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Monos King

The Mastermind Wishlist: Completed, Uncut, and En Masse

Enhancement Extension: For the below, assume the ATO def/res aura's will be installed into Supremacy scaling up to level 50.  

50 members have voted

  1. 1. What Changes to MM ATO's would you prefer?

    • None, fine as are.
    • Change the Aura's into damage procs
    • Change the Aura's into debuff procs
    • Change the Aura's into pet debuff res procs
    • Allow to be slotted into attacking primary powers
    • Do not prefer any listed suggestions.
  2. 2. What Changes to existing MM Aura procs would you prefer?

    • None, fine as are.
    • Change auras into damage procs
    • Change auras into debuff procs
    • Change auras into pet debuff res procs
    • Include damage proc
    • Include a debuff proc
    • Include a debuff res proc
    • Do not prefer any listed suggestions.
  3. 3. What Mastermind IO's would you like to see added?

    • None, fine as are.
    • Posting suggestion in the thread!


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Posted (edited)

The time is now! After fully re-attuning myself to the mastermind experience after all these years, and seeing countless complaints and suggestions from fellow players as to how to advance the experience, here is the total compilation of mastermind needs. That's right, needs. Because despite the zeal of the titular concept above, at least one player finds one of these to be of utmost import. However, there are some higher priority suggetions, at least from my perspective, and so I will be color coding the urgency of certain submissions as follows:

Ultimate Priority -1

High Priority -2

Moderate Priority -3

Highly Reccomended -4

Topic-for-Thought -5

Community Inspired -6

UPDATE: Now includes popular suggestions from within and outside of the thread (with credit given) in green. The Wishlist is a catalogue with additional links detailing full potential reworks of Mastermind Primaries.  Visit this thread to find the full extent of the primary changes:

 

Spoiler

 

 

This thread will be categorized by Cosmetic, Specific Primary Sets, Specific Secondary Sets, Enhancement Sets, and Miscellanious. Priority is not divided by category; there can be a Ultimate Priority QoL suggestion and a T-f-T enhancement one. Each suggestion will exist to address one or more shortcomings within the category, which will be discussed at the end. While there will be some inadvertant aversions of topic in this thread, I won't be repeating many suggestions from my last threads. Suggestions are not inherently mutually inclusive; some of these would be great together but others are similar enough to clash or are alternate options, and thus stand on their own. Now that all is in order, let us begin.

 

Miscellanious

  • Increase all pets to share casters experience level, from level 1 onwards. Swarm pets (Posse, Living Hellfire, Nanites?) will maintain the -1 level differential.
  • Add the aura buffs from ATOs to Supremacy, rising in effectiveness from level 15-50 until it is at the same strength as they are now (credit to Everfreefire, et al. for this one)
  • Remove aura buffs from Expedient Reinforcement & Sovereign Right; proliferate to the t4 and t9 pet upgrades with a new enhancement set category "Upgrade Integral Pets" or "Equippable Pets" which will include a proc for pet debuff res. Arachnos' Order: Defense/10% Recovery Resistance or concept of that nature. Equippable Aura Def and Res buffs would be  enhanceable, but lowered by 0.5% and 4% respectively. (Now High Priority) 
    • EX: Equip Thug gives +8 def base. Upgrade Equipment gives +16 res base. Adding the Upgrade Integral Pets Proc would increase these to 9.85 and 18.54 without boosters.
  • T9 Pet Upgrades offer set-themed buffs
    • Mercs get range or acc (not to-hit) increase
    • Thugs get range or rech increase
    • Zombies get speed increase
    • etc
  • Significantly reduce mastermind attack powers endurance costs across the board (Credit @plainguy )

 

Zombies

  • Improve Wraith AI to use Necroplasmic Grasp when not damaged (rarely does)
  • Make Wraith share level of caster 
  • Remove Grave Knight Toxic res, add smash or lethal or both (they are knights)
  • Grant Lich Containment 
  • Grant Lich Self Soul Extraction (thematic, maintains Lich's support role)
  • Give lich proper zombie resistances (aside from psionic res)
  • Give Grave Knights Slice remove Dark Blast @ajlee209 
  • Enable Critical Modifier in PvP (Various)
  • Allow Soul Extraction to be usable on enemies corresponding to their rank the type of Ghost (with AVs and GMs spawning either Wraith or multiple Wraiths) (Various)
  • Increase cone radius for Zombie vomit (Various)

 

Zombies are an effective set, but certain thematic upgrades are in order to prevent the lack of damage resulting from the boss pet being a controller from causing it to fall behind other sets strengths. Obviously not all sets will hit as hard as others, or even hard at all, but Lich has been known to feel lacking as a pet when not coupled with a res or def support secondary. These will offset that and give further control potential so its greatest strength compares to the trumps of others.

