Pherdnut

Thanks all. Particularly looking forward to seeing my ranged MM minions in action this weekend. Psyched about the new set.

Stars in Shadow is the first 5x game to scratch the MOO itch for me. Lots of similarities but they made some really good moves like streamlining planetary build-up and hardpoint-based ship design. It currently feels like a complete game but they continue to update (slowy - 2-person dev team) and I believe they're planning another DLC expansion for this year. Master of Magic and MOO2 are both available on steam with a bunch of community patches. MoM even has a new-content version. MoM to this day is one of the most brilliantly designed strategy games ever made IMO. The layering of magic, wizard, starting race choices all come together for a ton of variety and fun combos to try on. Pretty much all of the X-Coms have had a ton of replay value for me. I've sunk a lot of hours into Project Zomboid in recent years. Sort of a sims meets survival horror sandbox game. It's been in active development for 10 years. They plan on adding NPCs eventually but the number of complex systems plugged into the game definitely feel like there's 10 years of work in it. Cars in particular are kind of insane for all the parts you can upgrade/replace/break, etc. Most games are all about getting over the initial looting for what you need without dying hump, building up a proper safehouse with crops, some kind of water plan, an escape strategy, and then getting bored and reckless and getting killed while trying to find that one missing trainer book for a crafting skill-level you didn't really need. Fortunately, starting over is a lot of fun. There's also peer to peer multiplayer, which I haven't tried yet.

Demons / Miasma makes a pretty good argument. Smorgasbord of damage types. Lots of sources of slow. Complimentary Damage resist reduction powers. Stupid-powerful group heal/enemy-nerf combo power. Definitely one of my strongest and most-vesatile soloers.

Haven't played since... August? That's a lot of patch notes.

Beasts can hit hard though. All you really need defensively is a hold.

I just ran two MSRs today, Suzy Jenkins on Everlasting is my main toon, and as an MM people seemed happy enough. Granted, my secondary is Dark Miasma which is stupid useful no matter where you go. But it probably shouldn't be surprising that when you have a massive group activity, MMs are great for all the stuff they can do to soup up their buddies, regardless of whether the buddies were summoned or just showed up. Edit: I do recommend not summoning your tier 1s. They are typically too squishy for MSRs.

WTF!? Who is this guy? We're not running a farm here. Why are you running ahead of the group to such an extreme that there's actually like a line of triangles behind you depicting people dealing with the aftermath? If there are subgroups behind you dealing with your BS, that is not a tank, or a scrapper, or a brute, that is an a-hole. Kindly stick to solo if you want to play in this manner. You are not acting in the spirit of CoH. You offend me. I think you should feel like a jerk if you really thought about it. But if you played as MM, it would train you. You can't just run away from your guys and expect them to live. Stop being a jackass. Play an MM. THEN play a melee lead in a group.

Yeah it's kind of silly when the attacks don't have secondary effects. Whips and birds/bees are worth the end pain. Thugs I just took pool attacks. Ideally you're buffing/debuffing as much as attacking though, which is generally more efficient end-wise.

Dark has 3 sources of -ToHit not counting all the powers with considerable amounts of -ToHit the Dark Servant spams. Fearsome Stare, also hits with the 11.25 base -ToHit that Darkest Night does for MMs. If they aren't rendered useless or are immediately unfeared by steamrolling teammates, they're still out quite a lot of ToHit with socketing. My Darkest is over -17 without Intution. With the rare intution with the best -ToHit boost, it's almost -20 so you can probably get well over -20 for shaving 12% off the damage buff if you're coming from the 45% musculature with the Very Rare version. Intuition also gives a nice 20% range boost, extending the cone to 84 feet from 70. And of course Twilight's relatively dinky single-target -ToHit/-dam/-regen that gets regular use for the rather nice mass heal. With the Dark Servant in play, the amount of -ToHit you can focus on a boss or AV is absolutely disgusting but -20 is a good start IMO.

