Maelwys

I can see them taking a little longer. But it'll hopefully not be HUGELY different after the T3 proc damage fix is in place. Honestly the difference in my T3's damage on Beta right now is bigger than the difference in the damage of all my T1s combined... and in theory it shouldn't be budging. Definitely worth testing again once the dust settles though!

To be honest this is my main complaint with the Set Bonus inheritance thing. Since MM pets don't benefit from recharge boosts; I'd like to see any Global Recharge they inherit be repurposed into something else like +Accuracy or +Damage instead. Sure, going up to 50% instead of 40% would be nice too, but I'd much rather have all those superfluous recharge bonuses be useful for something.

IIRC the T1 Upgrade powers should allow the inherent pet resistances to be enhanceable. The T2 is giving the Ember Demon a separate buff power ('Ember Shield'; along with its counterpart 'Ember Shield Owner'). Try checking the stats of Ember Shield Owner whenever your toon is actually being buffed by it - it wouldn't be the first time the preview info was using the wrong scalars.

NPC Caltrops has a Mag 50 Afraid effect with a duration of 1s. So after if you're out of the Caltrops; its debuff drops off fast. Monkey Gas is a Mag 50 Afraid effect with a duration of 2s. So in theory the "run away" component of it is only lingering for an extra 1 sec (although it does "ignore resistance") However due to how pet AI changes work it can take them a few extra seconds to shift from one behaviour to another (such as from "Panic Mode" back to "Normal"!) and henchmen also seem to quite enjoy continuing to run around (albeit perhaps changing direction a bit) after they've already started running. There is a "leash" on MM henchmen that should pull them back to you beyond a certain distance; but it's a little too large for indoor maps (and IIRC the code in question is also located very deep in the Spaghetti; so it doesn't really lend itself to being tweaked!). Personally I'll often try to work around the issue a bit by running Group Fly; but that's only really viable for Ranged or mostly-ranged pets like Bots/Mercs/Thugs. In any case, I suspect this particular tangent is getting decidedly off topic now for a Focused Feedback thread, so I'll shush 😛

In theory Crabberminds can mow through things VERY, VERY fast, but keeping the pets alive on farming runs is a stretch. My (pretty optimized) Crabbermind has no trouble soloing at +4x8; but they struggle on asteroid maps because they surround you with dozens of targets but VEATS lack any fine control over what their pets are attacking. Non-Crabbermind Crab builds tend to be more Tanky than Spike-Damage orientated; but you could look here (bottom of the post) and here for some ideas.

The devs are definitely aware of that particular headache. I imagine however that simply granting the Henchmen a major speed buff isn't the bestest ever idea. Anyone who has speed boosted a "prefer melee" pet can probably imagine the bedlam that might ensue: all it takes is a single instance of monkey gas/caltrops and they'll happilly superspeed off and aggro half the map... and since each pet has its own aggro limit; that's up to 17x6=102 new enemies that suddenly know about the MM. Which reminds me: making pets within Supremacy range functionally immune to the "Afraid" condition (OH NOES A 1 DAMAGE-PER-TICK AOE! RUN AWAY!!) would be a very beneficial QOL change. Another one to add to the wishlist pile... 😇 🎅 🎁

Agreed, which is why i said "Personally I'd prefer they'd set the break even point lower". With the currently proposed setup (once the proc fix makes it onto the servers) the damage output of the T3 pet in theory shouldn't be getting changed at all; and the damage output of the T1 and T2 pets should "break even" at +2 mobs (raw damage) and +3 mobs (procs). This means the T1/T2 henchmen will be dealing about 25.0%/9.7% (T1/T2) less damage versus +0s; and 16.9%/8.6% less versus +1s. But they'll be the same as before vs +2s... and they'll be dealing 30.1%/10.0% more damage vs +3s; 92.2%/30.0% more vs +4s and 125.1%/62.4% more vs +5s. So whilst it's small comfort to anyone that never fights more than +1s... that's a major ramp up in proportional damage (albeit perhaps not in absolute damage) at the higher end. Factoring in Proc damage muddies the waters a bit; especially if you're packing 3 procs per henchmen and have a "DoT" Radial Interface and Assault Radial Hybrid active. But at most it should be shifting things less than one tier to the right (so MMs might end up a little worse off vs +2s but they should still be noticeably better off vs +3s). I strongly suspect that if non-optimized MMs end up struggling then there may be an upwards tweak to damage output; at least at lower levels. However my own experience is that MMs are extremely strong soloists whilst levelling up compared to the other ATs - second only to Brutes in fact. Therefore having a minor damage decrease versus +0s/+1s until level 26 might not be a hugely impactful for anyone who isn't a /Poison. And they'll benefit once they start teaming up and/or turning up the difficulty slider. IMO if subsequent updates increase T1/T2 henchmen survivability (which is a distinct possibility - although as a disclaimer I'm not currently aware of any specific future MM changes beyond the above bugfix!) and help alleviate the T1/T2 Accuracy slotting requirement issues then all the better... and IMO that might be a wiser way to start going about retuning them rather than Blanket buffing their damage. (and FWIW my other wishlist items would include increasing the henchmen damage limit from 400% to 500%; and allowing ATOs to be slotted within all the MM's personal attacks; and finally tweaking the Aggressive/Defensive/Passive AI stances to give some kind of minor useful buff; at least on teams...)