 

Mercenaries

  • Convert Serum into an augmented Adrenalin Boost + Fortitude
    • Remove End Crash, Add high -def and moderate -res
    • 800% regeneration, recovery
    • 25% dmg, to hit
    • 25% def
    • Remaining Adrenalin Boost/ Fortitude stats
    • Stealths Spec Ops
    • Last 1 minute, recharges in 7
  • Weaken Serum's stats, remove crash, turn into an AoE (Credit Rosewire)
  • Spec Ops adds random moderate stackable debuff when stealthed (debuff crits)
    • Stealthed SCAR Snipe has chance to secondary effect debuff
  • Medic loses Frag Grenade, Granted Triage
  • Commando loses buckshot Granted Willie Pete Round
  • Commando LRM Rifle recharge reduced to 1 minute 30 sec, damage buffed, AI uses in combat often
  • Give LRM Rifle a fire patch (Credit @shadowrex )
  • LRM Rifle tagged as "snipe" for enhancement category

 

Commandos LRM Rifle is obscenely underwhelming, being 4 minutes in recharge, long cast, and weak. And Serum is easily the worst mastermind power available, with buffs easily provding the benefits it has without the existing debuff that undermines these very buffs. Being smash/lethal damage, soldiers do nearly no damage at all, and should be given additional means to circumvent this great weakness through heals, debuff, and at least one pet that is actually damage impressive. 

 

Demons

  • Ember Demon AI Prioritize Group Healing In Combat
  • Ember Demon needs to prioritize group healing in combat
  • Ember Demon should use Abyssal Reconstruction more often
  • Ember Demon Abyssal Reconstruction upgrade max target from 8 to 30
  • Hellfire Gargoyle Hellfire Smash should add -res like its other moves
  • Let Hell on Earth accept to-hit IOs
  • Please fix ember demon heal

 

Demons are my mastermind main, so I'm really ardent on this one: Ember Demon needs to use its heal more often! Demons are a great set, with no shortcomings in its intended affinities, and so I would simply ask that the support pet do what it's meant to do. Ember Demon almost never uses Abyssal Reconstruction in combat, which is troublesome considering it's low damage being supplemented by its role as healer. More importantly, the extremely small target cap means the use of Hell On Earth immediately prevents either the caster or main pets from being healed due to the surplus of additional targets.

 

Thugs

  • Functionally Perfect
  • Gaussian's Proc in enforcers (see enhancement section)

 

Robots

  • Nanites upgrade
    • Replace nanite heal with nanite support pets summoned similarly to Hell on Earth
    • Spawns nanite colony around selected pet, increasing recovery and max health of selected pet
    • Nanites offer group pet percent heal over time which increases with each nanite spawned (10)
    • Nanites last for 1.5 minutes
    • Recharge 6 minutes
    • *Credit to @Rosewire @AgentForest* Create a toggle that summons two little floating drones, zapping nearby bots with healing rays
    • Rays heal via priority health to pets, heal user when pets are full

Robots are functionally perfect, and simply had a worthless power that was in dire need of upgrade. The new power can act as an IO holster for the aura procs, and mitigate need for aid other in those that role non-heal supports (though they may still want it as nanites will recharge slow and can be killed).

 

Ninjas

  • Give all ninjas increased defense from inherent Resistance
  • Add moderate lethal and minor smash res to all ninjas inherent Resistance 
  • Add minor defense resistance to all ninjas inherent Resistance
  • Re-evaluate Smoke Bombs endurance cost and recharge appropriately *Credit @Unknown Magi  
  • Offer Jounin Explosive Shuriken with increased recharge
  • @kelika2 Personal attacks changed from bow abilities to Minor, moderate, and AoE Shuriken throws 
  • Add a moderate but short lasting, low radius Defense buff AoE to Smokebomb

 

Ninjas, despite their theme, have the lowest unbuffed defense of the pets that offer it, paling in comparison to bots force field and thugs leadership. While it is appropriate that it not be as high as the formers' buff-granted defenses, they should at the very least approach it; while having unique strengths of their own and resistances worthy of the combat practiced elite that they are.

