Maelwys

It's not. Procs actually skew things slightly in favour of Brutes. Tanker's AoEs and Cones being capable of hitting 60-100% more Targets for full damage (and having 50% more coverage area in most cases!) is the problem. However it's a problem that only really becomes overtly troublesome whenever you are surrounded by enough targets for those AoEs and Cones to consistently achieve full target saturation. Like AE Farming (which is irrelevant for AT balance) and when steamrolling through content at +Nx8 (which isn't)

If the developer intention is that Tankers are to be the Tanky Melee AoE specialist, then either they need to deal more AoE damage compared to the other melee ATs (and we've already seen where that leads) or they need to be better at controlling the Aggro of a large number of targets. As I pointed out earlier, currently for the purposes of aggro control there is no point to raising the target cap of Tanker AoEs from 10 to 16 whenever Taunt auras and AoE punchvoke mean that the Aggro limit is already being consistently reached at the lower caps. Raising the Tanker aggro cap to about two full +4x8 spawns worth of foes (24+) would become capable of attracting the attention of more critters without dealing more damage to them. However there would still be an element of risk even on teams that choose to only pull two groups at a time because of the way the Taunt effect works (the threat level of the Taunter on each affected target is a multiple of both the remaining Taunt duration and the total damage that the Taunter has dealt to that target). Unless the Tanker is dealing consistent damage to each foe their Taunt effect on that foe will be "fragile"... certainly fragile enough that a Blaster (for example) will be able to peel them off the Tank. IMO this approach would allow Tankers to occupy a sufficiently different niche from Brutes (and Scrappers/Stalkers) that they can each be mechanically desirable on Teams for different reasons.

AFAIK the ATOs mostly follow the theme of the AT and often complement their Inherent. So the two more damage focused melee ATs each get two ATOs that give them greater damage (via more regular Critical Hits and additional Hidden state and Build up activations) and the more resistance focused AT gets two ATOs that give them greater mitigation (via more damage resistance and absorb). Brutes are supposedly more balanced and so get one of each: a damage boosting ATO (+Fury) and a mitigation boosting ATO (+Regeneration). Conceptually all that makes sense to me... but unfortunately in reality the performance of both Brute ATOs is pathetically poor.

The argument, as I understand it, is that if Tankers are the AT most suited for grabbing and holding aggro then having them deal damage to more targets simultaneously (via a bigger radius and Target Cap) helps them lock down aggro faster. The problem with that is AoE taunting is very limited mechanically. Currently you can only hold aggro on up to 17 enemies simultaneously. So when combined with punchvoke and your Taunt Aura a 16-target AoE is usually overkill, because a 10-target AoE will end up keeping the attention of the same (capped!) number of foes. Also, these days most non-Tanker "squishes" tend to be just fine at surviving the attention of minions (and often LTs) long enough to kill them. So often the only things that are really worth Taunting are Bosses and above. In my opinion the best way to achieve what the Devs appear to be going for here would be to: (I) Completely revoke all the changes to Cones and AoEs. Return the global radius/arc buff to Gauntlet the same as it is currently on Live. (ii) Implement the "Overcap" Damage Reduction mechanic for any targets hit above the regular caps (5 for cones, 10 for AoEs) using either a Single Exponential Reduction curve (so target 10 takes ~75% of the damage of target 9 which takes ~75% of the damage of target 8, etc) or a single flat reduction (so each Target takes ~50% damage). The exact figures can be tweaked over time to bring Tanker performance down to a roughly similar level as Brutes. This will allow the runaway extra damage dealt by Tanker AoEs when surrounded by targets to be reduced without impacting their regular performance, and affect damage from all sources including Procs. (iii) Raise the Tanker aggro limit. Going from 17 to something like 24-32 will help those higher target cap AoEs actually mean something for aggro control purposes. (iv) Give Brutes an ATO which actually affects their damage output and makes them more attractive to a team for damage purposes. Like "Each point of Fury grants an additional 0.5% damage buff, that applies not only to the Brute but also to any allies within 60ft" or "Brute punchvoke now applies a non-stacking damage resistance debuff of -10% for 5 seconds". Result? Tanker performance stays put for regular gameplay; but their AoE damage when surrounded by mobs (Farming, +4x8 runs, etc) is drastically reduced in exchange for becoming much better at holding the attention of a very large number of foes. Brute performance gets a slight increase when soloing and it becomes more beneficial for a team to bring a Brute along for raw damage output but a Tanker along for AoE aggro control.