AFAIK the point of this round of changes is simply to make the pets be even level without overly impacting their current performance. Performance tweaks can then come later. Currently the T1/T2 pets in test are actually a smidge more survivable than on Live (yes, even with the HP reduction) because by no longer being lower level they're taking less damage and being hit less often, and the same amount of allied healing will recover proportionally more of their total HP. And the difference gets bigger the higher the enemy level is. Offensively it's trickier, as making the aforementioned pets even level drastically changes their damage curve. Currently the Devs have set the "break even" point at +2 enemies so the intent is that they'll deal less damage versus even level enemies, and a smidge less damage vs +1s... in order to deal a smidge more vs +3s and more vs +4s and higher. (Personally I'd prefer they'd set the break even point lower, especially given how Proc damage is getting affected - however currently it's mainly Incarnate Interface DOTs and Assault Radial Hybrid DoubleHits that are taking the brunt of the nerfs) Hit Rate is currently almost unchanged (annoyingly) with the T1s and T2s having only a very slight increase vs higher level foes... and AFAIK that's purely due to them "rounding up" to ensure all these changes are never resulting in an accuracy nerf, rather than them intentionally trying to buff it. .......... I only started participating in Closed Beta testing recently (June) and haven't combed through all the older stuff that never made it through... but I highly suspect that the T1/T2 Pets spawning at lower levels was playing merry hell with any previous Developer attempts to rebalance MM performance, not least because any upward changes are greatly magnified in Incarnate Content. So I'm hoping that this level reshuffle, whilst not a buff in itself, at least clears the board and allows the Devs to properly buff MMs in an appropriately balanced manner later on (and not have to worry about those buffs potentially resulting in runaway performance increases in specific content/scenarios!)

Minor nitpick, but is the data in those definitely correct? The context here seems to suggest that in the above two tables; the first six numbers in each row is supposed to show the "additional accuracy slotting" required for each of the Henchmen tiers in order for that henchmen to reach a "softcapped Hit Rate" (e.g. 95%). However I can't quite seem to match these +Acc requirement numbers. I'd put it down to typos or poor rounding in the Hit Rate figures I'm using; but there's a pretty major difference even on the "Live" figures. HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) ) If we're aiming for 95% Hit Rate versus the foe in question; then that should reduce to: 0.95 = AccMods x (BaseHitRate+ToHitBuffs) AccMods = 0.95/(BaseHitRate+ToHitBuffs) These are the TEST vs LIVE henchmen BaseHitRate modifiers I'm currently seeing/using: vs So as an example... for a T3 henchmen with Supremacy versus a target that is +0 to them; it should be: AccMods = 0.95/(0.75+0.10) = 1.117647 on both Test and Live. Therefore providing the attack has an Acc modifier of 1.0, it should require ~112% total accuracy: 100% base; plus an extra +11.76% from slotting (rather than an extra +13%) Likewise the T2s should require (0.95/(0.67+0.10))-1.0 = +23.38% extra accuracy [on Test] and (0.95/(0.65+0.10))-1.0 = +26.67% [on Live] (rather than +27% and +31%) And the T1s should require (0.95/(0.58+0.10))-1.0 = +39.71% extra accuracy [on Test] and (0.95/(0.56+0.10))-1.0 = +43.94% [on Live] (rather than +47% and +52%) And as a result; these are the equivalent Tables that I'm getting: [WITH SUPREMACY] [WITHOUT SUPREMACY] Whilst it's getting late here and I'm a smidge sleep deprived... I seem to be able to corroborate the above values in Mids (after a bit of poking with BaseHitRate) and in the game; so I'm hoping I'm either reading your tables wrong or there're a few typos somewhere and I'm not going totally crazy... 😛

Thanks for confirming the T3 proc damage issue. I'll hold off on doing too many DPS tests until the fix for this gets pushed. Regarding the Accuracy issues (and I know I've already said this in PMs, but I think it's worth stating to a wider audience!) Compared to what's on Live, the Hit Rates of T1/T2 henchmen have NOT BEEN NERFED... at least in regular non-incarnate content. In fact, they've been very slightly increased. But whilst the numbers are never worse off compared to before; they're still VERY BAD. Meaning that Masterminds continue to suffer from a major Hit Rate disadvantage compared to other ATs... which is being highlighted by the introduction of level 55 mobs this patch. And the (possibly naive) playerbase expectation that "making pets all even level will do away with this accuracy problem; right?" makes this state of affairs extra disappointing. All that said; if the goal here is effectively to "make pets even level without buffing anything, then consider buffs later on" then fair enough. I just really hope that the (long standing) MM T1/T2 henchmen Hit Rate problem will be addressed sooner than SOON(tm) 😉 👍