 

Beast Mastery

  • Functionally Perfect
  • Ensure all debuffs have appropriate IOs slottable
  •  Give t1 and t2 pets a longer reched, high damage attack *Credit @Kinvesu*
  • Increase likelihood Beasts use their group buffs in combat (or simply allow them to if they cannot)
  • Ensure all bites and claw swipes offer DoT or a chance for DoT (some do not)

 

This last point brings us to the enhancement category which is of vast importance. 

 

Masterminds have been struggling to find IO compatibility for what feels like eons, desperately dispensing pets with little end-game enhancement backing. While masterminds, like any class, will be fine once maximized through incarnates and the lot, the reward and efficiency from enhancements is both limiting and necessary to the extent that upgrading the class can feel like litte more than a catalog of constraints. Not surprisingly, I've seen many become disinterested in the archetype as a result. Here are some suggestions (and a few definite must fixs) to help brighten up that dismay.

 

  • Return player proc to Soulbound Allegiance

Debuffers such as cold and therm with the knowledge have found GREAT utility in the ability to have a minor build up through the faculties of their own build, with no outside source. The Boost Up from Soulbound is definitely nothing new or unique, but was a surefire assurance that your next Heat Exhaustion or Benumb or Weaken was going to hit your elusive opponent. This was true of both PvP as well as PvE instances.

  •  Return pet proc to Gaussian's when placed into a pet with +to hit

These last two were changes recently added to the beta server, and they really need to be reverted as quickly as possible. Mastermind IO advantage was hyper low before, and this change removes a cherished, long recognized benefit to powers that thug users have benefitted from for ages. Enforcers gaining the boost up proc was considered integral and removing it without warning or request was truly silly. This one NEEDs to come back.

  • Ensure pets can be slotted with all appropriate IOs
    • Bruiser slottable for hold enhancement sets
    • Dire Wolf slottable for slow
    • Commando slottable for snipe, knockback
    • etc.

Some of these not working might be glitches, but the fact that they haven't been permitted for ages has hurt IO viability for masterminds. Including the corresponding enhancement categories for all pets will improve the issue at hand greatly.

 

  • Install the "Upgrade Integral Pets" enhancement category w/ proposals
    • Arachnos' Order | Rare Defense enhancement set with Defense/10% Recovery Resistance proc (on user)
    • Roar of the Devoured | Rare Resistance enhancement set Resistance/10% Mez Resistance (on user)
    • Possession of Oranbega | Uncommon Defense enhancement set
    • Tactical Command | Uncommon Resistance enhancement set

These would be enhancements that are unique to pet affecting buffs, notably all of the the henchmen Equip and Upgrades, current Serum, Hell on Earth, Smokebomb, Fortify Pack, and current Repair.  Proposed with slotting into the Equip and Upgrades in mind, however.

 

That concludes the priorities that I have found through my own experience, and through community concern. Tell me (and the devs!) what you think! Popular responses will be added above. And lets make sure to keep this on topic, so these well needed changes find their way to the live servers in record time.

I'm particularly interested in the IO change discussion, so if necessary that can be another thread.

Edited by Monos King
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The Mastermind Enthusiast

MM Global Changes

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52 minutes ago, Monos King said:
  • Remove aura buffs from Expedient Reinforcement & Sovereign Right; proliferate to the t4 and t9 pet upgrades with a new enhancement set category "Upgrade Integral Pets" or "Equippable Pets" which will include a proc for pet debuff res. Arachnos' Order: Defense/10% Recovery Resistance or concept of that nature. Equippable Aura Def and Res buffs would be  enhanceable, but lowered by 0.5% and 4% respectively.
    • EX: Equip Thug gives +8 def base. Upgrade Equipment gives +16 res base. Adding the Upgrade Integral Pets Proc would increase these to 9.85 and 18.54 without boosters.
  • T9 Pet Upgrades offer set-themed buffs
    • Mercs get range or acc (not to-hit) increase
    • Thugs get range or rech increase
    • Zombies get speed increase
    • etc

This.... this in particular is awesome

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Posted (edited)

My first character on Homecoming is a robot MM so the repair/nanite revamp suggestion you made is my favorite thing in the post.  Repair is possibly the most useless power in all of the MM sets and this this change is pretty much mandatory at this point. It NEEDS to be changed asap.

