Add a smidge of +Recharge to inherent Swift?

[Rathulfr]

39 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Having Inherent Stamina was already a "Smidge More" recovery for everyone.

 

You're just walking down the path a "Smidge Further"

 

And yeah. Power Creep exists. That's not a good reason to pile onto it.

And it's not a good reason to eschew it, either.

[DSorrow]

1 hour ago, Rathulfr said:

 

Power creep?  I'd say the horse is well out of the barn, past the farm gate, and well into the fields on that, by now.

 

Maybe, but I don't think that's a solid argument for why we should get even more. Not that I wouldn't mind that extra recharge for many of my builds, but I just don't think it's reasonable to consider any change that alone doesn't break the game completely fine.

 

The line of reasoning I'm trying to illustrate is that buffing everyone's damage by 1% wouldn't probably even be noticed by the vast majority of the players, but buffing it by 100% would "break the game". If we just started buffing damage in 1% increments, at what point do we stop if none of the increments by themselves qualify for breaking the game?

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, Rathulfr said:

And it's not a good reason to eschew it, either.

The reason to eschew it is because Power Creep ruins games by making everything too easy.

 

It being present is a reason to Nerf.

[Rathulfr]

1 minute ago, DSorrow said:

Maybe, but I don't think that's a solid argument for why we should get even more. Not that I wouldn't mind that extra recharge for many of my builds, but I just don't think it's reasonable to consider any change that alone doesn't break the game completely fine.

 

The line of reasoning I'm trying to illustrate is that buffing everyone's damage by 1% wouldn't probably even be noticed by the vast majority of the players, but buffing it by 100% would "break the game". If we just started buffing damage in 1% increments, at what point do we stop if none of the increments by themselves qualify for breaking the game?

At what point do we stop?  When the accumulated changes actually tip the scales and break things.  You're giving the tired old "slippery slope" argument.

[Rathulfr]

1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:

The reason to eschew it is because Power Creep ruins games by making everything too easy.

 

It being present is a reason to Nerf.

Is our game ruined yet?  Isn't Rebirth's entire argument against Homecoming that we've ruined the game by making things too easy?  At what point does it become too easy?  Who gets to decide that?  And is a few percent more recharge really the straw that breaks the camel's back?

[Megajoule]

2 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

At what point do we stop?

Never.  It never stops.  That's what I'm saying.

There's always something else, just out of reach, and we tell ourselves, "when I have that, then I will finally be content and happy."

[Rathulfr]

1 minute ago, Megajoule said:

Never.  It never stops.  That's what I'm saying.

There's always something else, just out of reach, and we tell ourselves, "when I have that, then I will finally be content and happy."

So you're arguing for no changes or improvements ever?  Maintain the status quo, indefinitely?

[DSorrow]

1 minute ago, Rathulfr said:

At what point do we stop?  When the accumulated changes actually tip the scales and break things.  You're giving the tired old "slippery slope" argument.

Strictly speaking, I'm not using a slippery slope argument which would be more akin to "give this it and will lead to X". I'm not making any claims to +Rech in Swift leading to any other changes. What I am saying is that we can't easily quantify the point at which "the scales tip" which makes incremental changes just for the sake of more dangerous.

 

I just don't see any strong arguments for why this change should be done.

[Rathulfr]

3 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

Strictly speaking, I'm not using a slippery slope argument which would be more akin to "give this it and will lead to X". I'm not making any claims to +Rech in Swift leading to any other changes. What I am saying is that we can't easily quantify the point at which "the scales tip" which makes incremental changes just for the sake of more dangerous.

 

I just don't see any strong arguments for why this change should be done.

My argument for why it should be done is that it might allow some builds to forego Hasten, which allows for greater flexibility/diversity in builds for some characters.  What's your argument against it, other than "no, I disagree with you"?

Edited September 25, 2019 by Rathulfr

[DSorrow]

7 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

My argument for why it should be done is that it might allow some builds to forego Hasten, which allows for greater flexibility/diversity for some characters.  What's your argument against it, other than "no, I disagree with you"?

Hasten can already be skipped with IOs, I don't see how 10% +Rech in Swift would make any meaningful change to the status quo. I generally oppose unjustified power creep because I don't think a constantly increasing power curve is good for the game's balance.

 

EDIT : Personally I wouldn't mind getting +10% Rech, but I just can't come up with any proper arguments why it should happen, which to me implies that the status quo should be maintained. I'm being a bit sarcastic but, why don't we just increase everyone's damage by 1.7%? It wouldn't break the game either.