Turn your XP on. It's needed for veteran levels and doesn't help your inf gain (read the little ? text). You get a ton of free threads for most of the levels up to 10. And emp merits drop every 3 vet levels up to 99. Quite a lot early on. And all of you, stop fussing. If you have the shards you need for alpha slots, use them. If you don't, use threads. Don't build notices unless you have a butt ton of money anyway. They can drop on iTrials though, which is probably the better way to acquire them. But mostly if you don't have shards or the inf just use freakin' threads and mostly emp merits for the rare and very rare components. You can always go back and use shards for other alphas as you acquire more. Solo, you can repeat the Burdens of the Past arc for a chance at a choice of uncommon to very rare thread piece (mostly common/uncommon - seen a few rares, 1 very rare). You also get a random drop (not sure how high that can go - but mostly common and IIRC uncommon sometimes). I can roll through it in about 15-20 minutes or more like 30 if I stop to kill all those Tsoo to keep the veteran levels rolling which is definitely worth it up to 10, but I like alternating with MSRs and rushing Burdens after that. But stop with the hand-wringing over emp inf/merit value such that you end up taking like 20 times longer to get your incarnates built waiting for stuff to drop randomly. They're awesome. Worth every merit you could have had. If you have the means to move your incarnates forward, do so with whatever you have. My main has multiple tier 4s in several categories and she's not done making all the incarnates she'd like to try yet. When she wants cash, she crafts/converts for it. Plenty of purple sets and ATOs for the 30+ alts to go around. So cut the crap and build your incarnates already.

I'd go for Dark/Ice for the holds and the heavy -recharge synergy. Dark has two holds of its own, one from the servant, which starts to count when the adds are gone. You'll be locking down left and right with that many holds. Howling does -50% recharge for MMs. I'm sure it's not less for defenders. That combined with the ice attacks is going to drop their attack rate hard. Dark/dark has a nice synergy in the two area stuns. I'm not sure whether the -ToHit is more synergy or redundant as Miasma has plenty of -ToHit between you and the servant. Controllers are kings at the mass lockdown. They don't have a monopoly on AV lockdowns or stopping runners. I'd also check stats between corruptor and defender. I'm not sure how much defenders add to Miasma.

I'm surprised there aren't more mentions of Dark. A great mass heal with -50% regen that the servant can also use. Lots of teeth-pulling debuffs, particularly -ToHit and big -damage. Holds from you and the servant (only need one more for most AVs). A cone of fear to render adds useless. Then between Tarpatch and Howling, 2 area slows, -50% recharge, -30 res, -500% regen, a mass stun, a weak and pointless target fear, and a dash of mass dark-energy damage that really just serves to add another to a very long list of sets you can slot into Howling. Oh, and a mass rez that will never rez anybody because they always get clobbered/rezzed on cooldown. But one of the best features of Miasma for AV soloing is Darkest Night from both you and the servant. It's end-expensive but it turns AVs into kittens. Oh and the stealth/res/universal defense aura helps I guess.

Either look for or start radio missions in Talos. That's probably the best bet for grouping up which is the best way to get XP. There's not really a go-to for 20-30 so people tend to jump for 20-30ish radio group. First Ward is one of the cooler story areas and actually pretty good for solo-leveling, which I've never done with a defender so not sure how fast that would move. Anyway, there's lots of shorter 3-mission arcs, some of which drop a ton of completion XP and 9 merits a pop. Also, people often form mission groups for FW. On the getting clobbered problem, if you haven't yet, 22 is a great time to fill out your enhancement slots with crafted vanilla IOs. They're still pretty cheap to craft at that point and strong enough to keep using for another ten levels or so. If you have merits built up, you can sell converters for about 100k a pop - 300k a merit. I haven't run a defender but having an alt build slotted for damage might be the way to go for solo. The workbench IOs are cheap enough to maintain two builds if you craft them.

Bring an MM buddy. We're always happy to help fight spam with spam. I did see a spectacular number of mobs in what by all appearances was a couple of vanilla praetoria syndicate mission a few weeks ago. The newer player I was helping out said he hadn't touched difficulty settings. An exemplared 40-something at least MM shouldn't have to run away and guerrilla a less-than-20 mission to get through it.

@Plainguy, I thought we were talking about viable though, not perception, but I agree with a lot of your points to that end. I'd just rather have a convo about all the ways a whips-only demon MM can actually get through challenging content at least slowly. 'Cuz that's how we learn new stuff about MMs from each other. IMO, any group leader that knows Miasma, should be as excited to hear about that as they are kin, regardless of what kind of foolishness was visited on whatever other set a player might have. Mostly I'm curious to hear what other secondaries might work for whips-only MM that actually synergize with the OP's mission which I think is whipping the crap out of stuff without totally sucking(?) Sonic's probably a good one for demons I think but without minions it loses one of its sources of -res and any buffs you select are no good for you while soloing. Still, an almost universal res bubble with a -res debuff, protection from the most annoying CC, and a whole lot of picks left over for pool powers... that could be an interesting if not the best possible choice.

