Arch-Enemy NPCs and power sets

[Menelruin]

I don't know about you, but I always get a little thrill when a mission involves going up against a copy of myself, and I know that it's been suggested before that you could have an arch-enemy you fight, akin to a Gary Oak or something (sadly we can't really use the word "Nemesis" for it, can we?). 

 

I was just thinking as an added nice touch, it would be cool if you had a recurring opponent who was your AT and origin, but had (where applicable) an "opposite" power set.  If you're an energy blaster, they're a dark blaster.  You have fire control, they have ice control.  Kind of like the final fight of Iceman vs. Pyro in X-Men 3....but less lame.

 

In some cases, it's more fitting for them to have the same, or a similar set, of course.  I figure beam rifle would just be against itself (rival mad scientists!), and AR would probably be against DP (rival gunmen!).  MA also probably against itself.  Just a random cool thought I had.

 

EDIT:  Actually, KM might be a good counter for MA.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Menelruin

[Menelruin]

Here's my tentative thoughts (skipping Assault since it'll either be based on a Blast or Melee set):

 

Blasts:

Fire opposes Ice

Electric opposes Water

Energy opposes Dark

Sonic opposes Rad (debuff sets? Light vs Sound?)

Beam opposes Psychic (using your mind for inventions vs using it AS a weapon) 

AR opposes DP as well as Archery (rival shooter styles)

 

Melee:

 

Energy opposes Dark

Fire opposes Ice

Electric opposes Stone (sky vs. earth)

SS opposes Psi (muscle vs. mind)

MA opposes KM (KM can be a MA sub-style, as shown by Tsoo)

SJ opposes Savage (tactics vs instinct)

Rad opposes Spines (can't think of other pairings)

Katana and Staff both oppose BS, WM and BA (western vs eastern weaponry)

 

Defense:

Energy opposes Dark

Electric opposes Stone

Ice opposes Fire 

Regen opposes both Rad and Bio (self-healing against toxins, like Wolverine vs.Omega Red)

Shield opposes WP

SR opposes Invul (dodging hits vs tanking them)

 

Buff/Debuff:

Emp opposes Pain

Dark opposes Nature (underworld vs life)

Time opposes Kinetics

Thermal opposes Cold

TA opposes both Traps and Poison

Rad opposes both Storm and Sonic (can't think of other pairings)

 

Control:

Fire opposes Ice 

Earth opposes Electric 

Plant opposes Dark (life vs death)

Illusion opposes both Mind and Gravity. 

 

I'm curious what other folks think would be better pairings.

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Menelruin

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Menelruin said:

(sadly we can't really use the word "Nemesis" for it, can we?)

 

Nemesis would still be applicable.  It would be lowercase in use, which would be sufficient to differentiate it from Lord Nemesis.

 

That said, Nemesis was the goddess of righteous wrath and retribution (Roman, if i recall), so it's never really been appropriate in modern usage.  Even her image, that of a blindfolded, sword-wielding maiden, isn't used in the proper context (it's supposed to symbolize justice now).

 

Just a bit of historical trivia.

[Menelruin]

Well, it'd work better if "Lord Nemesis" was actually Lady Nemesis, and saw herself as the wrath of the gods....but then, there's the Furies for that, etc.

[GM Tempest]

Champions Online obviously did this first, but the concept is a neat one. I've always liked the idea of having your nemesis grow in strength and power as you do! It's something neat to think about, at least.

[Chris24601]

I like the idea of having a personal villain; however, I wouldn’t go automatic opposite by default. Plenty of heroes have signature villains who are more dark reflections than direct opposites.

 

Arrow had the Dark Archer (aka Malcolm Merlin), Flash has a whole set including Reverse Flash, Professor Zoom, Savitar, etc. Superman has Zod, Doomsday, Darkseid, etc. as dark reflections. Spider-Man has Green Goblin (who in later versions uses a variation on the process that gives Peter his powers), Venom, etc.

 

The point is... elemental opposites is far from the only way to go in having a signature villain. If it were up to me, I’d have them built more in line with the AE custom mobs so you can pick whichever powers and appearance best fit your concept of an arch-nemesis.

