Monos King & Galaxy Brain's Mastermind Changes

[Monos King]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

You told me (and anyone else reading this thread). I don't think the Pet IOs are a "huge waste" of slots. There certainly is an offense/defense balance, but if a MM is distributing damage taken (via bodyguard mode) every bit of resistance is helping with the amount of damage being delivered to the Mastermind. My math may be off, but I think 6 henchmen in Bodygaurd mode are taking 75% of the damage meant for the MM (in addition to any damage they might take themselves) so resisting that damage is helping keep the MM alive. I'm not oblivious to the fact that the (especially solo) game resolves around dealing damage, I'm just questioning how 'huge' the waste of slots is.

 

I'd also point out that if a MM has a recharge-instensive pet, those pet IOs (including the /Recharge ones... presumably the least 'wasteful' choices) offer a Global Recharge bonus with 4 slots.

It'd be good to look through some of the replies here.

The IOs are pretty disruptive. 

[Twintania]

I've multiple times made my stances on MM issues clear, but for now I want to go through the topic as a whole and add my thoughts to it.

 

• Aggressive Stance: I feel like the End Discount alone would be valuable enough, especially if we can make the personal attacks actually useful.
• Passive Stance: Yes please, make it easier for non-heal based sets to recover to full hp when out of combat. As a side note, is there any way we can make Henchmen Rest when the player does?
• Pet Level: -1 is acceptable if balance is a major issue. I would like them to all be +0 in terms of to hit and defense without messing with the damage, but I am unsure if this would even be possible.
• Pet Movement: I like the idea of a Run Speed boost out of combat. I'm wary about allowing it in-combat, because even with the changes I suspect there'd still be a risk of henchmen flailing out to random places at a moment's loss of control.
• A "Come to Me" command would be helpful with or without the removal of the auto-teleport.
• Pet IO tax: This is my main point of commentary pretty much everywhere. How the Pet IOs are set up right now is, quite frankly, stupid. Let's take a moment to ignore MM specific issues and look at them as a whole. There are five Pet and Recharge Intensive Pet IOs that can be used by many ATs (Controllers and Dominators naturally, a whole lot of ATs, maybe even all others, via the Villain Power Pools) where the Proc is completely useless. What AT besides a MM would even bother slotted +5% defense to henchmen into their pets? Even if we keep the MM ATOs as they are (we shouldn't), the other 5 are objectively bad from a standpoint of every single other pet in the game. Changing the Pet IO and Recharge Pet IO procs to something useful for every AT should be something everyone would want. For the people who actually used them, we could bake the stats into every pet in the game if we felt it was required, but the procs have to change. The proposed changes would remove the slot tax issue while also giving every Pet user more options to work with.
• MM ATOs: Who designed these? What was the logic behind how they are set up? Why would they have put Recharge Reduction into enhancements when the enhancement is basically completely useless to 4 of the 7 MM Primaries? You actually gain less power slotting in Command of the MM over Mark of Supremacy just because of the Recharge. Now, if we allowed these to be slotted into the MMs' primary attacks, it's less of an issue; the recharge makes sense. My opinion of the procs are the same as above, but what they are allowed on do need to be looked at.

 

Continuing on with responses:

• @Redlynne I'm not sure what you are thinking of here. Alternative implemations of invention sets...How? What changes mentioned above are any different than how IOs work now? I'll admit, the first iteration of the slot tax idea was to allow them in the primary attacks (and I would find that minimally acceptable if no other changes were possible, but not ideal), but the idea changed because people didn't want to be "required" to take the attacks.
• @tidge There's actually a lesser bothered with fifth Non-ATO proc that gives Taunt and Placate Resistance, which is so bad that no one remembers it exists. Also, changing how the procs are done with the defenses from the procs build in elsewhere would allow more choices in builds naturally, just by clearing up those as "required"
• The Upgrade powers are inherently weird, and allowing slotting of the auras into them was idea number...2? 3? when I first recall this coming up in the Discord channel. I would like to have at least both the MM ATOs give EndRed instead of one giving Recharge if this was done, but that's a personal taste.
• There's a reason I've advocated that any change to the Pet Auras get put into Supremacy. There's nothing new there. Adding +defense and +Resistance hopefully wouldn't be that difficult. The hard part is finding a good balance of how much, since right now the aura give 30% Resistance, 10% defense to all but AoE, and 25% (total) AoE defense. As fun as it would be, you don't want that sort of thing on a level 1 MM.

• Among other things, you keep trying to take the most convoluted path to achieving the outcome you desire, making everything extremely complex (and thus much more likely to fail, perhaps even spectacularly).  What you need to be looking at are SIMPLE solutions that require only minor tweaks to the existing codebase structure (which is NOT inherently stable to start with!), rather than urban renewals that will slash and burn entire swaths of legacy codebase.  In other words, try to work with WHAT YOU HAVE rather than with what you WISH YOU HAD. Quoting directly, but this just feels particularly demeaning to the idea that these changes are and could be viable. How much of what is listed is that far out of the range of what is already in the game? The stances changes are the only major thing that come to mind, depending on how the auras are handled.

