oldskool

You know you mentioned the Psi Melee before when you responded to me, and Psi's mechanics as being something unique just didn't click with me. I haven't really given Psi much a look other than just browsing the animations to see if it interested me. Your perspective makes a lot more sense now with some context. Side note, how do you like Psi?

You'd think that was the case, but it is a bit silly (and I don't take your statement as you being serious either). Anyway... I feel QS has value, but you obviously seem to understand Focused Burst is a DPA difference not in your favor. If that is your preference, then go for it. If you enhance up with your attack chain you're going to be stomping goons left and right. No, it probably won't win you the fastest time on a Plyon test with FB in the rotation, but that doesn't mean it will be "bad". I mean, Moonbeam going to hit like a truck, so do it?

If you're basing this on Pine's, then please note it is inaccurate for Sentinels. Not just damage, but entire powers* within sets as well as some secondary effects of other powersets are misleading/entirely wrong**. *Refractor Beam in Sentinel Beam Rifle still flags it as a Snipe, that it takes Snipe sets, it's damage is as high as it is (in Pine's), etc... In reality, Refractor Beam is a chaining AoE and has lower damage than a snipe (but benefits massively from Disintegrate). **Dark Blast in Dark Blast shows the duration is 15 seconds. For what, I have no idea. The to hit debuff lasts 6 seconds in reality. The duration on Abyssal Gaze is "5 seconds". On what? I have no idea either. The hold lasts just over 3 seconds. The to hit debuff lasts 10 seconds which is the same as everything else in the set that is not the Tier 1 or Tier 9. Blackstar does in fact last 20 seconds and does in fact impose -35% to hit. My test DB/Regen refreshes Blackstar every 26 seconds.

Maybe your expectations at level 25 are still a little high? I don't me to sound snarky, but endurance requires management for awhile. Accuracy is also going to be the bane of your existence as every whiff sucks off endurance but prolongs combat. What are you doing for attacks? Can you pace yourself a little to conserve some energy? I often hold back while leveling up unless I have inspirations or buffs to fall back on. I see no reason to dump all your end on trivial fights either. Once your character is fleshed out with IO's, by all means go ham all the things, but until then maybe slow down?

This checks a lot of anime boxes... Ninjutsu arts? Check Impractically large weapon? Check Cat girl costume....? Cheeeeck? All kidding aside, that build idea looks awesome and fun!

I can see where you would assume that is what I was thinking. I'm not basing a judgment based on Assault itself. In other words, I'm saying moving a power from 82 damage per activation to 90 damage per activation is the threshold of where "acceptance" is. Or we add 3 more damage to a 30 damage T1 power and so on. I realize the damage adds up once all attacks considered are enhanced, but that value isn't going to be an earth shattering metric. If 10% is all it would take to make more people think the damage was acceptable, then the hyperbolic arguments about current performance seem even more absurd. (Not accusing anyone specifically, but the overall gauge of community feedback around the "Sentinels SUCK" --- but if they did 10% more damage it'd be good. Give me a break.)

10% base damage isn't a lot. I spun up a character, gave them Assault (10.5%), and took a look at the numbers. If that is all it would take to make them more "acceptable", then their actual damage isn't that bad. Especially not when you consider just how easy it is to make an attack chain. I'd love a damage boost, but damage isn't my concern with the AT. I do think the defense value needs to be moved from 0.7 to 0.75. Their damage being what it is doesn't justify the lower across the board defense when that same modifier also applies to things like Mezz resistance. Minor annoyance, but I'd like to see it reviewed if it hasn't been. The big issue though, is Opportunity. Not just what it provides, but how it is triggered. I've played 4 Sentinels so far. They are very fun. However, I find some Sentinels do want to keep their Tier 1 and Tier 2 in their rotation from start to finish. Dual Pistols is one of those sets. Pistols and Dual Wield DPA are good enough when using Incendiary Ammo that their attack rotation doesn't vary from other AT's. Suppressive Fire gains no damage from the ammo toggles. It loses ground the more you build up your character. This means my attack chain includes both triggers (heh) to Opportunity. If I want to use Offensive but I've just clicked Pistols when the circle comes up, then I have to decide to skip Dual Wield for a moment. I either eat the gap, or I use Suppressive Fire. With high levels of recharge, Pistols recharges so fast that gap isn't as obnoxious as it sounds, but it is cumbersome prior to that. I'd much rather have two buttons not tied to my attacks to activate the inherent or something else. And the attack routine issue comes up in Dark Blast and Assault Rifle too. Both of those sets have 2 good DPA Tier 1 and 2 attacks that cycle with 2 other attacks. It takes more recharge than is practical for most players to get to a point where you can completely drop that. My Beam Rifle Sentinel is very different though. Once you more of the set you can largely ignore Single Shot and Charged Shot in favor of everything else. I keep them to activate which ever Opportunity I want. However, I'd love the option to completely drop one in favor of something else. I can already do that, but that means I have to ignore the situational value I find in DefensiveO over the more common value I find in OffensiveO.