Personally I think there are multiple problems with the Melee AT balance at the moment on Live. Tankers dealing too much AoE damage is definitely one of them. The global radius and target cap buffs that Tankers are currently getting; combined with the ease of attaining "enough survivability" (meaning they have more wiggle room that other ATs to buff their damage via offensive set bonuses and procs) means that an AoE-damage-focused Tanker can almost always blow an identically built Scrapper/Brute/Stalker out of the water. AoE damage output certainly has an impact on AE farming times, yes... but it also has an impact on any occasion where you're fighting more than 5-10 mobs simultaneously - which is most team content in CoX. (Nerfing Tankers is going to do naff all to Farmers - they'll just swap to a different AT and move on; never mind the fact that some of us have already been using ATs other than Tankers for ages...). So personally I fully accept that the current level of Tanker AoE damage needs reduced for the sake of balance... just not by quite this much! ATO performance disparity is the other biggie. Take ATOs away and a Brute and a Scrapper and a Stalker all become very similar in terms of damage output. However the Scrapper and Stalker ATOs are capable of adding so much additional damage output that Brutes are left in the dust. Tankers have one ATO that grants +DamageResistance and is still very useful without being damage-focused. Brute ATOs are hot garbage. Procs are definitely borked. PPM mechanics are both unintuitive and ridiculous (adding local recharge aspect is bad?!?) and should be nuked from orbit. But that's not unique to Melee ATs and so IMO is a battle for another day. Notably - Tankers are currently dealing too much AoE damage whether or not you include Proc effects - and the melee AT that is gaining the most benefit from procbombing their attacks is a Brute (due to their low base damage; plus Fury; they gain proportionally more from slotting their attacks with damage procs instead of for damage aspect!).

I still have at last one serial connector RS232 mouse from pre PS/2 days. (And a few stacks of floppy disks... not just the 3.5 inch size either...) 😓 My obsession with keeping working examples of "older tech" secreted away in various showboxes/drawers/etc does occasionally come in useful though. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to dig something out of the cache in order to get different bits of new "smarter tech" to work properly and/or talk to each other (because one didn't understand the other's flavour of Wireless Casting; or because an HDMI port decided it was going to refuse to work on Tuesdays) let alone stripping + resoldering old stereo/speaker bits.

AFAIK the only things that should be affecting Single Target damage (e.g. Pylon times) currently are the slight decreases to "damage buff" and "resistance debuff" scalars. Evolving Armor will be inflicting -9.975% resistance instead of -10.64% Hardened Carapace will be granting +21.875% damage instead of +25% Build Up will be granting +70% instead of +80% damage. ...and that's about it I think. So yeah, I'm not surprised the Pylon times are almost the same as before - I'm pretty sure that keeping Single Target damage as-is was one of the design goals here.

IIRC Power Crash's base arc is pretty big as it is (120 degrees?) so unless you're intentionally constantly trying to catch 6+ targets with it there won't be much difference there. Dark Obliteration (Soul Mastery) will be completely unaffected; so I suspect the only power you'd really notice a change in would be Whirling Hands. Hitting 10 Targets for full damage is going to be much worse than 16; even before you factor in the base damage decrease.