• I would love to have actual support-based attacks. There's a reason Demons is the most commonly recommended one for taking the attacks. It has -Resistance, and that's actually valuable. I would, however, prefer each set to have support that is in sync with the set itself. Just giving blanket debuffs is boring.

• Nope, change them all. As I said above, if need be, buff the non-MM pets to compensate, but I cannot imagine too many people complaining that their pets are now slightly less survivable but get more damage and/or utility.

• "I'd also point out that if a MM has a recharge-instensive pet, those pet IOs (including the /Recharge ones... presumably the least 'wasteful' choices) offer a Global Recharge bonus with 4 slots." I would counter that 4-slot Command of the MM serves as a Recharge Intensive set better than the actual Recharge ones for MMs. It too has a 4-slot Recharge boost, and a better one on top of it.

• The Auras in no way affect Bodyguard mode. No pet Resistances or Defense is counted in the damage they take from it. Only the MM's Resistances are taken into account.

• Yeah, let's not claim that the Henchmen were made to be mules, because that is verifiably not true just by when things were released, but this was discussed below. Claiming they should be used as mules just takes power away from the henchmen, which is kinda what we are trying to avoid.

• I had thought about making the upgrades more or less automatic when you claimed them, but having them be automatic at specific levels while changing the powers hadn't crossed my mind. Hmm. Food for thought.

• Once again, would love useful, viable personal attacks, preferably unique to each MM primary.

• Oh look, it's my post!

 

I think I covered most everything here. I may add more as my thoughts are more collected to clarify some things, but I wanted to get this out as I was going through all this.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Twintania

[Nanolathe]

@Twintania, There's no real reason that they all have to be debuffs, I was just using Robotics as an example. I'd advocate for theme trumping any sort of standardised one-fits-all implementation. Necro having more access to soft control and even hard control powers, Beast having more fortification style powers that use pack mentality, thugs getting melee attacks, mercenaries getting auras... The list goes on and on if you're just willing to think outside the box that the MM has languished in since its inception. If you strip out the two upgrade tax powers then the sky really is the limit. You'd have 5 powers to do with as you please, and really make each theme speak to a different kind of mastermind. If they're done right, then even skipping a pet tier should be a conceivable build option beyond just a jokey challenge. In other power sets there are some very high-priority picks... maybe 4 or 5, and then a lot more room to have a few more, or a few less picks depending on how you want to specialise, or even delaying a power until a level much later than when it unlocks due to a synergy that you can exploit later, but it being more of a burden in the early game. There's not many of those, but I can think of a few.

 

I've come to the realisation that, not only are the upgrade powers a "tax" on playing a Mastermind, but in an odd way, so are the three tiers of pets... in a way. Who here would say a MM build would ever benefit from not taking one of your henchmen powers in favour of nearly anything else, and only rolling with two pet tiers? Would anyone ever delay a henchmen power pick for later than the level it unlocks? Or similarly, the upgrade powers?

 

Outside of extremely odd and almost certainly self-imposed reasons, I can't think of anything I'd say is a legitimate reason to. And that's kinda sad. Deamon's have Whip Crack... but that's about all I can think of for a real honest choice within a MM's build

Edited May 8, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Twintania]

That's why I said "Support" rather than attack. Beasts already do have attacks that support them via giving stacks. It's useful in lower levels before you get the full suite of pet attacks to get your stacks up, but it falls off later, as far as I know.

 

If I had a wishlist for pet attacks. Hmm.

 

Ninja would "mark" a target, giving a short term effect where your Ninja have a (higher) chance to crit the target. Probably not doable, but feels like something Ninja should be able to do. Sort of like a "Kill this guy faster" option that isn't just -resistance.

Demons can keep the -Resists on their whips.

Beasts, in my opinion, are fine as is, but I would like it if the attacks would be allowed to stack Pack Mentality even after using Fortify Pack. Unlikely again.

Bots, frankly, I want Disintegrate built into the set. Other things could be fun, I just think it'd fit here.

Necro, I like the -to hit from the attacks. I think the main issue here is that it's not all that much. I wonder if we could make these lower, unstackable, but unresistable?

Thugs and Mercs I frankly have no idea what to do with.

[Nanolathe]

35 minutes ago, Twintania said:

Ninja would "mark" a target, giving a short term effect where your Ninja have a (higher) chance to crit the target. Probably not doable, but feels like something Ninja should be able to do. Sort of like a "Kill this guy faster" option that isn't just -resistance.

Taking that point and running with it; what if you had a power that is Mark for Death that causes your Jounin to move to, and attack the target, performing a specific power, say, some variant of assassin's strike. The Jounin don't have voluntary access to use this attack unless you specifically command them to do so.

