Considering Re-Rolling my Scrapper as a Brute, but I Need Some Answers First

[00Troy00]

I've been soloing with a claws/Nin scrapper who's currently at 30, but after doing more research and seeing how painful it can be to play a defense-based melee toon as the game progresses, I'm considering curring my losses and rolling him as as a claws/Inv or Bio (now that I know how to turn off the animations). 

 

I now have 2 questions:

 

1. Inv vs Bio?

 

2. I know brutes give up some damage for survivability, but is there a way to close that damage gap?

 

Thanks all.

[oldskool]

TL;DR: You may be searching for a resolution without a problem. 

The challenge with Nin is that it can have its defenses stripped by enemies capable of doing that.  The T9 power, while similar to Elude in /SR, gets you some defense debuff resistance.  There is an Ageless variant in Incarnate options that can also provide you with DDR.  Claws/Nin shouldn't need the recovery option from Ageless anyway (it'd probably be nice but perhaps overkill).  

"Painful" on defense-based characters is going to be subjective so please don't feel a need to toss out the baby with the bathwater if you like your Scrapper.  The game has things like resistance inspirations and the like that are intended to pad things out when you need it.  

Now, as for Inv vs Bio and Claws...  I'd prefer Claws on either a Scrapper or Tanker but it isn't horrible on Brutes.  Claws is a really solid set.  

Invul can have an easier time capping resistances and gaining higher defenses than Bio Armor.  That's also true on Scrappers.  Invincibility scales defense on the number of enemies making it very valuable.  Invul's big weakness is Psionic damage but you can find numerous IO options these days to help raise it.  You add on capped or near capped hit points with Dull Pain and the Brute can handle some Psi damage (which can trend towards being overstated anyway).  

Bio Armor can be amazing when designed well.  It does not cap its own resistance easily nor does it soft-cap defenses easily.  You do that through using various IOs.  Bio Armor is far more offensive of a set than Invulnerability is and really should be treated as such.  So while you can cap/soft-cap certain things doesn't necessarily means you should if doing that would otherwise hinder offensive gains elsewhere.  What do I mean by this?  Well, Claws has a few options for taking on resistance debuff procs.  That means you're unlikely fully 6 slot a set into those powers for defensive gains.  That negative resistance is very helpful in allowing your damage type to bypass mitigation of enemies and chew through hit points faster.  Another feature of Bio Armor, kinda like Radiation Armor, is that is also has absorb.  Absorb shields functional like additional hit points and the Bio Armor T9 can apply a pretty significant amount of that.  Its enough that Bio Armor on Scrappers can also be quite durable despite having lower resistances or defenses.  That usually leads me to trying to push recharge on Bio Armor builds as I tend to play it a lot more like Regeneration than say, Willpower.  

In either case, you still need to be somewhat mindful of defense debuffers because neither set is going to completely remove that threat.  However, they both handle additional damage mitigation through direct hit point gain (Invulnerability) or pseudo-hit points (Bio Armor).  

Brute damage is still pretty good even if Scrappers have potential to be faster at it.  Bio Armor includes more damage options and the damage aura is a nice place for the Fury generating ATO.  

[00Troy00]

13 minutes ago, oldskool said:

TL;DR: You may be searching for a resolution without a problem. 

The challenge with Nin is that it can have its defenses stripped by enemies capable of doing that.  The T9 power, while similar to Elude in /SR, gets you some defense debuff resistance.  There is an Ageless variant in Incarnate options that can also provide you with DDR.  Claws/Nin shouldn't need the recovery option from Ageless anyway (it'd probably be nice but perhaps overkill).  

"Painful" on defense-based characters is going to be subjective so please don't feel a need to toss out the baby with the bathwater if you like your Scrapper.  The game has things like resistance inspirations and the like that are intended to pad things out when you need it.  

Now, as for Inv vs Bio and Claws...  I'd prefer Claws on either a Scrapper or Tanker but it isn't horrible on Brutes.  Claws is a really solid set.  

Invul can have an easier time capping resistances and gaining higher defenses than Bio Armor.  That's also true on Scrappers.  Invincibility scales defense on the number of enemies making it very valuable.  Invul's big weakness is Psionic damage but you can find numerous IO options these days to help raise it.  You add on capped or near capped hit points with Dull Pain and the Brute can handle some Psi damage (which can trend towards being overstated anyway).  