Yeah +2-conning foes are what they're apparently aiming at as the "breakeven point" for non-proc damage; so it's good your data reflects that. As mentioned previously, I think the raw damage is in a reasonably balanced place right now for that "breakeven vs +2s" aim... but I'm not so sure about Incarnate proc damage. I strongly suspect that Interface Abilities which are weighted "75% DoT/25% Debuff" and Assault Radial Hybrid "Doublehit" procs are going to be seeing a much bigger drop in effectiveness; so that's something that I specifically would like to test once I get the chance later on in the week (pesky RL commitment time sinks...) 😝

Is that vs a "levelless" Pylon (three freestanding pylons, out the portal of the base in RWZ and turn left) or versus one of the level specific ones (out the same portal and turn right, several different conning pylons lined up in a row inside the little "shooting gallery") I'd advise testing against the latter, as the former treats everything attacking it as "even level" so the T1s and T2s have inflated DPS against it on live.

Copying part of my response from the main feedback thread here, since it's particularly applicable to Ninjas "Smoke Flash" changes: MASTERMIND ATO SLOTTING: Problem: Mastermind ATOs can only currently be slotted into the Pet summon abilities and specific Tier 7 abilities. On Live, specific Mastermind Primary powersets have more opportunity than the rest to slot ATOs - Thugs and Demons and Necromancy have Tier 7 powers (Gang War/Hell on Earth/Soul Extraction) which can take the ATOs. But Beasts, Mercs, Ninjas and Robotics do not. On Test there has been an attempt to resolve this by giving the Tier 7 powers of those latter four powersets (Fortify Pack, Serum, Smoke Flash and Maintenance Drone) the ability to slot ATOs. However none of those abilities benefit from Damage aspect slotting; and many of them do not benefit from Accuracy aspect slotting. Therefore much of the benefit of these ATOs is getting wasted (and Serum has some other potential issues with how +Damage enhancement interacts with +DamageResistance enhancement under the hood!) Ideal Solution: Let all damaging Mastermind Primary Attacks have the ability to slot ATOs. This would mean Personal Attacks from Mastermind Primary Powersets such as Call Swarm, Burst, Snap Shot and Pulse Rifle Blast would become able to take and benefit from the ATO sets and all of their various enhancement aspects - accuracy, damage, endurance and recharge. Having 3 extra powers per set which can potentially take ATOs would also open up a lot of build variety for Masterminds and drastically ease the pressure on sets like Mercs (which simply cannot cram every beneficial IO into its three summon abilities!) Potential Compromise Solution: Let the T1 and/or T2 Mastermind Primary Personal Attacks have the ability to slot ATOs. Similar to the above, but it'd limit the scope of MM ATO slotting to only one or two personal attacks; in case the Devs are concerned about opening it up too wide.

Copying part of my response from the main feedback thread here, since it's particularly applicable to Mercs "Serum" changes: MASTERMIND ATO SLOTTING: Problem: Mastermind ATOs can only currently be slotted into the Pet summon abilities and specific Tier 7 abilities. On Live, specific Mastermind Primary powersets have more opportunity than the rest to slot ATOs - Thugs and Demons and Necromancy have Tier 7 powers (Gang War/Hell on Earth/Soul Extraction) which can take the ATOs. But Beasts, Mercs, Ninjas and Robotics do not. On Test there has been an attempt to resolve this by giving the Tier 7 powers of those latter four powersets (Fortify Pack, Serum, Smoke Flash and Maintenance Drone) the ability to slot ATOs. However none of those abilities benefit from Damage aspect slotting; and many of them do not benefit from Accuracy aspect slotting. Therefore much of the benefit of these ATOs is getting wasted (and Serum has some other potential issues with how +Damage enhancement interacts with +DamageResistance enhancement under the hood!) Ideal Solution: Let all damaging Mastermind Primary Attacks have the ability to slot ATOs. This would mean Personal Attacks from Mastermind Primary Powersets such as Call Swarm, Burst, Snap Shot and Pulse Rifle Blast would become able to take and benefit from the ATO sets and all of their various enhancement aspects - accuracy, damage, endurance and recharge. Having 3 extra powers per set which can potentially take ATOs would also open up a lot of build variety for Masterminds and drastically ease the pressure on sets like Mercs (which simply cannot cram every beneficial IO into its three summon abilities!) Potential Compromise Solution: Let the T1 and/or T2 Mastermind Primary Personal Attacks have the ability to slot ATOs. Similar to the above, but it'd limit the scope of MM ATO slotting to only one or two personal attacks; in case the Devs are concerned about opening it up too wide.