 

What if Mercs had Supressive Fire that causes all your mercs to fire a variant of full auto, that does less damage than a regular burst, but has a high chance of applying a mag1 immobilise (that stacks with each Merc you have). This could be an early power that scales based on the number of Mercs at your command.

 

What if you could tell your Zombies to perform a suicidal attack on an opponent at the click of a button? Run up and puke-slplode on a target.

 

No idea if any of that is possible... forcing the AI to use a specific power at the player's behest... but it's a thought I was mulling over.

 

 

Edit:

... Wait... don't Ninja's have a player controlled commandable power they don't have access to normally? Smoke Flash? Is that a hook we could be using?!

Or is that just an animation override with an applied buff? Is that still interesting enough as a framework to use for more?

Edited May 9, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Redlynne]

59 minutes ago, Twintania said:

• but the idea changed because people didn't want to be "required" to take the attacks.

• Once again, would love useful, viable personal attacks, preferably unique to each MM primary.

These two goals are in opposition.

If the personal attacks are "good" then you're going to "want" to take them (or at least 1 of them), even if the purpose for doing so is as a set mule so you don't have to shoehorn those slots/procs into the Pet powers themselves, allowing you to better slot the Pet powers.

1 hour ago, Twintania said:

• Passive Stance: Yes please, make it easier for non-heal based sets to recover to full hp when out of combat. As a side note, is there any way we can make Henchmen Rest when the player does?

Actually, an idea occurred to me on this front.

 

Why not just make the equip/upgrade powers also have a Heal that only affects Pets of the type summoned by your primary?

Doing that would "solve" the I Can't Heal My Pets problem for a number of Mastermind secondaries, while also opening up additional slotting options (Heal and Heal sets specifically) for slotting into the equip/upgrade powers.  That way, even if your Pets are already buffed, recasting the equip/upgrade powers would serve a useful purpose as a way to help prevent the need to resummon (and re-equip/re-upgrade) damaged Pets.  Could do something like a base 10% of Mastermind HP worth of healing for the Level 6 power and a base 15% of Mastermind HP worth of healing for the Level 32 power ... which with Heal enhancement could go up to some 20% and 30% respectively.

 

Doing that would then give Masterminds a reason to use those powers "more than once" after summoning, thereby making them relevant beyond just being a power pick tax.

35 minutes ago, Twintania said:

Ninja would "mark" a target, giving a short term effect where your Ninja have a (higher) chance to crit the target. Probably not doable, but feels like something Ninja should be able to do. Sort of like a "Kill this guy faster" option that isn't just -resistance.

I mentioned this in the other thread about Ninjas specifically ... but if there's a desire to add an additional effect (beyond just mere Lethal damage) to the Ninja Mastermind personal attacks, I would instead advocate for a "poisoned weapons" thematic where the type of poison used is more of a Slow effect (so -Movement and -Recharge debuffing) which could be enhanced, meaning adding Slow enhancements and Slow sets as options for slotting into those powers.  The idea is to "debilitate" $Targets in a way that makes them easier prey for your Ninjas and less of a threat to them.

 

I would also point out that it makes almost no sense whatsoever for Thugs to get Leadership powers while Mercenaries don't get any.  If anything, I would expect Mercenaries to combine all 3 Leadership toggle powers together.  And given how much "help" Mercenaries need to "get up to par" with other Mastermind primaries, I would honestly advocate for the following:

• T1 Soldiers: Tactics
• T1 Medic: Maneuvers
• T2 Spec Ops: Assault
• T3 Commando: Maneuvers

Note that combination means that with all Pets out you'd get 2x Maneuvers, 2x Assault and 2x Tactics ... which sounds about right (to me, anyway) for Mercenaries, who ought to be professionally trained and disciplined military types.  I'm thinking that kind of buffing ought to help bring Mercenaries closer to where they ought to be.  It would be even better if their Leadership powers applied to all Allies, not just to the Mercenaries themselves.  You could make their Leadership buffing be ¹/₂ to ³/₄ what the Mastermind's own Leadership toggles buff values would be (so as to not overshadow the Mastermind entirely) but it would mean that Mercenaries would be more ... predisposed ... towards having Masterminds who take Leadership toggles in addition to what the Mercenaries themselves bring simply as a matter of synergy.

[Twintania]

I need to learn how to multiquote, but...

 

• I want useful primary attacks. The conversation at the time wanted to not make them required (via aura slotting). I get it's conflicting, I'm just going by the timeline I have for the conversations. Sorry if this were confusing.
• I like this idea. Might need to do something about the Endurance Costs, but this would be a viable and valuable use for otherwise seldom used powers.
• I'd be perfectly fine with the Ninja idea here, though I feel Mercs need the damage type changes more, since Ninja at least have the Oni for damage variety.
• Agreed, Mercs should have Leadership, and I like the idea of theirs buffing everything rather than just the Mercs (Or just Thugs, like Enforcers). My original thought was giving the Commando the full suite of them, but your idea works as well.