Bio Armor can be amazing when designed well.  It does not cap its own resistance easily nor does it soft-cap defenses easily.  You do that through using various IOs.  Bio Armor is far more offensive of a set than Invulnerability is and really should be treated as such.  So while you can cap/soft-cap certain things doesn't necessarily means you should if doing that would otherwise hinder offensive gains elsewhere.  What do I mean by this?  Well, Claws has a few options for taking on resistance debuff procs.  That means you're unlikely fully 6 slot a set into those powers for defensive gains.  That negative resistance is very helpful in allowing your damage type to bypass mitigation of enemies and chew through hit points faster.  Another feature of Bio Armor, kinda like Radiation Armor, is that is also has absorb.  Absorb shields functional like additional hit points and the Bio Armor T9 can apply a pretty significant amount of that.  Its enough that Bio Armor on Scrappers can also be quite durable despite having lower resistances or defenses.  That usually leads me to trying to push recharge on Bio Armor builds as I tend to play it a lot more like Regeneration than say, Willpower.  

In either case, you still need to be somewhat mindful of defense debuffers because neither set is going to completely remove that threat.  However, they both handle additional damage mitigation through direct hit point gain (Invulnerability) or pseudo-hit points (Bio Armor).  

Brute damage is still pretty good even if Scrappers have potential to be faster at it.  Bio Armor includes more damage options and the damage aura is a nice place for the Fury generating ATO.  

I appreciate the effort that went into that answer. Can I trouble you for the names of the IO's and procs you alluded to earlier? I'm not well versed in such things.

[oldskool]

Follow-up can include the Gaussian's Chance to Build-Up.  Focus can include the Decimation: Chance to Build-Up.  Any of the -defense effect attacks (Slash/Eviscerate) can include the Achilles' Heel: Chance for Resistance Debuff.  Any of the Point-Blank AoE power can potentially include a Fury of the Gladiator: Chance for Resistance Debuff.  

Using Follow-Up, Focus, and Slash should be givens within a core attack routine.  Those 3 powers are ideal candidates for including those utility procs as well as any other modifiers you wish to use (i.e., Mako's Bite: Chance for Lethal, Touch of Death: Chance for Negative Damage, etc.). 

[00Troy00]

12 minutes ago, oldskool said:

Follow-up can include the Gaussian's Chance to Build-Up.  Focus can include the Decimation: Chance to Build-Up.  Any of the -defense effect attacks (Slash/Eviscerate) can include the Achilles' Heel: Chance for Resistance Debuff.  Any of the Point-Blank AoE power can potentially include a Fury of the Gladiator: Chance for Resistance Debuff.  

Using Follow-Up, Focus, and Slash should be givens within a core attack routine.  Those 3 powers are ideal candidates for including those utility procs as well as any other modifiers you wish to use (i.e., Mako's Bite: Chance for Lethal, Touch of Death: Chance for Negative Damage, etc.). 

Thank you. I never would've thought of that.

[oldskool]

19 minutes ago, 00Troy00 said:

Thank you. I never would've thought of that.

I didn't mention anything about Bio Armor specifically, sorry.  Other IOs to push defenses can include, but are not limited to: 

 

Both 3% global defense uniques (Steadfast and Gladiator's Armor) 

4 pieces of Unbreakable Guard (for melee defense) in a few resistance powers. 

Splitting up Archtype Origin (ATO) sets to spread various defense bonuses around (e.g., if a 5% bonus exists at 3 pieces you can split between two powers). 

Winter IO sets (e.g., Blistering Cold) often come with large Fire/Cold/AoE defense but some also have melee defense.  This option gets expensive.  

 

There are numerous other sets here and there that could pile on to close defense gaps.  If you view a build as a series of problem solving functions, then you'll find there are a number of ways to get to an outcome.  Some are better than others, of course, and they all require some form of trade off.  Its that value of what you're trading off where personal preferences play a significant role.  Giving up minor defense for quality of life or giving up quality of life for maximum effect.  These can become pretty big questions. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by oldskool

[Gobbledigook]

Personally i would go a claws/invulnerability scrapper.