They don't have big AoE but they all have plenty of it. 5 breath attacks, a 130 degree 60ft arc from the prince, a 10 and a 15 radius ranged attack, a persistent Aura and a PBAoE. And a whip attack. Also consider 6 sources.

Okay but now imagine the enemy is some combination of mass-stunned, area slowed twice, -recharged 50%, -damaged, -ToHit, mass-feared -ToHitted again, -res 30-58%, -regenned at 50-550%, and everybody is getting a regular 420+ mass heal as you regularly spam the -ToHit -50% regen debuff on a short recharge, because 30+ def is pretty good when the enemy is debuffed to the nine hells.

They're all viable and people tend to be quick to judge primaries before leveling very far which is a mistake with MMs. New pet tiers and the second upgrade are major improvements for all MMs. In order of ones I have the most experience with Demons - versatility - pet debuffs/CC - built-in -res * They're pretty tough - definitely not as many squishy tier 1 phases * Every whip strike does 9.? -res and about half of the two ember demon attacks (2 ranged, 1 cone each do 15-20 -res) - they all last only a few seconds but they add up * Each whip takes a different offensive set - handy for slotting purples * Lots of CC/debuff - a sleep (probably not worth mentioning since the AoE wrecks it), a hold, and all but 1 attack for each of the two ice demons do slow and -recharge * They don't have big AoE but they have an awful lot of it with every demon getting a cone attack (130 arc/60ft for the Tier 3), a couple ranged 10-15s, PBAoE, and a persistent damage aura. * Lethal, ice, fire and toxic damage * Tons of toxic and fire dots * Excellent support pet with single-demon heal, mass heal, and ember shield, which provides res in a bunch of categories and is doubled for you and the support demon * The buff/imp spawning power gives you an extra slot to dump MM set auras into - great for slotting flexibility * I like their AI - they tend to throw down all their ranged first (there's quite a bit of it) and then move in closer for their melee attacks. It's nice and predictable and the pack tends to stay nice and tight for supremacy without the need for giving move orders. I mostly control by setting targeting or setting defense mode * Amazing synergies with Dark Miasma which adds a ton more debuffs including -regen, amazing heal, another pet, and combines pet/you holds for AV-holding potential * Defensive diversity - it matters less in the late game but in particularly challenging areas, often a couple demons gets squishy while the rest stay tough - IMO preferable to all of your guys having the same achilles' heel * Nice -res stacking with any -res secodary - IIRC sonic, traps, heat, ice, storm(?) - great for AV killing with any strong -regen set with all the -recharge Bots - toughness, big AoE * IMO 2/3 nonessential MM attacks - good for late game respeccing to pool power flexbility * They start out sturdy, then protect bot bubbles make them sturdier * Primarily energy damage but some powerful variety coming from Assault Bot * Protect bots also heal other bots * There's a 100% bot heal * Huge area AoE from the Assault Bot * Quite survivable regardless of secondary but superb tanking potential with Traps, FF, and maybe Sonic for a strong resists/def combo Beasts - Damage (crits), speedy, mostly melee, pretty tough at tier 3 and second upgrade * Highly underestimated - fortitude for crits, the tier 3 and the 2nd upgrade are orders of magnitude improvements to the set * Popular theme choice, storm, might not be the best choice - melee-heavy needs heals, defensive buff, or defensive debuff support IMO* Most attacks are melee and they're really fast. Nice synergy with aura debuffs from Sonic or Poison * They get crits around mid-game. No joke. * You also crit and the rate gets pretty crazy - Made a new toon "Birdspam" to see where I can take this * Some nice debuffs on the MM attacks - helps to spread them around early on * Keep that third wolf alive. It's a big source of buffs. * The rep for accidental aggro is on bad MMing - speed is good - learn to use heel when they're getting pulled or use defensive stance after setting the last target in a fight to keep them from picking new targets Necro - Butt-tons of CC/debuffs - strong MM attacks -slow-as-!@#$-tier 1s * Another strong Miasma synergy for lots of combined CC/debuffs, but I had to go with Kin to mitigate that tier 1 speed * More than any other MM, IMO, they truly hit an order of magnitude with every new tier of pet and upgrade * MM's attacks are among the strongest and -ToHit debuff, which is critical early on for survival - spread it around until zombies get tougher * The CC makes the primary set alone quite survivable once you're at 2nd upgrade. As flexible as bots for secondary pairing IMO - might want teleport friend on a very short interrupt/recharge if you don't go kin though Ninjas - Great DPS, speedy, glass jaws * IMO, nonessential MM attacks - frees up more space for pool powers * Huge damage bump from tier 2s, which gives them some heavy DPS earlier than most * Great with a strong defensive secondary * Or maybe embrace their strengths and try Kin. Saw a toon on Everlasting "Humble Shu" IIRC absolutely mad-murdering everything insanely fast on a PI radio mission with that combo - I assume kin doesn't beef up recharge for pets but closing that much more quickly seemed to make for really quick mob kills Mercs - Range/AoE - not super-far with these guys yet - but most-frequently stated least-favorite along with beasts - still fun/viable in my book * IMO, nonessential MM attacks - frees up more space for pool powers * Great range for focused opening attacks - they alpha quite nicely and do it from far away. * Weak on damage types - smashing/lethal only- I suspect -res helps them more than most * Least favorite range/melee dynamic/AI, some mostly stay ranged while others rush up and melee spreading them all over the place - move micro is probably more important with this primary than others * Good heals or defensive buffs/debuffs might make the early to mid game easier - squishiest squishy tier 1 phase yet, for me - medic has terrible triage skills with that single-heal power Thugs - Well-liked for (I gather - mine are still lowbies) toughness, DPS, damage versatility, GANG WAR * IMO, nonessential MM attacks - frees up more space for pool powers * Like Demons, has an additional power that takes pet set pieces