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

That'd make 3 primaries that just have leadership as their bread and butter, or at least the equivalent with the Howls that beasts can give each other. With Thugs already having straight-up leadership, I'd rather have each primary still have unique attributes like the Field Specialist and Spec Ops changes providing layered defenses for the set.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Monos King]

50 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

would also point out that it makes almost no sense whatsoever for Thugs to get Leadership powers while Mercenaries don't get any.  If anything, I would expect Mercenaries to combine all 3 Leadership toggle powers together.  And given how much "help" Mercenaries need to "get up to par" with other Mastermind primaries, I would honestly advocate for the following:

I've been trying to avoid giving soldiers leadership like thugs; monotony is my enemy. I always rationed that thugs were aimless and unfocused, thus leadership was appropriate, whereas the soldiers have self-sufficiency and thus don't benefit from leadership beyond the Supremacy. That's just my own stretching in-game explanation.

 

The meta explanation is that thugs don't get resistances so they get to benefit from something else. Soldiers don't really need leadership toggles as much, though we did want to see them receive vengeance.

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, Twintania said:

I need to learn how to multiquote

Two ways you can do it.

 

One is to just quote button the entire post and then edit the contents of the quoted section to only keep what you're needing to reply to.  Then for the next bit, you quote the entire post again and edit down again (differently this time) to only the part you're replying to for the second bit.

 

The other way is to highlight what you're wanting to quote in someone else's post and you'll be given a pop-up Quote option which will quote only the part of the post you've got highlighted.  Wash, rinse, repeat as you reply to different quoted bits.

1 hour ago, Twintania said:

I need to learn how to multiquote

Trust me ... it's not that hard.  You can do it too.

[tidge]

[Nowea]

I apologize in advance for any statements made that are obvious. Including them helps me organize thoughts. In addition, I suffer from frequent alt-itis and poor decision making that has caused me to not keep any character around past the low 30s so it's entirely possible I'm off base as I'm going off what the MM 'feels' like it was supposed to be.

MM Primary powersets seem to break down as follows:
3 Direct Damage Powers that are mostly useless
3 Minion summons as the bread and butter
2 "Equip" powers, that the player simply clicks once each time they summon minions
1 "Other" power (that I gather is of varied utility and usefulness)

The issue that comes to mind immediately here for me... The MM doesn't meaningfully interact with their primary powers while actually playing. You summon before combat (maybe during if it's worth resummoning corpses)... 'equip' as tedious 'bookkeeping' before combat...

This is where the adjustments can be made, and adjustments should be made based on what the MM is supposed to DO. The MM HAS pets that (in the end) are a means to an end of damage/support/control/whatever. The MM seems to be intended as a Damage + Support character that provides said damage and support through their pets. The MM could be a great character for dynamically 'sliding' between Support and Damage as the situation needs

Idea 1: Change the Equip powers so that the added abilities automatically apply to minions as long as you have the power learned. There is precedent for this with abilities such as Field Medic (where simply having power <x> modifies power <y>). We still want the player to actively make decisions in clicking the button, so the low level equip power could be changed to a (0 cost?) toggle that lowers the damage of minions while significantly boosting the secondary effects of the abilities that they have (such as a Zombie/Lich -ToHit or Grave Knight's -Defense). The high level equip power could then become a major cooldown that varies based on the primary and is heavily focused on the theme of each Primary.

Idea 2: Allow the direct damage powers to be solid damage that also helps your pets' damage output specifically. For example: Thugs and Mercenaries could simply get a +Dam/+Acc boost for a few seconds after each use of the direct damage ability along with a boost to resistance to fear effects (basically acting as a 'morale' boost for their leader fighting alongside them). Enemies defeated shortly after being hit by a Necromancer's direct damage could allow their minions to 'feed' on the souls/energy/whatever of the fallen foe for some sort of relevant boost. Beast Mastery could even grant the Scourge perk (or a weakened version of it) for a short time for pets that are attacking the same target (imagine it as a sort of 'blood in the water' theme as the animals want to go for the kill).

Edited May 9, 2020 by Nowea

[Galaxy Brain]

@Nanolathe, @Redlynne, @Nowea, I think we have a cool wavelength picked up here in regards to the upgrade powers themselves.

 

If possible to make owning the power simply grant the upgrades on summon, perhaps the actual upgrade powers could do something new when used? Could be a heal, defense boost, an attack around the targeted pet, just something....

 

I also like the idea behind a morale boost while attacking. I think many of us were focused on the attacks providing debuffs, that the idea of them providing group buffs kind of went under the radar!

Edited May 10, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Redlynne]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Could be a heal

Which is needed for something like almost half the secondaries that don't have heal powers in them.

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

defense boost

I'm leery of this one, simply because of how powers work (it gets really wonky under the hood).  It's also something that can potentially upset the balance that we've got.

3 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

an attack around the targeted pet

NO.  That would upset the balance that we've got.