 

Brutes get a higher damage cap but that is only good if you can reach the 90% anyway. Not all sets do. Invulnerability will have high S/L mitigation on a brute which is nice but then a scrapper has more damage and if its dead it isn't a threat. A brute will not cap the other resists, making the 90% useless anyway.

 

Defence/mitigation values on a Scrapper and Brute are the same.

 

Brutes have a higher health cap which is also nice, especially with Dull pain running.

 

Bio vs Invuln? well Bio is very good and you have the option of going more offensive. I would say it is harder to build though and the clickies can slow dps if you need them a lot. Invulnerability may allow you to build more offensively with Procs. Bio will get it's defences stripped easily whilst invulnerability won't so much due to it having DDR. Bio has some nice heals, but if you aren't hit who needs heals. Both are very good. Invulnerability having the edge on survival.

 

More survival= Brute and Invuln. More damage= Scrapper and Bio. Your choice.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Bill Z Bubba]

I'd like to throw something that wasn't combined by the others.

 

Claws and Bio on a scrapper. Everything dies so quickly that the extra mitigation from Inv becomes unnecessary.

 

When you couple everything mentioned by the others into the mix, and tack on the Scrapper AT IO procs for even higher critical chances, you end up with a beast that can take down a pylon in under two minutes and has an AoE chain that will melt spawns at max diff.

[eSpicy]

I second what Bill Z Bubba said... My Claws/bio can exempt down to any level and steamroll content. It does both great ST and AoE damage. Heck I even soloed a Sutter tf set to +2/8 in under 2 hours. I feel like that's a pretty big accomplishment :D. 

 

[00Troy00]

35 minutes ago, eSpicy said:

I second what Bill Z Bubba said... My Claws/bio can exempt down to any level and steamroll content. It does both great ST and AoE damage. Heck I even soloed a Sutter tf set to +2/8 in under 2 hours. I feel like that's a pretty big accomplishment :D. 

 

Two questions for you and Bill Z:

 

1. I take it you don't think Claws/Inv would do as well?

 

2. How much do each of you have invested in your builds?

[Gobbledigook]

I don't think you can go wrong with either tbh. Both are great.

 

More dps option with Bio or strong survival of invuln. Killing things fast is its own mitigation as Bubba says. It also depends on what mobs you are fighting and what effects they throw at you.

 

Invuln is less clicky and you may like that more.

 

Maybe pick them on a theme/costume because both are very viable.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, 00Troy00 said:

Two questions for you and Bill Z:

 

1. I take it you don't think Claws/Inv would do as well?

 

2. How much do each of you have invested in your builds?

 

It depends on the goal. If you want to be tougher, you go Inv. If you want your damage output to be up in the "unholy frell" range, you go bio. I've got a DM/Inv brute that just doesn't die, but I would never bother going to check his DPS.

 

How expensive are my builds? I'd go with "standard expense for 5 purple sets and a properly considered Mids build." That said, I've run a LOT of Bio users. Some at lowbie levels, some in the 30s with nothing but basic IOs and a Perf Shifter set, some tweaked hard at 50. Bio is pretty dang solid the whole way. Will it ever be as "fark you, you can't kill me" as Inv? No, absolutely not.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Frostweaver]

I would like to suggest that you keep your claws/nin. The combination is very nice at higher levels with better slotting options, and you are already past the hardest part at level 30.

Nin is not the greatest set in the universe, but with 3-4 skippable powers and POSITIONAL defense, you could easily slot in uninterruptible medicine for more healing, leap attack for fast movement between spawns, great slotting potential (+recharge on a slow aoe!) kd mitigation and extra aoe goodies, or even buy all three attacks from the fighting pool to add smashing attacks to your lethal when fighting robots.

Maybe even get something weird like concealment to better control your attack grouping and add a little defense.

Frankly, claws is so fast, and Nin in so little need of recharge-enhanced clickies, That I wouldn't even bother with hasten... just slot in a decent (70%) recharge from IO's and roll with it. Half of your claw attacks just from normal slotting already recharge faster than their animation... and SPIN on scrappers is literally the HIGHEST Aoe DPS in the game.


Start a new Brute. Go savage/Bio for a similar feel and damage. But keep your scrapper... It is absolutely worth keeping.