If you're asking honestly rather than tongue in cheek? Tankers mission completion times being ~30% slower than Brutes on Brainstorm would suggest that if what the Developers are intending is that Brutes and Tankers should be dealing comparable levels of damage in a regular mission like Galaxy Brain's Office Mission Simulator (albeit via the Tankers dealing less raw AoE damage but hitting more targets) then either Tankers need to be doing more damage or Brutes need to be doing less damage. And since the major effect of the proposed changes is to lower Tanker damage... then the obvious solution here is for them to not lower Tanker damage by quite as much they are right now. So lose (or reduce) either the radius changes or the overcap damage reduction changes. Personally I'd like to see Tankers have larger Cone Arcs again (without the base damage reduction) and for the "overcap" damage reductions to be made less harsh. But even just lowering the harshness of the overcap reductions from its current -67% to something a bit more reasonable would be helpful; IMO.

Taunt Auras are the same (e.g. Mag3 + 13.6 seconds duration) on a Scrapper as on a Brute. They just don't also trigger Punchvoke for the additional Mag4 effect; so Bosses (and additional enemies beyond the regular target cap) tend to ignore it. But then Bosses also tend to melt when a Scrapper (or Stalker) so much as looks at them funny; so there's that. I've AE farmed a fair bit on various /RA Scrappers at +4x8 and rarely have they had to spend time chasing after runners. The real trick's been the "staying upright"...

1000 times this. I did have a habit on Live of always keeping a full set of Warburg Nukes and a Fresh Shivan Shard on each + every toon "just in case" too. But ever since the P2W vendors arrived that's become a full set of Signature Summons and Envenomed Daggers. (Although I'll still make a trip to Bloody Bay occasionally...)

FWIW; whenever I was comparing like-for-like Tanker/Brute/Scrapper builds on Brainstorm earlier I did a few AE farming runs just for shiggles. My Brutes (mainly the /FA and /Stone; since Burn and Brimstone Armor Procs both love Fury) are a little bit ahead of my Tankers now. But Scrappers are still blowing them out of the water for cases where I didn't need 90% resistances + chugging insps and/or the occasional heal/barrier was good enough. So if nothing changes on Test... I suspect that if you're in a massive horde of mobs with constant full target saturation then Tankers and Brutes will be very roughly equal. But Scrappers will win if they (i) have a taunt aura and (ii) can stay upright.

Oh the set bonuses are fine, yeah. I was more referring to the Archetype-Specific bonus granted by the 6th IO in each set (the Proc/Global). Sentinels get a smidge of extra Opportunity and Absorb. Brutes get a smidge of extra Fury and Regen. Scrappers and Stalkers both get effects that produce character-redefining levels of additional damage output. ⚖️ 🙄

The Mastermind and Corruptor ones IMO perform well too; but they're not purely damage focused. Tankers, VEATs and Kheldians each get one really good one; and Controllers, Dominators and Blasters at least get a decent damage proc. Defenders can occasionally have a reason to take theirs for additional mitigation. But Sentinels and Brutes? Utter dogturd. And yes the fact that Scrapper and Stalker ones are so damn good makes it even more noticeable on Brutes.

For me the "most fun" melee powersets are currently Battleaxe, Superstrength (with Cross Punch) and Energy Melee... especially if you pair 'em with Fiery Aura or Rad Armor (yes; even after the nerfs to RA's proc damage on Brainstorm). Technically Stone Armor is disproportionately good on a Brute due to Fury affecting Brimstone armor Procs; but without Burn or Ground Zero it feels a bit meh even if the numbers tell a different story; so the only powerset I'd play actively with it would be BattleAxe. But it's tough for that combo to keep their Blue bar from bottoming out without Ageless. I do think that as things currently stand on Brainstorm; Brutes and Scrappers/Stalkers are very likely shortly going to be pulling ahead of Tankers again. But unfortunately until the sorry state of Brute ATOs gets rectified their damage output is still going to keep trailing noticeably behind the rest. So IMO unless you really need a 90% Resistance cap or Punchvoke; Scrappers (or at least those with an taunt aura from their secondary powerset) will become King of the Hill again for most melee outings.