Edited September 25, 2019 by DSorrow

[Steampunkette]

7 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Is our game ruined yet?  Isn't Rebirth's entire argument against Homecoming that we've ruined the game by making things too easy?  At what point does it become too easy?  Who gets to decide that?  And is a few percent more recharge really the straw that breaks the camel's back?

Ah, yes. The pointless rhetorical framing device meant to avoid acknowledging a point in favor of creating 'Floating Point' Goalposts. Love it.

 

For some people it's too easy, already. For others not so much. But with more than a few people clamoring for more challenging content and increased aggro caps 'cause +4x8 isn't hard enough I think it's safe to say that we're over the hump of ease.

 

If your position is "It ain't ruined, yet, therefore we should keep pressing further and further until we reach the ruined point" then I dunno what to tell you.

 

There's good reasons not to do it (Power Creep being the top one), but the only reasons to do it are 'I want it' and 'It would allow more people to skip Hasten'

 

There's 900,000+ characters. Around 150,000 of them have Hasten. 180k have Fly.

 

It seems like Builds are already pretty damned diverse. 

[Megajoule]

9 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

So you're arguing for no changes or improvements ever?  Maintain the status quo, indefinitely?

I'm arguing that if you do get what you're asking for here, it will not, in fact, satisfy you.  Not for long.

[MunkiLord]

I don't expect a suggestion like this to be implemented, though I wouldn't complain if it was. But I like these suggestions as they help balance out the calls for nerfs, and I firmly believe those should be drowned out by opposing suggestions and ideas as much as possible.

[Rathulfr]

17 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

I'm arguing that if you do get what you're asking for here, it will not, in fact, satisfy you.  Not for long.

 

Thanks for looking out for me, I appreciate it.

Wait, no I don't.  How can you possibly know what will or will not satisfy me, or for how long?

While you're at it, would you care to tell me which god I should worship or which candidate I should vote for?  I'm certain you feel qualified to tell me that, too.

 

Geez, can we discuss the topic on its merits, please?  Thanks!

 

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, Rathulfr said:

which candidate I should vote for?

*vibrates with the urge to get political*

 

You can't tease me like that, Rath!

[TheAdjustor]

3 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Recharge buff from Superspeed ... no ... that's going to open a whole can of worms that is best kept sealed (in concrete at the bottom of the North Sea).

 

 

No and a thousand times no to everyone that worries about power creep.

 

Recharge for most people is generally very deep into the land of diminishing returns.

Example  a 10 second recharge  power

0% Recharge : 10 seconds

60% Recharge : 6.25 seconds (typical set slotting)

80% Recharge: 5.25 seconds

100% Recharge : 5 seconds

120% Recharge: 4.5 seconds

140% Recharge :  4.17

160% Recharge :  3.85

180% Recharge :  3.57

200% Recharge :  3.33

230% Recharge :  3.03 (Perma hasten and 60% in power recharge)

260% Recharge:   2.78 ( adding a full 30% as a power pick to that)

400% Recharge :  2.0

 

You just don't get that much from additional recharge.  Once you have enough to run your optimal attack chains and a little extra to cover debuffs it's not that particularly important at all.

 

Some sort of recharge global would be very nice for people that don't want to take hasten, it's practically a forced pick but do want to be able to run their attack chains.

 

 

[Rathulfr]

38 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

Hasten can already be skipped with IOs, I don't see how 10% +Rech in Swift would make any meaningful change to the status quo. I generally oppose unjustified power creep because I don't think a constantly increasing power curve is good for the game's balance.

 

EDIT : Personally I wouldn't mind getting +10% Rech, but I just can't come up with any proper arguments why it should happen, which to me implies that the status quo should be maintained. I'm being a bit sarcastic but, why don't we just increase everyone's damage by 1.7%? It wouldn't break the game either.

 

Hasten can be skipped with IOs in some, but not all, builds.

 

Just because you can't see how it would make a meaningful change doesn't mean that I can't, either (I believe it can, for some of my builds).

 

I usually oppose unjustified power creep as well.  I just don't think this particular ask is completely unjustified.  It might be insufficiently justified, which is a fair cop.

 

I agree that a constantly increasing power curve is not good for the game's balance.  I'm not asking for that in this case, or else I wouldn't have posted in the first place.  But if you think that adding a smidge more recharge to everyone contributes to constantly increasing power curves and puts game balance in jeopardy, then that's a legitimate argument against it.  Point for your team.