Copying part of my response from the main feedback thread here, since it's particularly applicable to Robotics "Maintenance Drone" changes: MASTERMIND ATO SLOTTING: Problem: Mastermind ATOs can only currently be slotted into the Pet summon abilities and specific Tier 7 abilities. On Live, specific Mastermind Primary powersets have more opportunity than the rest to slot ATOs - Thugs and Demons and Necromancy have Tier 7 powers (Gang War/Hell on Earth/Soul Extraction) which can take the ATOs. But Beasts, Mercs, Ninjas and Robotics do not. On Test there has been an attempt to resolve this by giving the Tier 7 powers of those latter four powersets (Fortify Pack, Serum, Smoke Flash and Maintenance Drone) the ability to slot ATOs. However none of those abilities benefit from Damage aspect slotting; and many of them do not benefit from Accuracy aspect slotting. Therefore much of the benefit of these ATOs is getting wasted (and Serum has some other potential issues with how +Damage enhancement interacts with +DamageResistance enhancement under the hood!) Ideal Solution: Let all damaging Mastermind Primary Attacks have the ability to slot ATOs. This would mean Personal Attacks from Mastermind Primary Powersets such as Call Swarm, Burst, Snap Shot and Pulse Rifle Blast would become able to take and benefit from the ATO sets and all of their various enhancement aspects - accuracy, damage, endurance and recharge. Having 3 extra powers per set which can potentially take ATOs would also open up a lot of build variety for Masterminds and drastically ease the pressure on sets like Mercs (which simply cannot cram every beneficial IO into its three summon abilities!) Potential Compromise Solution: Let the T1 and/or T2 Mastermind Primary Personal Attacks have the ability to slot ATOs. Similar to the above, but it'd limit the scope of MM ATO slotting to only one or two personal attacks; in case the Devs are concerned about opening it up too wide.

As I understand it... in the process of raising the T1s and T2s to "even level" the whole aspect of MM damage balance got shaken up. Because if they just made Pets even level and left everything else as-is... then our T1 and T2 pets would be more survivable, more accurate, and deal more damage. There was an easy way to eliminate all the accuracy differences (which they did by applying artificial -ToHit debuffs once those pets get over a certain level). However there wasn't an easy way to address the damage or survivability differences. They did however attempt to hack at both on Closed Beta. The survivability differences have more-or-less been sorted out. Before the Devs settled on HP reductions; they tried reducing other things instead. Repeatedly. And specific primary and secondary powersets were being DRASTICALLY negatively impacted. We kicked up stink about it; and to be fair the Devs abandoned that very imbalanced approach. HP reductions are by far the most even-handed way to reduce survivability of the now-even-level pets to roughly match what they are on Live (and IMO they've gotten the balance just about right. Although I'd still prefer a 50% inheritance of Set Bonuses rather than 40%) The damage differences are still in flux. I know what the devs are apparently aiming for (+2s being the "break even" point for when damage output roughly equals what we're used to seeing... +3s and above taking more damage; +1s and below taking less damage). And I think that is probably a reasonable compromise since MMs tended to not overly struggle versus lower-conning foes in the first place. But I'm not convinced that we've actually REACHED that aim yet currently. Admittedly most of my issues are with Interface/Hybrid damage Procs - these were VERY SPECIFICALLY targeted by the devs (to the point where incarnate damage procs are now being treated differently than other regular damage procs) because they were apparently extremely concerned about runaway damage increases versus higher-conning foes. So I genuinely think that we need to provide a lot of empirical testing here to show the Devs what the average (no incarnate procs) and peak (with incarnate damage procs) MM damage output currently looks like... and try to get them to be comfortable to adjust their new performance upwards (assuming of course that the data shows it's a good idea!). And of course, also argue the case for T1/T2 henchmen hit rate being adjusted upwards... 😜

I was hoping you were going to weigh in @Neiska! 😉 IMO if we leave Demons aside and look at the overall tweaks to the AT (and T1/T2 henchmen in particular)... then pets becoming even-level is a slight benefit for survivability purposes (they have less HP... but against higher-level foes will take roughly the same proportional damage; and they gain more proportional benefit from allied healing and will be getting hit considerably less often) and a slight nerf for damage output (they're dealing a little higher raw damage versus +3 and +4 foes; but also dealing less raw damage against lower-conning foes. And anyone leveraging Interface Procs or Assault Radial Hybrid Procs is likely going to be very disappointed) and they (unfortunately) have exactly the same base hit rates as before so accuracy is a wash. If I get time I'd like to do some proper tests later on this week - such as some different level Pylon kills and AE Farming runs (Live vs Test) to try to pin down just what the damage output changes actually look like in real-world scenarios; especially versus +4x8 content. I know you personally (@Neiska) probably have a large number of Live "farming run times" to hand (at least for Bots!) so if you get the opportunity it might be worth doing a run or two on Test for comparison. Personally I expect that non-Demon /Kin MMs versus level 54 mobs should be seeing the biggest improvement (since the effective base damage of T1/T2s versus +5/+4 mobs has increased considerably, so if you can damage cap them then you should see a good bit of improvement) as long as you're not leaning big into Assault Radial Hybrid all the time. If we can get a few "best case" metrics shown here then that will hopefully highlight to the devs that the sky isn't going to fall in if/when they tweak things upwards a bit! 😛 [EDIT: Removed an inaccurate paragraph about Demon Powerset rebalancing]