My pre-edit reply went into opportunity costs vs spending and planning as purpose built vs common occurrence. I've been doing risk management for years and weighing cost benefit analyst is so second nature I apply it to games too. When I play around with builds, I look for what I feel is "just enough" for whatever content I want to push with a build. I love to plan long-term, but I also don't sweat things like "optimization" much. A lot of returning players and new ones look over various threads like ones on this forum. I find it important to stress that the constant optimization they see isn't required, it's fun for some to come up with, but it isn't necessary. This is also a team game. Groups can, and often do, close gaps in whatever build weakness an individual has. You can't guarantee a "perfect" team, but most teams where the players are awake while doing content is still going to work out. I used to post on the old forums, but that was pre-issue 6 stuff. I was pretty chatty about Dark/Dark Scrappers back then since they were rare and often denigrated for their existence. Even after I stopped actively posting I kept on it and read your posts quite a bit. They were always insightful. I'm just bouncing the same ideas at this point which is kinda off topic now, but we're in agreement here.

Honestly people can take either Initial Strike or Heavy Blow and be fine. I think StrikerFox has a build that uses Initial Strike over Heavy Blow in the Pylon thread, but I don't want to speak for him. Me personally, I took everything except for Placate on Street Justice. Heavy Blow is useful while leveling up and can be a useful mule later. It just depends on what your preferences are. I haven't tried /Rad on Stalkers but at a glance it doesn't look too different from my Brute (which I skipped nothing on). I feel dirty even considering suggesting someone skip Ground Zero.

My original goal was addressing normal content. Additionally, the person I was responding to was asking if it was worth it to shoot for 60% in order to avoid cascading defense failure. Anyway... The points you bring up about having some buffer are obviously good ones. However, I want to point out something about Sentinels that further supports an idea of maybe going for a buffer. Sentinels have lower values to their defenses, their resistances, and their protections. All of it. That means Sentinel DDR is less than that of Scrapper SR DDR. After thinking about it, I decided to check and sure enough the DDR is less on Sentinel toggles and passives. This means Sentinels are going to be more open to defense debuffs than their melee counterparts if they are in the unfortunate position of being pounded on by multiple defense debuffing enemies. Sentinels have an advantage of range to leverage their offense making stuff like Hover valuable if you are concerned about it. That might help against the Cimos in ITF but any other gun enemies will still be annoying. So after thinking about, Sentinels should build for as much defense as they are comfortable with and certainly plan for buffering their values a little to make up for the shortcomings of the AT. That is, if a given player finds value in that pursuit over other potential effects or build goals. Anyway, nice to see you chime in, Arcana! Can I call you Arcana? :)