 

+1 to your suggestion that we increase everyone's damage by 1.7%.  For the sake of game balance, we should also increase mob damage by 1.7%, too.  😉

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Rathulfr

[Rathulfr]

4 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

Some sort of recharge global would be very nice for people that don't want to take hasten, it's practically a forced pick but do want to be able to run their attack chains.

Thank you!

[Steampunkette]

900,000 characters. 150,000 hasten users.

 

That's not "Practically Forced" That's not "Deep in Recharge Diminishing Returns"

 

That's 750,000 characters that don't bother. And -significantly- less than 150,000 that are Min-Maxed to the nines trying to get the perfect attack rotation and feel 'forced' to take it.

 

Your experiences are not universal.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Rathulfr]

41 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

There's good reasons not to do it (Power Creep being the top one), but the only reasons to do it are 'I want it' and 'It would allow more people to skip Hasten'

And I disagree with you that "power creep" (in and of itself) is a good reason not to do it.  If it were, we'd all be playing an older version of the game.  Power creep started to become an issue well before the game shut down.  How far back should we go?*

 

(*edit:)  If we're going back to avoid power creep, let's go all the way back to i3, before ED.  [I'm only half-joking.]

Edited September 25, 2019 by Rathulfr

[TheAdjustor]

Just amplifying in separate post, not sure if this doesn't deserve it's own topic.

 

Just what should you be forced to take run your optimal attack chain ?

 

As things stand people generally wind up taking 3-5 picks to slot LotG +7.5 whether or not the abillities are particularly germane to their build/ concept.  Then the +recharge chase starts up.

 

This is so antithetical to the core of the game which is make your concept and then make it awesome, it's not funny. Having a way to get what you need just through power picks would be something that would breathe a lot of fresh air into the game.

[Rathulfr]

Just now, TheAdjustor said:

Just amplifying in separate post, not sure if this doesn't deserve it's own topic.

 

Just what should you be forced to take run your optimal attack chain ?

 

As things stand people generally wind up taking 3-5 picks to slot LotG +7.5 whether or not the abillities are particularly germane to their build/ concept.  Then the +recharge chase starts up.

 

This is so antithetical to the core of the game which is make your concept and then make it awesome, it's not funny. Having a way to get what you need just through power picks would be something that would breathe a lot of fresh air into the game.

 

YES!  THIS, A THOUSAND TIMES THIS!

 

[Hero Star]

I'd rather see a reverse to Enchancement Diversification before this change.

[TheAdjustor]

19 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

900,000 characters. 150,000 hasten users.

 

That's not "Practically Forced" That's not "Deep in Recharge Diminishing Returns"

 

That's 750,000 characters that don't bother. And -significantly- less than 150,000 that are Min-Maxed to the nines trying to get the perfect attack rotation and feel 'forced' to take it.

 

Your experiences are not universal.

My mom before she passed away was very fond of the phrase figures don't lie but liars sure can figure. Oddly enough she was the financial controller for manufacturing firm.

 

Anyway looking at the number

For level 50 characters hasten is the number 1 pool power pick

Speed	Hasten	53,580

 

Tough is a distant number 2 with 35k and change.

 

And oddly enough  that's out of

60,348 of those are Level 50

 

So that's practically 90%

 

Looks like an overwhelming and nearly forced pick to me. What's more it looks like a lot of people as they level decide it's absolutely needed.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[Steampunkette]

No one is forced to use their optimal attack chain. In fact, the majority of players don't KNOW their optimal attack chain... They just go through the game fighting and having a blast beating up bad guys (Or good guys)

 

But the Optimal Attack Chain is forever going to be be held to the limits of what can, currently, be done. Because the absolute best Single Target Attack Chain for Super Strength would be Knockout Blow with no Cooldown. Just infinite punches over and over and over again doing 600+ DPS.  And the best SS AoE would just be infinite Footstomps one after another 'til everything is dead with no cooldown.

 

Not that I think that's where this is going. Just trying to illustrate that the current "Optimal" is only the best 'til the next big change, regardless of what it is. Optimal is only Optimal in relation to what can currently e done, and every change alters the optimal.

 

Thank God no one Advocates for the removal of ED so there's no way my previous example could ever hap-

2 minutes ago, Hero Star said:

I'd rather see a reverse to Enchancement Diversification before this change.

Oh.

 

Yeah... No. /Jranger to both. Let's start bringing stuff to parity through buffs and nerfs to get 'Ballpark Balance' and then we can revisit this.