The availability of high-end IOs and the general state of the game economy are great, IMO. Likewise the new Powersets (over and above what were available end-of-live and even from SCORE) are great too. I still run a private server based on the Ourodev i24 code with very minimal tweaks; because it was the easiest way for me to completely replicate my old characters from Live there and satisfy the nostalgia kick. But I play on Homecoming because it's fun. Sure, I see lots of imbalance across powersets and ATs and plenty of bugs that scream "easy fix" to me... and so I would often take a different direction or focus if it was me in charge of things. However it's important to remember that this is someone else's playground that we've been invited into. And it's a very decent and well maintained playground.

"Best in slot" is a bit of a misleading idea in CoH - in most other MMORPGs there are a small number of fixed equipment slots that are always in the same spot and so folk can work out what the best thing is to put there (at least for each given goal/activity). In CoH you can choose your Power selection and Enhancement slots layout; and when you throw in the effect of various (also customisable) global buffs and set bonuses there's several orders of magnitude more complexity involved. So IMO building a min/maxed character in those other MMOs is like figuring out how to boil a pot of water as quickly as possible... whereas doing so in CoH is more like perfecting a favourite recipe - you first need to have an idea of exactly what sort of taste you're going for; then try to bring out as much of that particular flavour as possible. All that said; here's what I'm using. It's a good balance of survivability plus obscenely high damage output: Mastermind - Mercs - Marine.mbd Would I recommend Mercs/Marine for AE Fire farming? Hell no. AE Farming requires Softcapped Defenses and decent Healing and Resists (Mercs has the latter, but not the former) plus good AoE damage vs level 54 foes (Mercs has a fair amount of AoE damage... but it's spread over all of the summons. The T1 and T2 summons spawn at -2 and -1 to your level; which means that even with a T4 Alpha Slot level 54 foes will be +5 and +4 to them - taking much less damage from those AoE abilities). PLus, you can't chug insps to cap your damage - because that damage is being spread over your henchmen so they'd all need separate red insps running unless you're a /Kin. If you want to AE Farm with a MM; then my advice is (i) "Don't." and (ii) "If you really really have to; then use Bots/ and fight foes that deal Cold or Psychic damage." Robotics is the only MM primary that's ever been worth a damn for AoE damage vs +4s because so much of its AoE capability comes from the T3 pet and its Incendiary Missile Burn Patch Psuedopets; and this is still the case even after the stacking of those patches was nerfed to high heaven a few pages ago. It's also the only MM Primary that can softcap its own Defenses regardless of your Secondary powerset (via Protector Bot Bubbles + Barrier or Radial Clarion + the Aura IOs + Maneuvers). If all you're looking for is a buffbot to follow your Tanker or Brute whilst that Tanker or Brute farms... then my advice is (i) "Don't." and (ii) "If you really really have to; then get an Illusion/Cold Domination Controller." It's a lot more efficient to Active Farm on one account whilst you use your second (and third) account to AFK farm on another separate map. Bringing another toon along on an Active Farm as a buffbot is largely pointless; because you should be capping your own damage anyway (by using a macro to combine inspirations into Reds and chug them as you go) and you shouldn't have any need for additional healing or survivability on a well-built Tanker, Brute or Scrapper (or even some Dominators/Blasters!). Illusion Controllers can leverage Phantom Army to group up more foes (bypassing the regular aggro cap) which makes them a little bit less useless than most... and Cold Dom can increase the Defenses, Fire Resistances and Maximum HP of your main toon if their survivability is lacking (e.g. the build isn't quite fleshed out yet). Disclaimer: I have AE farmed on MMs, very extensively, as a Robotics/Kinetics/Flame vs custom Cold-damage foes on the Asteroid maps. It's possible to drag a melee toon around to assist with the herding; but it doesn't work well in practice (taunt auras work great... if you're only fighting 17 foes at a time). The only other second-account toon that I still occasionally bring on these farms "for fun" is a Crabbermind VEAT; because its AoE attacks with -Res buffs and its Defense Buffs are useful and its disposable summons each have their own aggro cap and can't take orders; so it loses less from me not being "behind the wheel". It's utterly hilarious but not exactly the most efficient.