All of them can work. Also, try not to gauge the potential of a any AT on just dual origins. Endurance is going to be a struggle until you can socket higher quality enhancements in Stamina at 22+. This always true of very active sets. It wouldn't hurt to put an endurance reduction in your attacks either. Actively using Assassin's Staff will chew through your blue bar pretty quick. I'm fond of defense sets for PvE gameplay, but if you want to PvP at all consider a resistance set. Super Reflexes is tried and true. It is very solid. You don't need defense benefit from Guarded Spin but it will help you out in the low levels. Energy Aura is also good and it has a lot of endurance management down the road. My Staff Stalker uses Ninjutsu, but that is mostly because I wanted it. As to Bio Armor, it is also an option if you like. It requires more investment than anyone honestly gives it credit and the entire gimmick of stance dancing goes the way of the dinosaur outside of the low levels. Once you shore up the endurance issues and survival issues you'll more than likely remain in the offensive mode 24/7. Anyway, for less of a headache in both expense and general gameplay Super Reflexes or Energy Aura are something I'd recommend. As to Serpent's Reach, take it. It's better than this thread was giving it credit.

I suspected that would still be the case, but I'm really thankful of you posting some results. I rolled up a KM/SR on test too and I was messing around with. I was mostly trying to gauge if the new ATO brought any value back to CS and if I wanted to keep it around for the occasional Placate + CS lulz. Even with casual testing that was not turning out to be the case, and I'm also really glad you retested with Body Blow. It's absence was making me scratch my head since BB and SB were bread and butter for the old live attack chain. I'll still keep CS and I'll keep it muling that ATO build-up proc if it is truly global. I might try some other tests with it to confirm, but that may not happen until the weekend. Anyway, thanks again for posting the results!

I wish that is how it worked. How awesome would it be to put only 1 even level SO quality enhancement into a power and have it max out functionality? That's not how it works though. If you turn off Focused Senses and Agile, then your defense value is a big donut... 0. When you turn them on, your defense value becomes whatever you enhanced it to. Which in the above case is 22.5% (in reality the even level SO value is 21.8%). You need to add more defense by both enhancing the power further and from other sources like IO set bonuses, other pool powers, etc in order to fill out that defense to 45%.

One thing I'd like clarity on is if it's worth it to go over that 45% value to ward against -Def debuffs? So if my Def is, say, +60%, I know I'm still capped. But if I get a -15% Def debuff, am I still capped? Super Reflexes already has a high amount of resistance to defense debuffs. So going over 45% isn't worth it, in my opinion, for that particular goal with SR. If you're concerned about specific groups with LTs or Bosses with higher than average hit chances, then using inspirations covers that gap if you are opposed to certain Incarnate solutions. Also, those kinds of enemies are priority targets to die first while their friends whiff whiff whiff.

SR also has higher base values to Melee and Ranged. It's base values to AoE are substantially higher than Ninjutsu. Both sets have endurance recovery. One is a click (Nin) one is passive (Sentinel SR). Since this entire thread is about Dark, that's what I am basing my judgment on. Dark has a heal. It isn't much, but if you have to sacrifice your attack chain for a heal, doing damage with it has a lot of value. At least to me. Since Sentinel SR has Master Brawler which can help slow down incoming damage, Life Drain has some opportunities to shine here. Maybe more so than it might with Nin. I haven't test that, it could be a complete wash for all I know. Super Reflexes offers Quickness which has value for damage output. Ninjutsu offers a 20% bonus to damage when breaking your stealth (so first attack). I know the two are different sets, but they do the same thing primarily. That's positional defense. Ninjutsu straight up offers less of it in trade for other features. However, Sentinel SR offers the choice for an additional damage mitigation its melee cousins don't (Master Brawler), endurance recovery, higher base defense than Ninjutsu, and 20% global recharge. We'll agree to disagree if I find the Sentinel Super Reflexes package to be a better deal than everything Ninjutsu brings to the table. This is even more so with Dark/* since the heal in Life Drain means I only have to use a lower DPA attack vs none at all with Kuji-In Sha. I'll restate too, I play Pistols/Nin. It is a lot of fun, but it is my opinion Super Reflexes is stronger for what it offers Sentinels. P.S., I also get they can hit the softcap. See above, I play it. However, something that is true of Super Reflexes and Ninjutsu melee counter parts is true for Sentinels. Since it takes less for SR to achieve the same softcap, said SR character can use IOs for other things. This starts to compound when one version starts piling on additional damage since it no longer has to chase 20% more global recharge or 2.1% extra defense elsewhere. This means less Thunderstrikes and more opportunities for other things. Also, to get side tracked on Pistol defense synergy, Hail of Bullets has a defense buff that lasts only for 5 seconds. It's a nice way to help dodge the return fire you're going to get but that is pretty much the only defense Pistols offers anything unless we want to start talking about that weak slow in Cryo Ammo. Anyway, that's my thoughts on all that. In the end, YMMV.