[Galaxy Brain]

Moreso just throwing out ideas at the wall. Something talked about today in the MM discord is that at higher level MM gameplay can potentially get a bit boring depending on the sets as there is little to do with the pets themselves, or as the MM. Having more actions to perform in the primary could help with this, and the upgrades seem like a good spot.

[Redlynne]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

Moreso just throwing out ideas at the wall. Something talked about today in the MM discord is that at higher level MM gameplay can potentially get a bit boring depending on the sets as there is little to do with the pets themselves, or as the MM. Having more actions to perform in the primary could help with this, and the upgrades seem like a good spot.

This is definitely true.

Mastermind primary powersets are basically 5 Fire And Forget powers, 3 powers that hardly anyone (besides me) takes, and 1 power that is either ridiculously terrible (Serum) or beyond powerset defining (Gang War).  Of those, only one will tend to see repeated use ... maybe ... unless if you're (maybe) taking the personal attacks (like I do now).

 

This was DEFINITELY a factor for me playing a Ninja/Time Mastermind in Nova Praetoria and on into Imperial.  The first build plans I made followed the "personal attacks are worthless" mentality meaning that my Mastermind play was essentially something of a spectator sport.  The Ninjas did all the work and I got to /em cheer for them and then heal them when the fights were over.

 

To put it mildly, IT WAS BORING!!!!

And yes, I played a Ninja Mastermind to 50 and Incarnates back on Virtue (as a Villain), so I had an idea what it would be like, having done it before.  But ... yeah ... with nothing to do but play buff/debuff bot to my Pets, it just wasn't that engaging to play.  It was also frustrating to try and pull $Targets into my Ninjas, so as to fight on MY ground rather than on THEIRS, because I only had 2 ranged attacks with recharge times that didn't make for good attack cycles ... Mystic Amulet and Blackwand (my Ninja Mastermind is Magic origin, so thematics).  But I found that the way that I was playing (and more importantly, the way I WANTED TO PLAY) meant that I needed fast cycling ranged attacks in order to consistently pull $Targets to my position while soloing AND be able to pour some damage into them while they closed the distance.

 

That then led me to actually seriously consider putting the 3 personal attacks into my build (see: "It's a BOW Time") and from the very first mission I played with the personal attacks in use I fell in love with having those personal attacks at my disposal.  Combat became "snappier" and MUCH more engaging to play(!) in addition to having a ranged attack cycle opening up an entire new world of tactics and strategy that had been denied to me when I was playing Just A Buffbot™ for my Ninjas.  It's really hard to describe both the dynamism and the broad ranging paradigm shift that happens when you use personal attacks as a standard tactic in fights to supplement the damage output of your Pets.  It's one of those things that has to be seen to be believed (and I'd be willing to demo the dynamics if someone would like to "tag along" on a mission where I can both show and tell what I'm doing) since it's really a holistic paradigm shift of HOW to play a Mastermind.  If we could upload gameplay videos, I'd be tempted to find out how I could perhaps manage it, since it really is that game changing as far as enjoyment in playing goes.

 

So, definitely, you want to be looking at how to leverage the primary powers (aside from the summons) in such a way as to make it desirable to use them more than just the once (equip/upgrade) or simply not at all (personal attacks).

[Galaxy Brain]

Now, if we didnt have as harsh a penalty to end when actually using the attacks.... 

[Nowea]

if possible, I feel that making whatever the Equip Powers become and any extra effects put on the primary attacks would be things that only benefit the MM and their pets (directly). This allows the abilities to be balanced around being stronger, prevents the abilities from just becoming "More support abilities" (as the MM already has access to these in their secondary), and reinforces the importance of the pets. Ideally, I feel that a MM should be a viable damage character (not strongest, but respectable) just from using their primary set abilities

6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Now, if we didnt have as harsh a penalty to end when actually using the attacks.... 

Of all things, lowering the end cost of these abilities is the easiest thing to do 😛

[Nanolathe]

5 hours ago, Nowea said:

Of all things, lowering the end cost of these abilities is the easiest thing to do 😛

Which will lower the damage as a consequence, as damage is a calculated number based on a power's endurance cost and recharge time (and probably other factors), multiplied by the AT's damage scale, rather than something input directly. Apparently this damage-as-derived-number is a real pain to work around. Or at least that's what I've always been under the impression of being the case having lurked on the old forums, and here. 

 

Masterminds have the lowest* damage scale for Melee and Ranged damage at 0.550 a piece. Same as Controllers, except a Mastermind's 3 personal attacks don't benefit from all that fancy control.

 

*that is actually called for calculation. Technically Scrappers, Tankers and Brutes have a lower AT damage scale for ranged attacks. But as melee ATs, these are never called into calculation. Ranged attacks that the melee AT's have access to, use the ATs melee damage scale, bizarrely.  🙃

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

Which will lower the damage as a consequence, as damage is a calculated number based on a power's endurance cost and recharge time (and probably other factors), multiplied by the AT's damage scale, rather than something input directly. Apparently this damage-as-derived-number is a real pain to work around. Or at least that's what I've always been under the impression of being the case having lurked on the old forums, and here. 