[Menelruin]

31 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

I like the idea of having a personal villain; however, I wouldn’t go automatic opposite by default. Plenty of heroes have signature villains who are more dark reflections than direct opposites.

 

Arrow had the Dark Archer (aka Malcolm Merlin), Flash has a whole set including Reverse Flash, Professor Zoom, Savitar, etc. Superman has Zod, Doomsday, Darkseid, etc. as dark reflections. Spider-Man has Green Goblin (who in later versions uses a variation on the process that gives Peter his powers), Venom, etc.

 

The point is... elemental opposites is far from the only way to go in having a signature villain. If it were up to me, I’d have them built more in line with the AE custom mobs so you can pick whichever powers and appearance best fit your concept of an arch-nemesis.

The only problem being then people are incentivized to pick a rival build just so they can trounce them easily.  That's why I figured making them have the same AT as you but different powers would make it interesting. 

[Menelruin]

Also, some are more thematic contrasts of something similar, like DP vs AR.  Far from opposites, they're REALLY similar in terms of type of person who would use them (like Malta).  Or Psi vs SS, think Brainiac vs. Superman, or The Leader (I know, wrong AT, but work with me here) vs. the Hulk.  I was also thinking of MA countering itself, and same for some melee weapons.  Katana vs BS, it's similar but different styles, and still coming down to the question "who is the better swordsman?"

 

You could also try and dive into ATs countering eachother, but that's a WHOLE OTHER can of worms I don't feel qualified to decipher.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Menelruin

[boggo2300]

Don't get me wrong, it's a lovely Idea, and I'd love it (though I'd prefer a create your nemesis rather than just your AT with reversed powers) BUT OMG do you know how much work it would be bolting this on?  I've retired from programming a LONG time ago, but the thought of this still makes me cringe at the work involved!

[Menelruin]

14 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

Don't get me wrong, it's a lovely Idea, and I'd love it (though I'd prefer a create your nemesis rather than just your AT with reversed powers) BUT OMG do you know how much work it would be bolting this on?  I've retired from programming a LONG time ago, but the thought of this still makes me cringe at the work involved!

No idea, but I assumed it would be a ton, but was maybe something they could work on IF the deal goes through with NC Soft and they're able to actually get PAID for the work they do.  Posted here more because I was curious if it was the kind of thing more people thought was cool.

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Menelruin said:

No idea, but I assumed it would be a ton, but was maybe something they could work on IF the deal goes through with NC Soft and they're able to actually get PAID for the work they do.  Posted here more because I was curious if it was the kind of thing more people thought was cool.

They aren't getting paid thats not what the deal is and from what I understand one of the reasons NC-Soft is talking to them

[Luminara]

15 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

Don't get me wrong, it's a lovely Idea, and I'd love it (though I'd prefer a create your nemesis rather than just your AT with reversed powers) BUT OMG do you know how much work it would be bolting this on?  I've retired from programming a LONG time ago, but the thought of this still makes me cringe at the work involved!

 

Isn't there already a doppelganger system in place?  I'm certain I encountered that years ago, both solo and on a team.  That system would be comparatively easy to adapt to a nemesis system.  Comparatively.

 

I can also speculate with a high of confidence that the long-term goal of that existing doppelganger system was giving players their own arch-enemies.  It was a frequent request on the original forums, and the original development team was always keen to deliver features which the majority of players wanted.

 

So, presuming that living in a magical forest hasn't clouded my memory, the real speed bump here is implementation.  With the existing doppelganger system copied, modified and set in place to create a unique arch-enemy for each character, how the system is implemented becomes the crucial factor.  Does the nemesis have its own story arc and/or task/strike force(s), or does it merely appear in random missions, replacing standard bosses?  Would it appear once per level?  Three times per level?  Once every five levels?  How does the doppelganger spawn, meaning, does it respect the player's difficulty setting, or is it always a boss (or EB, or lieutenant, or AV, or...)?  Would the defeat of the arch-enemy be a requirement for progression, or would it be something they could skip?  Should this "Surprise, it's your nemesis!" foe appear when players are teamed, or exclusive to solo play?  If it spawns when a player is teamed, do all teammates potentially spawn arch-enemies?  If it spawns as EB or higher when teamed, does that create a sense of resentment and unwelcomeness for players who opted into the system because it poses the threat of wipes or drastic slowdowns?  If it's exclusive to solo missions, and both challenging and as awesome as it could be, how does one prevent players from eschewing all team-oriented content in favor of nemesis content?