The Devs definitely (rightly IMO) seem to be taking a "start off less powerful and tweak upwards" approach here. They've listened to feedback and made a few very positive changes on Closed Beta, but if we want to get them to budge further then we need to show them why. So please show some test results here folks 🙂 Currently the accuracy issues are my biggest concern given that we were just about coping before versus +3s (Lv50+1 MM fighting Lv54 mobs)... but now there are +4s (Lv55 mobs!) to consider. Damage output balance is trickier since it varies wildly compared to before for the T1s and T2s vs different foe level ranges. We're almost certainly better off now hit for hit against +4 foes... but those are the ones we have the most difficulty actually hitting in the first place. I'll try to do some testing against different levels of foes later to pin down some baselines. The ATO thing is a personal bugbear of mine. Yes, allowing the T7 abilities to slot them is technically a buff. But at least three of those T7s gain no benefit from damage aspect slotting... and yet the personal attacks are right there, practically SCREAMING for it... 🤷‍♂️

Can I encourage you to please put this feedback (ideally with a brief like-for-like Combat Log snippet showing a bit of henchmen damage dealt/taken on Live and Test) here: There is a lot to like about the MM changes, but there's also a little bit of poop in the pool. (the main headache IMO is the effectively unchanged T1/T2 henchmen Hit Rates; although the vastly lowered damage from Interface procs/Assault Radial procs is painful too!)

Interestingly, the 40% inheritance JUST ABOUT allows a single instance of 3x Gladiators Armor to make henchmen functionally immune to most enemy "Knockdown" powers. 40% of Mag 3 (Gladiator's Armor) is 3*0.4=Mag 1.2 protection. KnockBACK becomes KnockDOWN at Mag 0.75 or below IIRC... and a fair number of enemies possess Mag 0.67-0.75 Knockback powers. vs +4 foes the Purple Patch will make a Mag 0.75 KB become Mag 0.75*1.44=1.08... which is still a smidge below the Mag 1.2 protection you're giving your henchmen. (sure, anything over Mag 0.833 will be able to knock them over, but STILL... 😁 )