TBF the Catch of the Day has arrived on Brainstorm

Quick 1st attempt at this; variant times in ORANGE. EnergyMelee/RadArmor Scrapper BRAINSTORM #2: 5:14 TANKER RUN: 8:26 [+61.1% - this may be a bit higher than usual due to the build being very ST Burst damage focused, with only Whirling Hands plus RA's GZ/RT for AoE] BattleAxe/FieryAura Brute BRAINSTORM: 5:16 TANKER RUN: 6:51 [+30.1%] BioArmor/Staff Tanker BRAINSTORM: 7:18 BRUTE RUN: 5:54 [so the Tanker is +23.7% - this may be lower than usual due to the build's attack chain having a large amount of AoE plus IC's bugged Arc on Brainstorm] RadMelee/StoneArmor Brute (The slower-than-usual "AFK AE Farmer" build) BRAINSTORM: 6:21 TANKER RUN: 8:08 [+28.1%] It looks like in general the Tankers are coming in ~30% slower than the Brutes. The Staff Fighting powerset is skewed a bit; but that set has an AoE and two decent Cones, one of which is currently bugged on Brainstorm and is still considerably wider on Tankers (Innocuous Strikes) which is allowing the Tanker to consistently hit more targets. However it's worth noting that despite the buff to Sky Splitter on Brainstorm; Staff is still very light in terms of Burst Single Target damage - it's taking these two Staff toons a lot longer than the other powersets to kill the Elite Boss at the end of the mission; but it's not bad in terms of non-burst AoE damage. Providing its Cone Arcs are wide enough to actually hit things. The EM/RadArmor Scrapper is far faster than its Tanker variant. However that Scrapper is very Single Target burst damage focused. On Live; even without an active Hybrid running or Judgement nukes the Scrapper's Whirling Hands + Ground Zero + Radiation Therapy are able to whittle down the minions/LTs whilst it uses its ST attacks only on the bosses. However on Brainstorm; with the nerfs to GZ and RT this is no longer quite able to kill off the LTs so there's a bit of extra time spent mopping them up and/or dragging them into the next spawn. But it's still consistently able to three-shot the Elite Boss at the end of the mission. The Tanker simply cannot keep up with that level of Single Target damage; and there is very little opportunity for its increased AoE range to matter. The "overcap" mechanic appears to be completely negating any benefit the Tanker might be seeing from a higher Target Cap on Whirling Hands. Also... "playstyle" is probably going to be a big factor here for comparing the results of different players in the Mission Simulator. So for full disclosure: Personally I tend to leap into one enemy group; fire off an AoE; then begin whacking bosses, rotating myself around my currently-targetted Boss to ensure my Cone attacks hit other nearby enemies. Then whenever that group's minions are dead I'll jump into the next group; dragging any remaining LTs and Bosses with me whilst taking ranged potshots at whatever boss I still have targeted. That way my AoEs and Cones are usually able to catch a fair number of foes rather than getting "wasted" on just one target. However in an office map; at the end of each floor I'll pause and mop up any remaining foes before calling the elevator.