Edited by Emperor Cole
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2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

This.... this in particular is awesome

Thanks, wasn't sure how that one would fly! I'll have to wait to see what others think before I really lobby for it.


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1 hour ago, Emperor Cole said:

My first character on Homecoming is a robot MM so the repair/nanite revamp suggestion you made is my favorite thing in the post.  Repair is possibly the most useless power in all of the MM sets and this this change is pretty much mandatory at this point. It NEEDS to be changed asap.

Right, and the power would be slottable for heal sets!

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Okay, so here's my suggestions as possible alternates:

/Traps should change its t9 'suicide bomber' power into a buff.  You throw it on your summoned minions like the upgrade powers, and then when they die they go bang.  None of this trying to guess when you want to trigger it in the vain hope that it will be in the right position at the moment it goes off.  To help keep it balanced, the damage dealt is dependent on the minion in question.  Small minion = small damage and small AoE, scaling up at the higher tiers.

Suggestion for Serum: make it an AoE aura, like an Empathy aura, that buffs all your minions at once, b ut not as strongly. That would be way more useful i think.

Alternate idea for the Nanite Heal for Bots: make it a toggle that summons two little floating drones, like the Seeker Drones. The drones then automatically zap nearby Bots with a healing ray every once in awhile. Maybe allow them to heal the MM too, but at a reduced rate, and only if the bots are healthy.  If you want to get really fancy, maybe expand that out to healing your allies too (again, at a reduced rate, and prioritizing the bots first).

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Posted (edited)

I like the idea of any and all improvements to serum, and changing to AoE buffs is definitely effective. I just thought it would be good to maintain the intention of the "godmode" aspect of the power, which is really fun at lower levels when you want your pet to fight way out of your weight class whilst you watch from a distance. @Rosewire 

 

To that end I wouldn't mind keeping the resistance and losing the defense buff, as high levels would shred through the serum buffs here. The idea was their superhuman strength would make them hyper agile and swift. While they would be generally more helpful and definitely better for the high leveled, it wouldn't prevent one shots or quick succession two shots.

 

Although one might argue that's ideal.

Edited by Monos King

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Necro - I still think Necro needs just a bit more AoE to perform somewhat closer to the other sets when it comes to damage. Give Grave Knights Slice.

 

I really like the pet aura removed and put into upgrade option. I think it should be enhanceable though and the base needs to be relatively low.  Having them have a high base would be way too big of a power jump starting at level 6 and 32.

 

Beasts still need help. I disagree that they are fine.  Buffs to their AI to where they arent howling out of combat could help.

 

I happen to agree with PH that Gaussian should not be on enforcers. It makes thugs too good imo.  

 

 

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As someone who ran MMs as my mains in Live, and has been playing a lot with them on Homecoming, a few thoughts:

 

  • MMs are functionally less compatible with IOs than most other archetypes, which reduces our buy-in to the system.  This is because most of our damage comes from pets who do not actually get any of our set bonuses, so we have fewer viable build options than other ATs.  Also, because our primary form of damage does not get buffed by IOs (excepting the auras), we are unable to actually increase our damage through the system.
    • One fix for this would be to provide more pet-affecting IO options, especially ones which would increase damage.
    • Another potential fix would be to allow pets to inherit IO set bonuses, either partially or in full.  This would make slotting more of a thoughtful process for MMs, as we would need to balance our personal set bonus targets with bonuses for the pets as well.  It would also provide an avenue for sets with little/no pet survivability boosting a method of doing so. (see below for this)
  • MMs suffer from a lack of clear role in end-game content.  The variable pet spawn levels (T1 at -2, T2 at -1) plus the damage reduction caused by relative level difference against purple-con enemies means that our Tier 1 and Tier 2 pets have severely reduced damage.  Unfortunately, some sets are balanced with the bulk of their damage being in T1 and T2 pets, having a control-focused pet in the Tier 3 slot; these sets in particular have a harder time achieving damage parity.  This would seem to drive us into more of a support role with our secondary, but as our secondaries generally have the lowest numbers in the game between ATs that share support sets, this is counterintuitive.  IMHO, Masterminds need a buff on at least one side of this equation: either better support numbers to allow us to perform team support better, or better pet damage to allow us to keep pace with damage-dealing archetyps in end-game content.
  • MM pet survivability varies wildly between sets, but is critical.  As many pets have relatively small health bars and end-game content has relatively high damage, increasing pet survivability is a high priority for MMs so that we can continue to actually deal damage.  Some primaries are better at this than others (Bots and Demons have shields and pet-to-pet heals baked in; Ninjas fall at the bottom of this spectrum).  
    • One possible suggestion for this would be to allow pets to take enhancements for their innate "Resistance" power.  For example, being able to add +Def to Ninja Jounin to improve their passive defense.  This would at least work toward normalizing the innate survivability of the sets.
  • Inspiration management is painful for MMs.  Unlike other sets, when we want to use reds to improve our damage, we have to spend 6 reds (1 for each pet) to get the full effect that anyone else would need to spend 1 red to achieve.  And it all has to be done with click and drag, by hand, as there is no macro-ing available for this.  MM inspiration effectiveness could stand to be reviewed.