(i) Hurrah! 😁 Thank you, sincerely, for the work you've put into this. (ii) For everyone seeing this for the first time... be aware that the "set bonus inheritance" only applies to actual "IO Set" Set Bonuses. This means +MaxHP Set Bonuses from things like 3x Miracle and 3x Numina (+1.88% Hitpoints) work just fine... however effects from something like the Unbreakable Guard +7.5% MaxHP IO (which FUNCTIONS as a "Set Bonus" but isn't one of the Set Bonuses listed at the bottom of the IO Set whenever you hover over it) won't work. In the same vein... "KB Protection" will inherit from 3x Gladiator's Armor IOs but won't from a Steadfast Protection, a Karma or a Blessing of the Zephyr IO etc. (And yes, henchmen getting reliable knockback protection is one of the biggest winners from this patch, even if it's just -1.2mag per 3x Gladiators Armor!!) (iii) I would like to point out that "henchmen becoming even-level" isn't quite the buff that it might first seem. Traditionally the #1 complaint of MM players is that their T1 and T2 pets find it difficult to hit a foe which is higher than +3 to the MM (e.g. +5 to the T1 and +4 to the T2). THIS PATCH DOES NOTHING TO HELP WITH T1 AND T2 HENCHMEN HIT CHANCE beyond them gaining access to 40% of the MM's own Global Accuracy set bonuses (NOT Kismet!) because Mastermind T1 and T2 Henchmen currently have their Hit Rate artificially lowered by -8% (T2s) and -17% (T1s). T1: T2: T3: This replicates their Hit Rate penalty on Live (where they're lower level) but it means getting them able to reliably hit higher level mobs is still a royal PITA. Anyways, as IMO this is the biggest headache facing MMs and the changes do not go far enough in addressing it; I'm going to restate my proposed solution(s) below: ... ... ... T1 and T2 HENCHMEN HIT RATE: Problem: Mastermind T1 and T2 Henchmen currently have their Hit Rate lowered by -8% (T2s) and -17% (T1s). Even with the +10% ToHit from Supremacy, T1 henchmen still require just under 200% Accuracy (more than twice the ED cap!) before they'll achieve 95% Hit Rate versus the new Level 55 mobs; before debuffs. Which is completely unfeasible. Taking Tactics can somewhat offset this; as can taking specific primaries (Ninjas can slot Kismet into their T1 upgrade; Thugs have Enforcer Tactics) however it's still extremely difficult to reach the required levels of accuracy slotting. (e.g. even with Supremacy and fully-slotted Tactics your T1 pets still still require ~26% above ED-Capped Accuracy!) Ideal Solution: Lose the Hit Rate debuffs completely; give the T1 and T2 pets the default (75%) Base Hit Rate. Potential Compromise Solution: Swap the Hit Rate debuffs out for Accuracy debuffs. This would mean that the T1 and T2 henchmen still have a significant penalty; but it's far more achievable to counteract that penalty against higher level foes via additional Accuracy slotting. Having "Base Accuracy" differences between different critter "Ranks" is also a well-established thing - see the "Rank-Based Accuracy Multipliers" table here. As an example... if there was a -15% accuracy debuff on the T2s and -30% accuracy debuff on the T1s? With Supremacy: vs a +4 foe: the T2s would require ~109% Accuracy (rather than ~142%) and the T1s would require ~124% Accuracy (rather than ~197%) vs a +3 foe: the T2s would require ~79% Accuracy (rather than ~90%) and the T1s would require ~94% Accuracy (rather than ~132%) vs a +2 foe: the T2s would require ~59% Accuracy (rather than ~64%) and the T1s would require ~74% Accuracy (rather than ~94%) vs a +1 foe: the T2s would require ~42% Accuracy (rather than ~42%) and the T1s would require ~57% Accuracy (rather than ~64%) vs a +0 foe: the T2s would require ~27% Accuracy (rather than ~24%) and the T1s would require ~42% Accuracy (rather than ~40%) With Supremacy and ED-Capped ("+12% ToHit") Tactics: vs a +4 foe: the T2s would require ~71% Accuracy (rather than ~80%) and the T1s would require ~86% Accuracy (rather than ~116%) vs a +3 foe: the T2s would require ~51% Accuracy (rather than ~54%) and the T1s would require ~66% Accuracy (rather than ~80%) vs a +2 foe: the T2s would require ~37% Accuracy (rather than ~36%) and the T1s would require ~52% Accuracy (rather than ~56%) vs a +1 foe: the T2s would require ~25% Accuracy (rather than ~21%) and the T1s would require ~40% Accuracy (rather than ~36%) vs a +0 foe: the T2s would require ~13% Accuracy (rather than ~7%) and the T1s would require ~28% Accuracy (rather than ~19%) So that works out better vs +1s and above (with no Tactics) and vs +2s and above (with fully-slotted Tactics). And the negative impact against low-level foes is very minor. Also; personally I think taking Tactics and getting 86% Accuracy aspect in my T1 henchmen is an appropriate level of investment to reliably hit +4 mobs before debuffs. Look at the far right column in the below spreadsheet snippet. That's the Accuracy aspect slotting required for each of the Henchmen tiers to get them to cap their Hit Rate vs +3 or +4 mobs. And yes, that's +197% Accuracy required in your T1s (e.g. the equivalent of "6x Accuracy SOs" before ED kicks in!) if you're not taking Tactics. Even with a 6-slotted Tactics they still need ED-capped Accuracy plus another ~20% from set bonuses (which currently means their Master having +50% Global Accuracy) Also... MASTERMIND ATO SLOTTING: Problem: Mastermind ATOs can only currently be slotted into the Pet summon abilities and specific Tier 7 abilities. On Live, specific Mastermind Primary powersets have more opportunity than the rest to slot ATOs - Thugs and Demons and Necromancy have Tier 7 powers (Gang War/Hell on Earth/Soul Extraction) which can take the ATOs. But Beasts, Mercs, Ninjas and Robotics do not. On Test there has been an attempt to resolve this by giving the Tier 7 powers of those