Right, throwing a few test times in for some toons I have on Live that will be affected by "Nerfs" this page: These are endgame fully IO-ed builds; min-maxxed for regular gameplay rather than for a specific task like 4-star content or pylon soloing or farming. Galaxy Brain's Office Mission Simulator at +4/x8 with Bosses enabled. Musculature Alpha, Reactive Interface, and Assault Hybrid. No active usage of Incarnates. Average of 3 runs; after a "test run" on each toon first to get my bearings. EnergyMelee/RadArmor Scrapper LIVE: 4:43 BRAINSTORM: 5:32 (This toon was hit harshly by the nerfs to Ground Zero and Radiation Therapy - RT in particular is inflicting a LOT less damage in regular missions) BRAINSTORM #2: 5:14 (Redo using tweaked Radiation Therapy slotting for Healing Aspect + Damage Aspect + 2x Procs instead of Live's Healing Aspect + 4x Procs) BattleAxe/FieryAura Brute LIVE: 5:13 BRAINSTORM: 5:16 (Axe Cyclone's cast time increase is being offset by increased proc activation rate - the resisted pull distance is annoying but has no bearing on performance) BioArmor/Staff Tanker LIVE: 5:59 BRAINSTORM: 7:18 (Obvious Tanker nerfs here. Slightly offset by the buff to Sky Splitter and the fact that Innocuous Strikes is currently bugged with a 135 degree Cone) RadMelee/StoneArmor Brute ("AFK AE Farmer" build so INTENTIONALLY SLOWER THAN A REGULAR BRUTE when playing actively/normally - included here as a "control") LIVE: 6:19 BRAINSTORM: 6:21 (No obvious change here and negligible variation in clear times) I'll see if I can spin up some different Tanker-and-non-Tanker variants on Brainstorm at the weekend for a more like-for-like comparison.

Agreed. Less "ticks" before the boom please.

In case anyone's missed it - there are a few lingering bugs with Innocuous Strikes and Guarded Spin that should be reverted next patch. Brainstorm vs Live: - - - - - - - - - - Now... I have a request based on how the Staff Fighting powerset appears to be currently sitting after all of the above changes: The Staff Fighting powerset is consistently a standout underperformer across the board in terms of damage output; as shown in virtually every single melee powerset comparison thread - typically the only powerset than performs worse is Kinetic Melee. Staff's performance was previously propped up a bit on Tankers because their Global Arc and Radius increases from Gauntlet disproportionally affected it - the Arc size of Guarded Spin and Innocuous Strikes and the Radius of Eye of the Storm were all buffed... but even then Staff still came in well below average in a standard mission like Trapdoor. The long animation times of Staff attacks and the lack of "Build Up" make thematic sense; but they also drastically negatively impact its performance when compared to most other melee powersets. Whilst the set provides a lot of utility via Guarded Spin and perfection stacks granting additional useful effects like Damage Resistance buffs and debuffs; unfortunately this does not make up for its severe lack of damage output - especially its short-term "burst" capability (which is what is useful in quickly taking out problematic enemies or grabbing aggro). The recent tweaks to Sky Splitter (adding a decent chunk of extra damage when under 3 Perfection stacks) have partially addressed Staff's lack of Single Target Burst damage and are much appreciated. But there were only very minor changes to Eye of the Storm's damage so Staff's AoE coverage and Burst damage is still well below par. Therefore... would there be any chance of working a small +Radius/+Arc global buff into "Staff Mastery" in order to grant both Guarded Spin and Innocuous Strikes an increased arc; and Eye of the Storm an increased radius across all ATs without reducing their base damage? IMO that would be the easiest and most balanced route to take here and it also makes conceptual sense for a powerset with a long melee weapon to have a slight additional "reach".

Thanks. My bad on Sweeping Cross - obviously I was so blinkered on Tanker (and Staff!) changes that I missed the Street Justice one! FWIW; as it stands currently on Brainstorm the current state of Innocuous Strikes with the increased arc and almost the same damage seems to be propping up Staff Fighting's overall damage output a fair bit. Since Staff is consistently a standout underperformer across the board in terms of damage output and the recent tweaks to Sky Splitter have partially addressed its ST Burst; it probably makes sense to bump its AoE coverage a bit. So would there be any chance of working a small +Radius/+Arc global buff into Staff Mastery to allow both Guarded Spin and Innocuous Strikes to have an increased arc; and Eye of the Storm to have an increased radius across all ATs? I'll add the request into the Focused Feedback thread; but thought it was worth mentioning here as well given the context + for visibility.