 

I suspect that it was questions like these which continually pushed a nemesis feature to the back burner, despite existing code which made it possible.  I also suspect that a fully-fledged nemesis system would shift the story focus away from the major NPCs and various zones, more toward a single-player style, which would be less enjoyable and applicable in the existing MMO environment.

 

Simply putting a nemesis system in, that should be possible with the doppelganger code.  Creating a 1-50 arc is definitely possible.  Beyond that, you're looking at redesigning the core content of the game.  And you want to be very, very cautious when you dip your toe in that water.

[Menelruin]

2 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

They aren't getting paid thats not what the deal is and from what I understand one of the reasons NC-Soft is talking to them

I thought that they'd be able to take unlimited donations if it went through?

[Menelruin]

41 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

*a whole bunch of awesome, well-thought-out stuff*

I was thinking it wouldn't be random, but that there would be set points in both arcs in general, and dedicated arcs in particular, where you run into them.  Like they just HAPPEN to always show up at the end of the Arachnos base in Atlas, for the first time, but certain NPCs also now have story arcs revolving around thwarting your nemesis.  Like I said, I'm heavily imagining a "Gary Oak" vibe.

[boggo2300]

7 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Isn't there already a doppelganger system in place?  I'm certain I encountered that years ago, both solo and on a team.  That system would be comparatively easy to adapt to a nemesis system.  Comparatively.

 

I can also speculate with a high of confidence that the long-term goal of that existing doppelganger system was giving players their own arch-enemies.  It was a frequent request on the original forums, and the original development team was always keen to deliver features which the majority of players wanted.

 

So, presuming that living in a magical forest hasn't clouded my memory, the real speed bump here is implementation.  With the existing doppelganger system copied, modified and set in place to create a unique arch-enemy for each character, how the system is implemented becomes the crucial factor.  Does the nemesis have its own story arc and/or task/strike force(s), or does it merely appear in random missions, replacing standard bosses?  Would it appear once per level?  Three times per level?  Once every five levels?  How does the doppelganger spawn, meaning, does it respect the player's difficulty setting, or is it always a boss (or EB, or lieutenant, or AV, or...)?  Would the defeat of the arch-enemy be a requirement for progression, or would it be something they could skip?  Should this "Surprise, it's your nemesis!" foe appear when players are teamed, or exclusive to solo play?  If it spawns when a player is teamed, do all teammates potentially spawn arch-enemies?  If it spawns as EB or higher when teamed, does that create a sense of resentment and unwelcomeness for players who opted into the system because it poses the threat of wipes or drastic slowdowns?  If it's exclusive to solo missions, and both challenging and as awesome as it could be, how does one prevent players from eschewing all team-oriented content in favor of nemesis content?

 

I suspect that it was questions like these which continually pushed a nemesis feature to the back burner, despite existing code which made it possible.  I also suspect that a fully-fledged nemesis system would shift the story focus away from the major NPCs and various zones, more toward a single-player style, which would be less enjoyable and applicable in the existing MMO environment.

 

Simply putting a nemesis system in, that should be possible with the doppelganger code.  Creating a 1-50 arc is definitely possible.  Beyond that, you're looking at redesigning the core content of the game.  And you want to be very, very cautious when you dip your toe in that water.

no, it says it is, but the Paragon Protector clone in that mish is very much a generic of your AT (and not always that, do the mish with a Kheld or a Villain AT and I think you get a scrapper)

[boggo2300]

6 hours ago, Menelruin said:

I thought that they'd be able to take unlimited donations if it went through?

they are able to take unlimited donations now

 

They however will have to remain non-profit,  financially speaking nothing is supposed to change, only the threat of being curb stomped from Seoul and being able to come out of the shadows... and most importantly, longevity, it's a major deal as they will be able to plan ahead with some confidence