 

Masterminds have the lowest* damage scale for Melee and Ranged damage at 0.550 a piece. Same as Controllers, except a Mastermind's 3 personal attacks don't benefit from all that fancy control.

 

*that is actually called for calculation. Technically Scrappers, Tankers and Brutes have a lower AT damage scale for ranged attacks. But as melee ATs, these are never called into calculation. Ranged attacks that the melee AT's have access to, use the ATs melee damage scale, bizarrely.  🙃

Masterminds also have a 20% higher endurance multiplier that no other AT has, and is seperate to the damage formula aside from boosting the resulting end cost. 

[Nanolathe]

8 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Masterminds also have a 20% higher endurance multiplier that no other AT has, and is seperate to the damage formula aside from boosting the resulting end cost. 

Conceived as a compensating force against the "free" damage they get from their pets, no doubt.

[Redlynne]

4 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

Which will lower the damage as a consequence, as damage is a calculated number based on a power's endurance cost and recharge time (and probably other factors), multiplied by the AT's damage scale, rather than something input directly. Apparently this damage-as-derived-number is a real pain to work around. Or at least that's what I've always been under the impression of being the case having lurked on the old forums, and here.

Well ... that's something that we can empirically cross compare and check, right?

 

Archery is the powerset that contains Snap Shot, Aimed Shot and Fistful of Arrows as used by Ninja Masterminds (I'm picking this example because it's easy).

Archery is a powerset for Blasters, Corruptors, Defenders and Masterminds (and Sentiels, but they don't appear on City of Data so I'm not using them for this cross comparison).

Quote

Blaster Archery

Archery	Lvl	Acc	Dmg	Act	Int	Cast	Rch	End	Rng	Radius	Arc	Area
Snap Shot	1	1.155	0.84	-	-	1s	2s	3.536	80ft	-	-	Character
Aimed Shot	1	1.155	1.32	-	-	1.67s	6s	5.2	80ft	-	-	Character
Fistful of Arrows	2	1.155	0.91	-	-	1.17s	8s	8.528	50ft	50ft	30°	Cone

 

Corruptor Archery

Archery	Lvl	Acc	Dmg	Act	Int	Cast	Rch	End	Rng	Radius	Arc	Area
Snap Shot	1	1.155	0.68	-	-	1s	2s	3.536	80ft	-	-	Character
Aimed Shot	1	1.155	1	-	-	1s	4s	5.2	80ft	-	-	Character
Fistful of Arrows	2	1.155	0.91	-	-	1.17s	8s	8.528	40ft	40ft	30°	Cone

 

Defender Archery

Archery	Lvl	Acc	Dmg	Act	Int	Cast	Rch	End	Rng	Radius	Arc	Area
Snap Shot	1	1.155	0.68	-	-	1s	2s	3.536	80ft	-	-	Character
Aimed Shot	2	1.155	1	-	-	1s	4s	5.2	80ft	-	-	Character
Fistful of Arrows	4	1.155	0.91	-	-	1.17s	8s	8.528	40ft	40ft	30°	Cone

 

(Ninja) Mastermind Archery

Ninjas	Lvl	Acc	Dmg	Act	Int	Cast	Rch	End	Rng	Radius	Arc	Area
Snap Shot	1	1.155	0.68	-	-	1s	2s	4.42	80ft	-	-	Character
Aimed Shot	2	1.155	1	-	-	1s	4s	6.5	80ft	-	-	Character
Fistful of Arrows	8	1.155	0.91	-	-	1.17s	8s	10.66	40ft	40ft	30°	Cone

So if we summarize that to make (useful) cross comparisons between archetypes, we come to the following conculsions:

 

Snap Shot Damage ... 0.84 / 0.68 / 0.68 / 0.68

Aimed Shot Damage ... 1.32 / 1.00 / 1.00 / 1.00

Fistful of Arrows Damage ... 0.91 / 0.91 / 0.91 / 0.91

 

So Blasters get a damage BONUS on Snap Shot (+23.5%) and Aimed Shot (+32%) but everyone is roughly equal on damage multipliers for Fistful of Arrows.  Other than that discrepancy for Blasters (because they're Blasters, so it makes sense), the Damage Multiplier for Corruptors, Defenders and (Ninja) Mastermind Archery are all exact duplicates of each other, so no discrepancies at all.

 

Now we can take a look at the endurance costs.

 

Snap Shot Endurance Costs ... 3.536 / 3.536 / 3.536 / 4.42

Aimed Shot Endurance Costs ... 5.2 / 5.2 / 5.2 / 6.5

Fistful of Arrows Endurance Costs ... 8.528 / 8.528 / 8.528 / 10.66

 

So the endurance costs are exactly the same for Blasters, Corruptors and Defenders while Masterminds are PENALIZED relative to the other archetypes while having exactly the same damage multiplier as Corruptors and Defenders.  How much of a penalty?