latter four powersets (Fortify Pack, Serum, Smoke Flash and Maintenance Drone) the ability to slot ATOs. However none of those abilities benefit from Damage aspect slotting; and many of them do not benefit from Accuracy aspect slotting. Therefore much of the benefit of these ATOs is getting wasted (and Serum has some other potential issues with how +Damage enhancement interacts with +DamageResistance enhancement under the hood!) Ideal Solution: Let all damaging Mastermind Primary Attacks have the ability to slot ATOs. This would mean Personal Attacks from Mastermind Primary Powersets such as Call Swarm, Burst, Snap Shot and Pulse Rifle Blast would become able to take and benefit from the ATO sets and all of their various enhancement aspects - accuracy, damage, endurance and recharge. Having 3 extra powers per set which can potentially take ATOs would also open up a lot of build variety for Masterminds and drastically ease the pressure on sets like Mercs (which simply cannot cram every beneficial IO into its three summon abilities!) Potential Compromise Solution: Let the T1 and/or T2 Mastermind Primary Personal Attacks have the ability to slot ATOs. Similar to the above, but it'd limit the scope of MM ATO slotting to only one or two personal attacks; in case the Devs are concerned about opening it up too wide. And also... T1 AND T2 HENCHMEN DAMAGE OUTPUT: Problem: Due to them becoming "even-level", Mastermind T1 and T2 Henchmen will deal more raw damage than before vs regular enemies. On Live, T1 Henchmen deal 80% damage versus a mob that is "even level" to their Master. T2 Henchmen deal 90% damage. And it gets worse as enemy level rises. Because this uses the purple patch scaling it affects ALL DAMAGE; including procs. On Test, they're now technically dealing 100% damage against an "even level" mob. But their regular damage modifiers and proc damage modifiers have been tweaked. These tweaks (particularly proc damage) changed from patch to patch on Closed Beta so have been difficult to pin down... but the stated intent is that regular damage should be "lower vs even level and +1, about the same against +2 and much better vs anything +3 and higher" and proc damage should be "about as effective as before vs +3 foes." Ideal Solution: It'd be easy to say "just set T1/T2 henchmen base damage to 80%/90% of what it is on Live; including procs"... but due to how things scale as enemy level rises that would work out drastically better versus higher level foes. Example damage ramp up versus higher-level foes with T1/T2 base damage of 80%/90% compared to Live vs +0s: 100% damage (T1s) and 100% damage (T2s) vs +1s: 111% damage (T1s) and 101% damage (T2s) vs +2s: 133% damage (T1s) and 111% damage (T2s) vs +3s: 173% damage (T1s) and 122% damage (T2s) vs +4s: 256% damage (T1s) and 144% damage (T2s) However to put this into perspective; there's a (rather persuasive to my mind) argument that the contribution to MM damage from T1 henchmen is relatively minor. Whilst dealing 73% more raw damage versus +3 foes looks like a pretty hefty jump; in practice that's only really going from 0.3 base damage to 0.52 base damage (e.g. a Battle Drone's "Heavy Laser Burst" would rise from 15.05 --> 26.08 damage per hit) and an increase in the order of ~11 damage per hit probably isn't worth worrying about in the grand scheme of things. Therefore if we pick +0 foes as the "break even" point and simply allow it to ramp up versus higher level foes then the sky is unlikely to fall in. Potential Compromise Solution: My gut feeling is that regular T1/T2 attack damage output having a "break even" point against +2 foes is acceptable... but proc damage could still use a bit of work. As far as I'm aware the most recent Dev power pokings made it so that compared to Live, henchmen damage from Incarnate Procs (e.g. "Damage over Time" from various Interface slot abilities; and "Double Hits" from the Hybrid slot Assault Radial abilities) is now severely reduced (at least outside of "Incarnate Content") but their damage from Regular Set IO procs is less severely reduced. And IMO this is one thing that could really do with further testing by a wider audience on Open Beta. To illustrate this; consider what happens whenever my henchmen fight a level 51 (e.g. even-level, not levelless!) Pylon in the RWZ On Live, T1s/T2s/T3s: On Test, T1s/T2s/T3s: Notice in particular the "Doublehit" and "Reactive Interface" proc damage. Even on my T3 henchmen (which has NOT had its level adjusted!) it's 65% lower on Test. And I'll close on a positive note... T1 AND T2 HENCHMEN SURVIVABILITY: Rebalancing the now-even-level T1/T2 henchmen's "survivability" was a particularly problematic issue on Closed Beta. Without mentioning any specifics, suffice to say that lowering the HP of the T1 and T2 pets was by far the best solution; and IMO the devs got this balance just right. But it's worth pointing out that what the Devs call T1/T2 henchmen's "Max HP" in the patch notes is what players would generally refer to as their "Base HP". Whilst a HP decrease of 22% [T1s] and 16% [T2s] might seem a bit harsh; given that at most they're only taking ~18% [T1] and ~10% [T2] less damage compared to Live; they're now getting the benefit of +MaxHP set bonuses (which are based on the MASTER'S HP not the Henchmen's!) so it's not quite as harmful in practice. (With set bonuses my Bot/Kin's T1s are sitting on 480.99 HP and their T2s on 678.34 HP, which is effectively a reduction of -16.20% [T1s] and -11.67% [T2s] compared to Live) There is ALSO a corresponding reduction of 22.00% (T1) and 16.00% (T2) in what players would generally refer to as their T1/T2 henchmen's "Maximum HP limit". LIVE: TEST: However in practice this will likely only affect Cold Domination (Frostwork!) and Marine (Power of the Depths) MMs.