 

Set-specific thoughts:

 

Ninjas

These were my old main, so they are where I have a lot of experience.  Ninjas are an interesting set which is challenging but can be rewarding for single-target damage.  The biggest potential improvements here would be:

  • Giving the Tier 1 and/or Tier 2 pets some sort of AoE.  Nothing earth-shattering, but perhaps a cone of shurikens?  
  • Smoke Bomb improvement.  Smoke Bomb is a fun power, highly interactive and effective when used wisely.  Unfortunately, its end cost and recharge are *huge*, which makes it challenging to use this and still budget End for the secondary.  Suggest re-evaluating cost/rech formula of this power.
  • As the OP mentioned, buffing the innate Def numbers and/or adding some Res to the ninjas would help a lot with their survivability (and by extension how much micromanagement and resummoning is required in the set).  

Robots

Robots are in a good spot for the most part, often sitting at or near the top of the heap.  The nanites upgrade from the OP would be a welcome change.  One other thought is that bots need less knockback.  Pet slotting is extremely tight already with having to fit in Auras, defense or healing on the T2 bots, set bonuses, and still get enough Acc/Dam.  Bots then have to pay a tax of slotting KB-to-KD or forever deal with knockback which the MM cannot directly control.  It would be nice if this were changed to knockdown by default, or if there were some other method of alleviating the extra slot tax pressure here.

 

Other sets I am less experienced on, and so defer to the OP, but the changes in general look quite good.  +1 from me!

 

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15 minutes ago, ajlee209 said:

Necro - I still think Necro needs just a bit more AoE to perform somewhat closer to the other sets when it comes to damage. Give Grave Knights Slice.

 

I really like the pet aura removed and put into upgrade option. I think it should be enhanceable though and the base needs to be relatively low.  Having them have a high base would be way too big of a power jump starting at level 6 and 32.

 

Beasts still need help. I disagree that they are fine.  Buffs to their AI to where they arent howling out of combat could help.

 

I happen to agree with PH that Gaussian should not be on enforcers. It makes thugs too good imo.  

 

 

I actually agree beasts need some work. By functionally perfect, I mean it fulfills its intended purpose well; it's good at what it's supposed to do which is single target melee dmg. That purpose just isn't viable.

 

I happened to address the change in base values above so I'm glad we're on the same page there, but as for Gaussians I am adamant it needs to return. With all the issues of IO viability, stripping a pet of one of the *only* instances of said concept isn't something I will ever get behind, especially when it's been around for so long. It will seem like less of an advantage when MMs get a few IO touch ups (hopefully one of the options proposed in the poll) but Enforcers gaining the Boost Up isn't nearly as tide turning as you might think. It pretty much just ensures they do decent damage and don't miss when it matters. Pets dmg cap is only 300%, so their damage is more dependent on effects or base power damage.

 

I don't think zombie is in any need of AoE, but I think it would also be a very welcome change if it's in the form of Grave Knights Slice. The only issue is that adding it to the rotation would reduce their quick sucession single target DPS, but if zombie mains agree that's for the best it's probably fine.

