Leogunner

No one seems to mention that Propel is an AoE knock back power. Seems like a great spot for a FF +rech proc. The great thing about dimension shift is its a one slot wonder power. It has its niche users and requires no slots. One aspect of the combo is that, with impact damage and the energy charge, you're full up on single target powers so you can skip powers easily depending on what you want to emphasize (control or damage or cosmetics).

That's why I was pressing people to challenge those charts rather than try to dismiss them. I want to know if someone can find a combo that works opposite and benefits Brute or Scrapper disproportionately compared to beta Tanker. There's also the need to run an identical Brute build along a Tanker build and collect more data (preferably, without Incarnate abilities).

That comment wasn't directed only at you but rather most opponents of the charts presented. I have a habit of playing devil's advocate but this time it was unintentional and I'm going more on my gut feelings.

That's not a challenge, it's a clarification. A challenge would be another test that attempts to put a data set into a better perspective, like a more ST set that demonstrates an advantage to Brutes. A clarification is CP stating some of the concerns he is looking for. Two completely different things. CP also suggests a challenge of the data here: I had to re-verify those charts and I think you've misinterpreted them. It's not Tankers at a cap with Brutes with only fury, it's comparing them on a spectrum to the cap, which is kind of the point of the rationalization that it may be possible for a Tanker to overtake Brute damage before the cap. Again, I'd say the various "gotcha" rationalizations (most of which are faulty) are merely attempts to dismiss data. Why? You're better off just leaving the point and testing something else and leave others to paint a bigger balance picture using the various comparisons and tests.

I'd tell you, take it up with Vanden then since he was the one who brought up the amount of powers and their frequency taken. That data isn't used to justify it's use but as a counter to another dismissal of previous data. This whole back and forth is very circular and completely missing the purpose that data is present and one side is attempting to dismiss it when it should instead be challenged.

And what metric are you gauging this from? As far as I know, the poll data collected were of level 50 characters only and the majority of characters that would fulfill the aspect of PUGs are leveling to get to level 50. This justification to dismiss data is insufficient. Obviously the majority aren't min/maxers...that doesn't disqualify the actions of min/maxers from affecting a game's balance. In fact, min/maxers have MORE effect on a game's balance than normal gamers for the very reason they are min/maxers. Your rationalization that there is no issue is insufficient. At best, the measure of how problematic the issue is is debatable.

Does it matter? What are we even doing in this game but glorified farming and gearing up of various characters. Unless you want to touch on PvP, but I have a suspicion most don't want to be bothered with PvP balance at all.

Hey guy, read the context of the posts you're replying to. I don't have time to explain the meaning of my posts to someone who can't follow linear responses.

I can't believe I'm defending Bruising, as I am a major proponent of the AoE/target cap changes but I'd argue that your observations are due to its implementation rather than the effect or intent. They could make the effect more visually noticable with a "shattering" visual when applying bruising. They can make it mechanically more noticeable by expanding the skills that can apply it and giving the AT charges to build and expend (with glowing circles and all).

Does that mean "Throw caution to the wind! Do whatever you want"? No.

That's like a reverse slippery slope argument. "The slope is impossible to get slippery so why not lather it in more butter! Let's Go!" You should always be cautious of making changes. Why do you think the Cottage Rule is so referenced?

Well the parameters have been set. Just start testing identical build Brutes to the new Tanker. I think the AoE variable is another factor that will greatly depend on teams or lack thereof. AoE is only an advantage for how long fodder lasts to soak up more damage.

Please look past your own nose when considering aspects of balance here. Of course you'll probably be on a team with a Tanker that does more damage than you on even your Scrapper. It's possible now, just have a mid to upper level non-IO'ed Scrapper with a tricked out max level incarnate Tanker and you likely will have that scenario. No one's arguing that that happens and thus we should accept it (we already do). But these changes aren't live yet so they are subject to OBJECTIVE balance, not your subjective moral sophistry about rewards and team cohesion. You, as a beta tester, should be keen on the goals of the changes, not your subjective acceptance of them.

Take into consideration all the Tanker changes here: -Melee damage mod up to 0.95 (replaces Bruising) -Damage caps increased -AoEs increased in area (radii/arc) and target cap -Resistance debuff mods increased -Leadership improvements (not sure what the exact number is on this increase) -Taunt increases (changed to a Proc, increased from 5 targets to 7) The point to take in is the general mark that is aimed for is 90% damage of an equivalent Brute at the damage cap. I believe his point is it may be possible to reach that 90% before the cap and surpass that 90% at the cap or when taking into account Tanker-specific advantages such as AoEs. What would be rather keeping isn't really the takeaway point here unless you're trying to dismantle his point. What should be the takeaway point is addressing if these possibilities are possible, if they are desirable and if not, toning down or requiring enough sacrifice to achieve.