Why do you have to be defense capped for it be viable?

Well the confusing part is that you mention other people's ideas but not sure what it is about those ideas that you like. So... How do you want to play an MM and how can we help with that? Fun is good. What's fun for you?

Just make sure all whips can hit in less than 10 seconds eventually to keep all that -res stacked. It's like -28ish from the whips. Whips with hasten and possibly just solid global recharge can keep you attacking without pause in the end game. I second Miasma as one of the strongest choices. Tarpatch has another -30 res to stack with your whips. The only thing it doesn't do for you is give you the CC protection that FF, Sonic, or Traps would but you can mitigate with break frees and of course, held, mass-feared, mass-stunned enemies throw no CC. It also has an excellent heal linked to a ToHit/-regen debuff with a short recharge. Gets about half my healthbar even though it's a mass heal. Without the ember shield, you should probably focus on getting universal defense up as high as you can even though MMs get screwed on Leadership auras. Two obstacles to overcome will be weak CC protect against all but fear and the endurance cost of the whips and the critical but pretty expensive end/second powers in Miasma. I'd probably go speed for hasten, jumping for travel and CJ's def bonus, leadership for at least Maneuvers and Tactics even though MMs get screwed on these, and fighting for smash/lethal resists and the additional def bonus. It might be worth maxing out fighting for crosspunch. Keeping that in the mix for an occasional 6 seconds of 100% recharge could get powerful abilities like Howling Twilight off cooldown a lot faster. For the epic, I think Fire's the way to go. KB to KD in bonfire makes your not-awesome defenses a moot point against most mobs. And of course having another hold and an excellent self res could be really helpful. Fireball with 6 slots probably isn't terrible either. Traps is probably also a pretty strong choice, but stronger CC/debuff, with a great heal, and a decent defensive/stealth aura feels like the way to go with this one.

I noticed recently I wasn't getting anything from my pets when I activated hybrid assault. No stacks in their buff trays and no reports of doublehits in combat logs when I used the other version. To get it working right, you have to summon while hybrid assault is active. After that it seems to work properly on repeat casting. If you have to resummon a pet after that though, you once again have to do it while they hybrid is active for the power to work for that pet. The DoubleHit version seems like the way to go to me. It's close to double damage and it seems to hit more than half the time with no buildup to optimal damage.

This may be more of a bad description issue. It's not that the effect doubles for pets. It's halved for your MM, which seems kind of weak, considering other hybrids are at full strength for MM and pets.

Been experimenting some more. It seems like after you summon while active one time, it works fine after that.

Yet another bummer for MMs. Discovered this after discovering hybrid assault only works if you resummon while it's active. Support definitely works but I'm not seeing a doubling of any stat for pets as per the description. Checked on a Demon/Miasma MM via pet combat attributes.