I love my Pistol/Nin, but let's not over sell the pairing too much. It is very fun and it checks boxes for me conceptually. However, I'd argue that Super Reflexes or Energy Aura are stronger. Also, Sentinel (and Scrapper) Nin gives up Caltrops and Smoke Flash for quality of life improvements. You can pick those up with Ninja Mastery, but a large point of the Nin set was its toys which Sentinels give up. Furthermore, Pistols doesn't really offer much defense trade to Nin, and Nin offers very little offense trade to Pistols. Not to rain on your parade, but I'm not sure what synergy you're finding beyond conceptual flair. I certainly advocate anyone that wishes to play Pistols/Nin to do so. It is fun. Let's just try to be honest with those seeking advice and not over sell it when other secondaries are available doing the same thing with higher numbers (like Super Reflexes).

Depends on what is more important to your build and goals, no? If chasing 45% defense is what you want, then drop Hasten. Ageless Incarnate will also get you recharge, lots of it, if that is something you want later. Even Barrier can make you immortal so in the end does it really matter? I love SS/WP, but I opted to not chase 45% defense. I stopped around 32% and then built up other things. I'm not aiming to tank all the things, but being a purple inspire away from 45% is good enough for me. That freed my decisions to incorporate the powers I want and the set bonuses I wanted. YMMV

How detrimental would you say this is? Would I absolutely choke for power constantly? Also, I've played both to 15 now (not exactly endgame, I know) and I've found something weird, despite similar slotting I do both less damage AND feel squishier as a Scrapper than I do as a Stalker. Is this something that would continue on through the game or does Scrapper bloom a bit later on? A lot can be said about Stalkers and Hide and how dictating the flow combat is a form of defense. Scrappers are out in the open by default so that may be what you're experiencing. Scrapper defense certainly gets better as it goes. You're a level away from Dark Regeneration, I think it is 16th, and it is a game changer. As to the endurance perks of Scrapper vs Stalker Staff, I'd say it's all about goals. What are you hoping to do and what do you like out of one vs the other. Scrappers get the full run of the expensive toggles (Death Shroud and Cloak of Fear) where Stalkers only have Cloak of Fear. You don't need to run CoF all the time which spares you some end on the Stalker. That perk is probably a wash in the end. Once you start really digging into IO's you can alleviate the endurance pains for either one.

Dark/ANY for Sentinel. Seriously, the to hit debuff is that good if you are interested in the defense help from the primary. For PvP, Elec - maybe -. A lot of hard core PvP players will have +to hit and tons of +accuracy. Their alpha shots on you (from Aim, Build-up, etc) will more than likely hit you regardless of whatever +def you stack. You obviously won't have enough time to stack -to hit unless you're starting combat. Even then, it may not be enough against players. So the resistance could be more valuable to you. For PVE though, see my first sentence. The -to hit in Dark for Sentinels is just stupid good. Like, we really need to be careful about not calling attention to it good. Like Blackstar's duration is 20 seconds (and I can confirm this) and it can be made to recharge pretty close to that (mine has 5 seconds downtime, 5. seconds.). It is -35% to hit which stacks with Umbral Torrent and Dark Obliteration. That's -45% in an area dished out in a matter of seconds. The durations on the -5,25% to hit debuff for all the single target attacks is 10 seconds (Pines isn't accurate) with the exception being Dark Blast at 6 seconds. You can very easily keep -15% to hit debuffed on a single target with rotational bursts of 20%+. My Dark/Regen Sentinel is one of the safest characters I have EVER played in post level 32. My plan is to have Fighting and Leadership after 38. Even on Justin this logic is validated with a fully fleshed out IO test. It is bonkers safe to play in PvE. Waaaaay exceeding my original expectations.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. If you're asking whether using the hide proc for another attack is better DPS than hardcasting AS, the answer is pretty firmly yes. Rhetorical question. I'm just sort of airing a thought process. Maybe my crazy and rambling will be useful to someone else. ;)