Off topic, but I'm having fun with my Bio/Fire/Mako...it's actually a better analog for a Draconic Necromancer who wields and summons dragon bones and breathing elemental dragon breaths on fools. Not sure why I never though about Bio for the concept until now...it was a live version of Brute before remaking it in HC but I just wish the customizations for Bio were literal bone. I might play with costume options for a better visual representation. Breath of Fire isn't quite as good as I'd hope it to be with these changes though although if the other attacks had sword animations, I guess I could make the set work better vs taking/slotting 4 primary attacks and frankenslotting them for max effectiveness. I've got a lot of Tankers to make if these changes go live.

Damage cap IS an outlier.

Rather than try to conjure a scenario that invalidates Auroxis' data, how about considering scenarios that can exploit these data points even further than Auroxis or others ever thought about?

Considering that some of the changes directly affect those few powers (-res powers, +damage powers) I don't think it should be something to dismiss.

So I figure why Breath of Fire wasn't increased is because it was already 15ft range but was its arc increased at all? I guess it's difficult to discern between 30 degrees and 60 degrees...I feel like Shadow Maul is easier to hit mutliples. Maybe asking too much to nerf BoF's range for Tanker so that it's either boostable or so widen its arc.

Then I'd just make something (I already have) with 3 origins and we'll be back where we started.

Messing with my Bio/Fire Tanker. Was Breath of Fire increased? It feels very short range. Even slotting up range barely gives it the something I can use with my other breath attacks. Was the arc improved? I'll have to keep playing with but it feels as narrow as it's always been.

Thinking back on my time with FFXI (the first online Final Fantasy game for those unfamiliar), this kind of existed with tanks being non-damaging, healers healing in the back and DPS coordinating skillchains and magic bursts. Back in the early era of it, there was even a secondary DPS role reliant on aiding in the management of hate/aggro, usually this was the Thief who would use a skill called Trick Attack so that their next damaging action would generate hate on the person he used the action behind (i.e. put the tank between the foe and themselves) and then later a /Thief (subjob) when it was available. There was also the Dragoon who could manage their own hate by using Super Jump to cleanse all enmity on themselves plus part of their DPS was shared with their pet wyvern. Later on, as the Ninja job became more prevalent, the means of tanking and managing hate shifted more to a DPS using shadows to absorb damage or the tank nullifying damage (thus losing less hate when attacked). Later still, as more knowledge about the game was gathered (things like stat modifiers for skills and spells were hidden so people had to figure stuff out over months or even years), tanks started to adopt more offensive capabilities and used more gear swaps to keep hate. In that game, the tanks didn't do much damage but they still ended up trying though (like gear swaps for weapon skills/spells) and the DPSs tended to buy themselves some contingency by keeping some kind of defensive stance or skill available. Everything is rather complex but the game also moved far slower than in CoX. Faster still with more modern action games. Even now, in FFXIV, tanks still DPS, their skills are just modified by different stats.

I think the problem with that is you create a kind of meta-gaming via costumes where you swap to smashing vs robots and lethal vs carnies or some such min/maxing when the cast times favor one power over another. For someone like me, I think it's all win/win. I tend to push concept over effectiveness...heck, I even currently have a Fire Brute who is a necromatic dragon who wields the skeletons of dragons as armor and shields (shield defense) and only has the sword fire attacks as kind of a necromancy magic construct...and as a dragon lich, he can swap out his throat to basically use any element of dragon breath (he's only got fire, ice and toxic breath though...lightning and wind breath don't exist in the game). Needless to say, all his attacks are fire swords and long animating breath attacks (I'll likely be remaking him into a Tanker, TBH). That being said, a meta-costume type feature could just be an aspect of those sets as I don't think Fire or Ice melee are particularly strong or weak that would push it beyond the higher performing sets. EDIT: Also, give Stone Armor some better visuals. Bone would be perfect 🙂

Not making an argument against you, but 500% of what? If you're effectively taking 0% damage when taking into account sustain from regen and a debuff now increases that into 3.4% damage for the duration of the debuff, wouldn't you need to take these factors into account when comparing it to something who starts off taking 4% damage and 6.2% damage with the debuff?

Oh, well I haven't made a Sentinel. Not sure what their inherent is. Is it good (the inherent, that is)?