4.42 / 3.536 = 1.25

6.5 / 5.2 = 1.25

10.66 / 8.528 = 1.25

 

Answer ... a +25% endurance cost penalty across the board ... because ... (flawed and bad) reasons?

4 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

Which will lower the damage as a consequence, as damage is a calculated number based on a power's endurance cost and recharge time (and probably other factors), multiplied by the AT's damage scale, rather than something input directly. Apparently this damage-as-derived-number is a real pain to work around. Or at least that's what I've always been under the impression of being the case having lurked on the old forums, and here.

Well, if the damage as derived number formulas were being OBEYED WITHOUT FAVORITISM (which they're not for Masterminds) then one of two things ought to happen.

 

Either the damage multiplier for Mastermind personal attacks needs to be INCREASED by +25% across the board so as to produce damage commensurate with the ACTUAL endurance costs as already implemented (I would favor this interpretation, actually).  So endurance costs stay at +25% and Mastermind personal attacks do +25% more damage per power than they are right now.

 

... OR ...

 

The damage multiplier stays the same and the +25% endurance cost PENALTY gets removed from Mastermind personal attacks.

 

Here's what those two interpretations of what ought to happen would look like in practice:

 

LEGACY

Ninjas	Lvl	Acc	Dmg	Act	Int	Cast	Rch	End	Rng	Radius	Arc	Area
Snap Shot	1	1.155	0.68	-	-	1s	2s	4.42	80ft	-	-	Character
Aimed Shot	2	1.155	1	-	-	1s	4s	6.5	80ft	-	-	Character
Fistful of Arrows	8	1.155	0.91	-	-	1.17s	8s	10.66	40ft	40ft	30°	Cone

 

+25% Damage adjustment

Ninjas	Lvl	Acc	Dmg	Act	Int	Cast	Rch	End	Rng	Radius	Arc	Area
Snap Shot	1	1.155	0.85	-	-	1s	2s	4.42	80ft	-	-	Character
Aimed Shot	2	1.155	1.25	-	-	1s	4s	6.5	80ft	-	-	Character
Fistful of Arrows	8	1.155	1.375	-	-	1.17s	8s	10.66	40ft	40ft	30°	Cone

 

+25% Endurance Penalty removed

Ninjas	Lvl	Acc	Dmg	Act	Int	Cast	Rch	End	Rng	Radius	Arc	Area
Snap Shot	1	1.155	0.68	-	-	1s	2s	3.536	80ft	-	-	Character
Aimed Shot	2	1.155	1	-	-	1s	4s	5.2	80ft	-	-	Character
Fistful of Arrows	8	1.155	0.91	-	-	1.17s	8s	8.528	40ft	40ft	30°	Cone

 

 

 

As mentioned above, my personal preference would be to keep the "endurance penalty" and just "raise the damage multiplier" on the attacks for Masterminds so as to make Mastermind personal attacks FOLLOW THE FORMULA that computes damage per endurance cost, rather than being an (obvious) outlier from it.  That way you "pay more" to use them, but you "get more" from using them(!) ... rather than paying something for nothing (essentially).

 

In terms of actual damage throughput, here's how much that +25% damage across the board would mean comparing Blasters, Corruptors, Defenders and Masterminds:

 

Blaster

Snap Shot: 52.55 Lethal damage (PvE) AND +6.6% Dmg(All Types) for 8.5s

Aimed Shot: 82.58 Lethal damage (PvE) AND +11% Dmg(All Types) for 9.17s

Fistful of Arrows: 56.93 Lethal damage (PvE) AND +3.2% Dmg(All Types) for 8.67s

 

Corruptor

Snap Shot: 28.36 Lethal damage (PvE) AND chance to Scourge for 28.36 Lethal damage (PvE)

Aimed Shot: 41.71 Lethal damage (PvE) AND chance to Scourge for 41.71 Lethal damage (PvE)

Fistful of Arrows: 37.95 Lethal damage (PvE) AND chance to Scourge for 37.95 Lethal damage (PvE)

 

Defender

Snap Shot: 24.58 Lethal damage (PvE)

Aimed Shot: 36.15 Lethal damage (PvE)

Fistful of Arrows: 32.89 Lethal damage (PvE)

 

Mastermind

Snap Shot: 20.8 Lethal damage (PvE) changes to 26 Lethal damage (PvE)

Aimed Shot: 30.59 Lethal damage (PvE) changes to 38.2375 Lethal damage (PvE)

Fistful of Arrows: 27.83 Lethal damage (PvE) changes to 34.7875 Lethal damage (PvE)

 

 

 

So ... in aggregate and in total ... IF the +25% endurance PENALTY to Masterminds is KEPT AS IS ... IF ... but Masterminds are COMPENSATED for that increase in endurance cost over baseline by doing +25% MORE DAMAGE, so as to keep the damage per endurance formula "working properly" and not penalize Masterminds in return for nothing ... THEN ... Masterminds would be doing only slightly more damage per attack than Defenders (when not factoring Vigilance among other things), but Masterminds would be "paying for that privilege" in the higher endurance costs that they've always had assigned to them (in other words, Masterminds wouldn't be doing more damage "for free" according to the damage per endurance formula).