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1 hour ago, Monos King said:

I happened to address the change in base values above so I'm glad we're on the same page there, but as for Gaussians I am adamant it needs to return. With all the issues of IO viability, stripping a pet of one of the *only* instances of said concept isn't something I will ever get behind, especially when it's been around for so long. It will seem like less of an advantage when MMs get a few IO touch ups (hopefully one of the options proposed in the poll) but Enforcers gaining the Boost Up isn't nearly as tide turning as you might think. It pretty much just ensures they do decent damage and don't miss when it matters. Pets dmg cap is only 300%, so their damage is more dependent on effects or base power damage.

I shouldn't have said OP because you are correct in that it wouldn't change the tide in some overhauling fashion.  I still think it should not be added because the overlying problem is with IO/MM interaction in general. It's almost a waste to try to build set bonuses with MM because your pets get almost 0 benefit from a majority of those bonuses. Fix the core issue before mending it with a decent compromise. 

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, ajlee209 said:

I shouldn't have said OP because you are correct in that it wouldn't change the tide in some overhauling fashion.  I still think it should not be added because the overlying problem is with IO/MM interaction in general. It's almost a waste to try to build set bonuses with MM because your pets get almost 0 benefit from a majority of those bonuses. Fix the core issue before mending it with a decent compromise. 

I agree that the core issue should be fixed, so I would prefer they leave things be in that department and fix it all at once with a cohesive plan rather than make small sets of controversial changes now without any future reference available. This change was just a huge, unwarranted upset to most thug users. 

 

The ideal MM IO plan probably wouldn't need something like Gaussians across the class, and putting it into enforcers might just become a trade off as simple as putting Force Feedback vs Devastation proc into Duel Wield. But for now, I'm viciously against this seemingly vaccumized reduction.

Edited by Monos King
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I definitely think a push to put the res aura into the 1st upgrade and the def aura into the 2nd upgrade is a stroke of genius. It also opens up def and res IO slotting for MMs on top of eliminating the crunch for slots in pets themselves.

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22 hours ago, Monos King said:
  • Add the aura buffs from ATOs to Supremacy, rising in effectiveness from level 15-50 until it is at the same strength as they are now (credit to Everfreefire, et al. for this one)
  • Remove aura buffs from Expedient Reinforcement & Sovereign Right; proliferate to the t4 and t9 pet upgrades with a new enhancement set category "Upgrade Integral Pets" or "Equippable Pets" which will include a proc for pet debuff res. Arachnos' Order: Defense/10% Recovery Resistance or concept of that nature. Equippable Aura Def and Res buffs would be  enhanceable, but lowered by 0.5% and 4% respectively.

This would be nice, dont get me wrong..but..why? The MM ATO's, while not super 'exciting' (like scrapper/stalker) are really really really good. And they work to make the most important part of an MM, the pets, even tougher. And as good as they are, MMs can and are good without them. It would be like taking every armour set and going 'oh the +def and res IOs, lets just add those values into a toggle', just cause.

I'd much much prefer each Pet primary tweaked and brought in line with the others (as much as possible).

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Just now, Razor Cure said:

This would be nice, dont get me wrong..but..why? The MM ATO's, while not super 'exciting' (like scrapper/stalker) are really really really good. And they work to make the most important part of an MM, the pets, even tougher. And as good as they are, MMs can and are good without them. It would be like taking every armour set and going 'oh the +def and res IOs, lets just add those values into a toggle', just cause.

I'd much much prefer each Pet primary tweaked and brought in line with the others (as much as possible).

They are pretty much a unique slot tax for MMs to function at high lvl. Melee/Armored characters likewise don't face the same issue.

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Because it makes basic survival a slot tax. And saying they are "really really good" just enforces that. You are ending up in a situation where you lose stats (or just flat out more interesting options) for defenses, and that's not really fair to MMs, especially those without the extra pet to slot them into.

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6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

They are pretty much a unique slot tax for MMs to function at high lvl. Melee/Armored characters likewise don't face the same issue.

It is? So how did my MMs function at high levels before ATOs came along? Granted, they werent as tough, but I still got along fine. ANd yes, pets being at lower levels in incarnate trials can be painful, but since those are never solo, there is almost always gonna be external buffs/heals around.

Does that mean all ATOs are a tax? Cause they all (most) have awesome buffs. Like the stalker is paying a 'tax' for BU to recharge, a scrapper pays a tax to increase their crit chance, etc etc. EVERY enhancement slotted, that is not doing +dam/acc/end/rech/etc is a tax..you a getting something else out of it as a trade off.