Yeah, when I was writing my response to Erydanus I wanted to take a step back and consider play style difference. I wanted to address my method which ultimately is a choice to make Stalker play a bit more Scrapper-esque. With StJ it is pretty obvious to do given the set mechanics. However, the rational for smoothing out an attack sequence by not having an accidental Assassin's Strike during that hide window is applicable to other sets. Though on the other hand, is the animation time of an attack substitution any better than an Assassin's Strike would have been? Right? For me I do it purposefully to improve PPM reliability while also removing AS from my own internal decision tree. I'm getting older, playing twitching just isn't as much my cup of tea as it was. So making sure I don't clicky the wrong thing by accident is a limit imposed on myself. The by product is consistent damage, but I do admit I play that way because of preference. That said, with 5 stalkers, I have Placate on 4 of them and I may even add it back to the 5th just because I can.

Why there? I thought it would go better into a faster more spammed attack. As a psi stalker already in melee, if I get a bonus hide I'll probably jump to Mass Levitate if there's a lot of mobs or AS if there's a dangerous foe/boss I need to get instead. I am wondering if I am missing a subtlety here... I guess it depends on your goals. Who am I to tell you something is wrong, right? Due to how procs per minute work, longer base recharge can still be a factor for each builders IO placements. The goal, as I understand it, is not to leverage the ATO to pop off another Assassin's Strike in combat due to the long animation time. The goal is to drop to hidden and either continue an attack chain with a guaranteed crit (influenced by choice in Primary) or sub in a hard hitting attack for the critical or other effect like with Kinetic Melee's T9 or an AoE or whatever. Since getting the ATO to trigger has nothing to do with a follow-up Assassin's Strike AND said power has a default long recharge, it becomes a good candidate for that particular proc. Putting that ATO in any other long recharge single target power is likely going to be depriving you from the bonus damage of said power when the proc fires off (since it is on cool down). That would leave you with some other power option or Assassin's Strike. A shorter cool down power will have more randomness when the ATO fires off vs potential consistency of AS. I could be completely wrong on how I have been designing my builds too, but that's what I gather of why that proc works in AS so well. It's all about proc trigger reliability and opportunity costs.

I'm not talking about base gameplay with just SO's. As Hopeling points out on the previous page, the sustain changes I was referencing include the Stalker's ATO +Chance to Hide. With an IO build including that single ATO proc in Assassin's Strike, the game play of the AT changes. That change diminishes the value of Placate as a DPS rotational aspect and converts it to a burst move. If a player chooses to go down the path of the IO and ATO build, Placate becomes an option in combat. If you wanna play your stalker like a CoV release era character, I'm not going to stop you or tell you that build is wrong. Just don't dump a bunch of completely irrelevant data from a test that has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said and tell me I am wrong.

Stalkers do not get Innocuous Strikes, Staff Mastery, or Taunt/Confront. In place of those, the Stalker gets Assassin's Staff, Build-Up and Placate. Your only form available to you as a Stalker is Perfection of Body which is a damage increase. You build PoB passively with your attacks and still spend stacks with Sky Splitter. The Stalker version is substantially more passive than the other versions. What you give up from the Scrapper/Tanker/Brute version, in my opinion, for what you gain in Stalker is a wonderful deal. Stalker Staff single target attack chains can be very strong. Staff still has good AoE. You just give up the versatility that the other versions have.

This is confusing burst damage with sustained damage. The changes to AS, the inclusion of focus, and the Stalker ATO all improved sustained damage for the AT. Placate still has a place for burst damage, but it is eclipsed in sustained rotations incorporating the ATO into Assassin's Strike. This is evident on the old forums Stalker threads in the Pylon thread. You can replicate that methodology and test if for yourself right now on Justin if you don't believe it. In short, Placate has uses but it is not the mandatory damage increaser it once was.