 

By the way ... how much more damage would Masterminds be outputting per attack, in terms of raw/absolute damage numbers, than a Defender would?  Well ...

Sanp Shot: 26 / 24.58 = +5.78% per attack at a +25% endurance cost per attack

Aimed Shot: 38.2375 / 36.15 = +5.78% per attack at a +25% endurance cost per attack

Fistful of Arrows: 34.7875 / 32.89 = +5.77% per attack at a +25% endurance cost per attack

 

So ... rounding error more (less than +6%), but still at a higher endurance cost than what Defenders have to pay for the same attack powers (and that's before adding in the effects of Vigilance which buffs damage while also buffing endurance reduction when soloing).  So ... yeah ... keeping the +25% endurance penalty while raising damage by +25% to compensate and bring the damage per endurance formula back into force would STILL leave Defenders in a superior position relative to Masterminds (their damage per endurance cost is still cheaper!) and Defenders still get bigger buff values (Leadership: Assault I'm looking at you) and so on, so Masterminds would still be essentially "last" in damage production via personal attacks, but they wouldn't be quite so RIDICULOUSLY BADLY LAST because they're trying to run a marathon race weighed down with 25 lbs of lead weights FOR NO GOOD REASON while everyone else running in the race isn't similarly penalized.

 

However, the primary reason why I prefer to raise the damage multiplier for the Mastermind attacks, rather than reduce the endurance cost to match the baseline of the other Archetypes is because allowing the Mastermind to do more damage per attack will allow them to "contribute more" via their personal attacks, quickening Time To Defeat for $Targets and also aiding with the Threat Formula for determining who has (and holds onto) aggro, since damage dealt is a pretty major component of THAT formula.  By doing +25% more damage per attack (at the already enforced +25% endurance cost) Masterminds will be better able to Tankermind and hold aggro while their Pets do damage to $Targets.  So you get a synergy of engagement effects in that a shorter combat time reduces the damage taken by your Pets, meaning less healing needed for them and better survival rates, while also increasing the ability of the Mastermind to draw (and keep) aggro on themselves simply by doing +25% more damage per personal attack use than they are capable of doing right now.

1 hour ago, Nanolathe said:

Conceived as a compensating force against the "free" damage they get from their pets, no doubt.

Right idea.

Wrong implementation.

 

So as I hope I've demonstrated (with like, maths and everything) up above, I'm of the opinion that the best way to "undo" the Endurance Penalty that Masterminds are FORCED to pay for their personal attacks is to simply allow their personal attacks to do more damage per attack than the same power would do for other Archetypes when using the same parameters ... however, because of the way the multipliers and factors work, this merely brings Mastermind personal attacks up to par with Defenders without overshadowing Defenders (who remain far more "efficient" with their powersets).  Additionally, Masterminds only have three of the attacks from the powersets of other Archetypes, and those three attacks tend to be the T1, T2 and T3(ish) attack powers from those other powersets (as seen here with Archery).

 

Or to put it another way ... it's not as if Ninja Masterminds get access to Rain of Arrows ... while all of the other Archetypes that can use Archery do get access to Rain of Arrows.

 

 

---

 

 

So ... TL;DR ...

 

Raise the damage multiplier on the Mastermind personal attacks by +25% so as to compensate Masterminds for the +25% endurance cost penalty on their personal attacks ... and we're golden.

 

By my count that would involve editing 21 fields in an excel spreadsheet for the 7 Mastermind primary powersets.  I'd like to think that could be accomplished in less than 20 minutes by someone who knows what they're doing (and why).  Heck, we could even do the necessary calculations for it here in the forums (I mean, I've already done 3 of them here in this post ... so you'd only need 18 more for the other 6 primary powersets!).  In other words, it wouldn't even be that hard to actually do.

 

City of Data link to Mastermind Archetype

 

 

 

And I'll just leave this here as inspiration for this effort.

 

 

---

 

 

Your turn.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Redlynne

[Nanolathe]

Interesting. That means the damage scales on ol' Paragon Wiki are woefully out of date. Or there's something else going on under the hood that I'm not aware of... but it's probably the former. Good to know. Kudos for the legwork @Redlynne

 

[Galaxy Brain]

6 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

Interesting. That means the damage scales on ol' Paragon Wiki are woefully out of date. Or there's something else going on under the hood that I'm not aware of... but it's probably the former. Good to know. Kudos for the legwork @Redlynne

 

The damage scales are correct, it's just the output does get tweaked afterwards for many sets/powers/ATs 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Nanolathe]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The damage scales are correct, it's just the output does get tweaked afterwards fir many sets/powers/ATs 

To arrive at what would be the "same" damage. How painfully convoluted. Good old CoH.