Bear in mind that it only applies to actual "IO Set" Set Bonus. So if you have an effect from something like the Unbreakable Guard +7.5% MaxHP IO (which FUNCTIONS as a "Set Bonus" but isn't one of the Set bonuses listed at the bottom of the IO Set whenever you hover over it) then it won't work. Same reason that "KB Protection" inherits from 3x Gladiator's Armor IOs but not from a Steadfast Protection, a Karma or a Blessing of the Zephyr IO etc. (And yes, henchmen getting reliable knockback protection is one of the biggest winners from this patch, even if it's just -1.2mag per 3x Gladiators Armor!!)

That's what we in the trade refer to as a PICNIC error. And less tongue-in-cheek: Sure... but TBF, that argument also holds true (albeit possibly to a lesser extent) for many Scrapper players who have fat finger syndrome or slower reflexes or even server tick alignment and network lag (as my own testing with Gaussian/Scrapper ATO2 timings has proven!). So I think if we're talking about and trying to compare performance between more than one build then we have to consider that the character is capable of hitting those numbers, even if the physical hardware (or "physical wetware", in the case of the player!) is sometimes not. I'd consider all that another reason to expedite the Kheldian rework, frankly, since whenever damage output is being properly time gated by Arcanatime it inevitably has more leeway for a little bit of "wetware lag".

I'm also of the considered opinion that: (i) Damage per Button Press is a daft performance metric. Especially when discussing Pylon times. Katana Brutes press more buttons than Super Strength Brutes ones do, but the latter inflict considerably more damage (both per hit and over time). You could however make a valid argument that it's a useful busyness metric. Like how Kinetics is more busy than Forcefield. And I certainly accept that Barflings (that's my preferred term for them, since IMO it most accurately describes the sheer magnitude of all the audible and visual vomit) press a lot of buttons. (ii) This one honestly should be self evident, but here goes: All primary powersets are not created equal when it comes to damage output. Neither are all secondary powersets. Characters, once created, cannot change their Primary and Secondary powersets. All KineticMelee/Willpower Scrappers do not have the potential to be as powerful as the best-built Scrapper... but all Peacebringers have the potential to be as powerful as the best-built Peacebringer. And all Warshades have the potential to be as powerful as the best-built Warshade. This means peak damage potential for Kheldians has two data points. One for Peacebringers, and one for Warshades. But peak damage potential for Scrappers has (21 primaries x 15 secondaries)=315 data points. And many of those combinations will SUCK, comparatively. Because Primaries like Kinetic Melee and Staff are substantially less damaging than ones like Fiery Melee and BattleAxe. And because Secondaries such as Willpower, Super Reflexes and Regeneration etc. bring very little to the damage output table whereas Radiation Armor, Bio Armor and Stone Armor all bring quite a lot. There have been a lot of threads comparing the damage output of different Scrapper Primaries, but even a quick glance down the Pylon times sheet suggests that most of them won't come anywhere close to the best Barfling Peacebringer time. ----------------------------- FWIW: I consider the Kheldian animation cancelling thing to be an exploit. Although I recognise that the Devs are both aware of it and have intentionally left it as-is temporarily until they have the time to properly rework the AT. I also recognise that Kheldians could do with being buffed in order to considerably raise the level of their damage output whenever they are not using the aforementioned exploit. However I do believe that Kheldian peak single target damage output should NOT be as high after the rework as it is currently. Frankly, I don't believe they should be comparable with Scrappers. Tankers, sure. Brutes, maybe. But not Scrappers or Stalkers. And my main argument for this belief boils down to two things: Survivability and Nukes. Kheldians have a resistance cap of 85% that is easily permanently attainable, plus Crashless Nukes. Therefore IMO if anything balancewise their overall damage output should theoretically be below Sentinels... however their lack of Mez protection (outside Dwarf and Light Form) is restrictive enough to offset that and place them a little higher. Maybe. But I guess we'll see where things finally land once all the dust settles.

*takes a quick glance through his stable of min-maxed toons for ones that aren't Magic Origin and yet have the Sorcery Pool* (Spirit Ward, Arcane Bolt, Mystic Flight, Enflame) Grav/Thermal Controller (Spirit Ward, Arcane Bolt, Rune of Protection) Illusion/Time Controller (Spirit Ward, Mystic Flight, Rune of Protection) Water/Cold Corruptor Storm/Dark Defender Elec/Sonic Dominator Arsenal/Psi Dominator (Spirit Ward, Mystic Flight) Sonic/Elec Defender (Mystic Flight) Bots/Marine MM Energy/Rad Scrapper Beam/Bio Sentinel Beam/Ninjitsu Sentinel Elec/Shield Stalker Yeah, nope. Spirit Ward is excellent as it is. With Defender numbers and minimal slotting investment (EndRed/Heal HO, Heal IO) it'll grant a +506.28 Absorb buffer (renews at +50.628 every 2s) which does not encounter MaxHP limits. if you throw in a Panacea proc then it can also give that ally a decent amount of +Endurance/+Healing. Really the only time it's superfluous is if you're a permanent soloist with no pets (including Lores) but even then it's useful for muling the Preventive Maintenance global. Also; most of the Sorcery Pool can be recoloured to hide the sigils (Arcane Bolt is a little iffy; but pure white is bearable IMO)