[Menelruin]

1 hour ago, boggo2300 said:

they are able to take unlimited donations now

 

They however will have to remain non-profit,  financially speaking nothing is supposed to change, only the threat of being curb stomped from Seoul and being able to come out of the shadows... and most importantly, longevity, it's a major deal as they will be able to plan ahead with some confidence

I'm a bit confused now.  I thought the whole reason for PayPal donations was so they could only take EXACTLY as much as they need to operate at-cost?   Like if they need X amount per month, they're deliberately rejecting any donations over that amount?  And then I presumed that IF things go well with NC Soft, then they'd be able to take unlimited donations, and either pocket whatever extra they got (rightfully so!), and/or use it to hire help with coding?

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Menelruin said:

I'm a bit confused now.  I thought the whole reason for PayPal donations was so they could only take EXACTLY as much as they need to operate at-cost?   Like if they need X amount per month, they're deliberately rejecting any donations over that amount?  And then I presumed that IF things go well with NC Soft, then they'd be able to take unlimited donations, and either pocket whatever extra they got (rightfully so!), and/or use it to hire help with coding?

Yes, and thats not planned to change, it's actually one of their negotiation points with NC-Soft I believe, but they can accept any amount to cover operating costs, and that's the stated goal after the negotiations as well

[Menelruin]

1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

Yes, and thats not planned to change, it's actually one of their negotiation points with NC-Soft I believe, but they can accept any amount to cover operating costs, and that's the stated goal after the negotiations as well

So wait.  Let's say it takes 5K a month to operate.  Are you saying that if the donations go well, and they receive 7K donations in a month, they CAN or CANNOT pocket the extra 2K?  (Sorry if I'm being obtuse on this, I just wanna make sure I'm not in error on their situation).

[boggo2300]

They technically can, BUT they stop accepting donations immediately upon reaching the month's expenses.  I'm not American so I don't know how non-profit organisations operate there, but here they could bank the excess to go against operating expenses, however there are pretty strict limits on that and what it's used for.

 

I suspect it's to avoid that is the reason they cut off accepting donations as soon as the monthly threshold is reached.  They have clearly stated outright, that they expect to continue operating as a non-profit after the negotiations, and though it's only my gut feeling, I'm pretty sure that intention is what got their foot in the door at NC, it makes their existence less threatening to the IP for City.

 

I could be entirely wrong, this is my interpretation of the information thats made it past the non-disclosure, but I'm pretty confident I'm at least close

[Menelruin]

Oh, I hadn't heard they were going to stay nonprofit! 

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Menelruin said:

Oh, I hadn't heard they were going to stay nonprofit! 

Either Cipher or Jimmy said it in the thread they announced the talks with NC-Soft (possibly both of them)

[Menelruin]

Well, frell.  That puts serious limits on the scope of projects they can realistically be expected to carry out....

[boggo2300]

2 hours ago, Menelruin said:

Well, frell.  That puts serious limits on the scope of projects they can realistically be expected to carry out....

They haven't ruled out paid developers if it goes through, but I don't think it's a priority, they have two excellent volunteer dev's and there is a pretty long list of people who put their names forward to help as well I believe

[TyrantMikey]

On 12/23/2019 at 10:51 AM, Menelruin said:

Here's my tentative thoughts (skipping Assault since it'll either be based on a Blast or Melee set):

 

[Snip]

 

Defense:

Energy opposes Dark

Electric opposes Stone

Ice opposes Fire 

Regen opposes both Rad and Bio (self-healing against toxins, like Wolverine vs.Omega Red)

Shield opposes WP

SR opposes Invul (dodging hits vs tanking them)

 

Nah. For Will Power, you want something that drains endurance, and drains it hard and irresistibly. Couple that with teleportation.

 

For example, consider my main, Prodigal. He's a WP/SS tank. He can stomp just about anything in the yard.  The only time he might get a real challenge going is if you hit him with significant amounts of endurance drain and forced his toggles to drop. Then he's in trouble.

 

Whatever we came up with has to take both primary and secondary abilities we have, but I'm not sure I'd want those abilities auto-selected for us. It'd be too cookie-cutter.