides here. I've been ToT'ing with my Brutes and Tanks and have had someone teleport large mobs away from me. We're all on the same team/league so we're all getting rewards whether I'm killing stuff or someone else is, so not a big deal for me. I'll just move on to the next door. Others apparently don't think it's all that funny. I have seen some others get really angry about it and I can honestly understand their frustration. We all like fighting stuff. It's what all of us find fun and a big part of why we're playing. Being engaged with a large mob only to have it pulled away from right in front of them is taking that fun away and enjoyment from someone else. This Fold Space issue is along the lines of the whole use of Group Fly argument. Some people like it and some people don't. The question that comes up most is whether or not it's really needed. At least to me, powers like Group Fly and Fold Space are situational. If I had them, I'd be fine using it solo. However, if I'm on a team and it's bothering someone else, I can adapt and oblige as I like to be courteous to fellow players. Like I said, it doesn't really bother me but I can see how it bothers other people. What's your take on Fold Space usage? Is it ok/necessary to use on Leagues for ToTing or should it be used sparingly if at all?

Could not agree more! Well said.

No, it isn't "extra work" at all. It can be time consuming based on the server and time of day, but it isn't "hard work". Not by any stretch. Especially since most people joining teams or leagues already know what to do. Newbies who haven't run something before are the rare exception in my experience. The rewards for leading teams is getting to run the content you want to run when you want to. That's more than enough. I see my earlier question still hasn't been answered yet -

It's an honest question. You're suggesting people who lead teams or leagues should get some sort of special rewards for their effort. As @ZacKing correctly pointed out, not everyone leading a team is good at it and not everyone is a good leader. You've shared some of your bad experiences with team leads. I'm sure we've all come across team leads who proved to be woefully inadequate for any number of reasons. Should they get rewarded for badly leading a team?

Can we assume that a team leader who kicks another player for not turning off Group Fly wouldn't be eligible to get any extra special rewards?

You're very welcome. I'm delighted to be there. 😂