Trading 6 (i think? 2 atos, 2 pet, 2 pet rech set) slots to make my pets WAY tougher (no other power set can get such a boost for just 6 slots)..sign me up. If that is a tax, I don't mind paying it at all.

 

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6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

They are pretty much a unique slot tax for MMs to function at high lvl. Melee/Armored characters likewise don't face the same issue.

It is? So how did my MMs function at high levels before ATOs came along? Granted, they werent as tough, but I still got along fine. ANd yes, pets being at lower levels in incarnate trials can be painful, but since those are never solo, there is almost always gonna be external buffs/heals around.

Does that mean all ATOs are a tax? Cause they all (most) have awesome buffs. Like the stalker is paying a 'tax' for BU to recharge, a scrapper pays a tax to increase their crit chance, etc etc. EVERY enhancement slotted, that is not doing +dam/acc/end/rech/etc is a tax..you a getting something else out of it as a trade off.

Trading 6 (i think? 2 atos, 2 pet, 2 pet rech set) slots to make my pets WAY tougher (no other power set can get such a boost for just 6 slots)..sign me up. If that is a tax, I don't mind paying it at all.

 

11 minutes ago, Twintania said:

that's not really fair to MMs, especially those without the extra pet to slot them into.

Not fair to those MMs, yes. To Mms in general? Less so. As I said, I'd rather pets improved, which includes all sets having teh ability to use every Pet unique.

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That is exactly a tax, and no other AT is required to do so to keep their damage going. You say that's a lot of boost for just six slots, but no other AT needs 6 slots to get any sort of boost like this. You mentioned Scrappers and Stalkers, to lets look at their ATOs  (Two sets, two procs)

 

Scrapper: Recharge/Critical Hit Bonus. I believe this gives a flat boost to their critical hit chance. One slot for a damage boost. Recharge/+50% Crit Proc. I believe this gives a short duration crit boost when proc'd. Two slots, both of which still give stats (Not a tax by your logic) and give a boost to personal DPS.

 

Stalker: Recharge/Chance to Hide, probably one of the best ATO procs in the game in my opinion. Chance to re-enter hide, which guarantees next hit crits. Recharge/Recharge Build Up, I assume this gives a chance to Recharge Build Up. I've never used it, but more chances for Build Up is easily more damage. Once again, Two slots, not tax by your logic, boost to personal DPS.

 

Now let's look at MM ATOs (I am currently ignoring the FOUR other aura ATOs):  Recharge/Pet +AoE Defense Aura. This one, is granted, INCREDIBLY useful for keeping your pets alive, shackled with a stat only 3 of the MMs would find valuable. EndRed/Pet +Regen/+Resist. More useful stat (Sort of?), 15% resistance, and Regen. Useful for some added pet survival, Neither of these actually do anything even close to what the two ATs you mentioned do. They keep your damage going a little longer, but other ATs don't even *need* that in such a manner.

 

Actually, now I am curious...

 

Blaster: Recharge/Chance for Fire, Recharge/Status Protection. More damage, and better ability to keep pumping out damage, Blaster's main point.

Controller: Recharge/Chance for Psionic, Recharge/Energy Font. I believe both just add damage in a sense. I've never been clear on what Energy Font *does*

Defender: Recharge/Chance for AoE Heal, Recharge/Chance for AoE Absorb. Using damage to boost party survival. I actually really like these two.

Tanker: Recharge/Chance for Resist, Recharge/Absorb. They are personal survival boosts, though I feel like these could be more interesting.

Peacebringer/Warshade: Recharge/Form Empowerment, Recharge/Global Heal. I admit...I don't know what these do.

Sentinel: Recharge/Chance for Absorb, Recharge/Chance for Opportunity. I mean, the absorb is kinda boring, but the opportunity is a boost to their passive, which generally means more damage for the whole group. I'm unsure the proc rate/Opportunity Boost, but if it gets the passive up more, useful.

Brute: Recharge/Fury Bonus, Recharge/+End/+Regen. Gain passive damage faster, stay punching longer. Boring, but fairly practical.

Corruptor: Recharge/Chance for Negative, Recharge/PbAoE +End. More damage procs, ability to keep party shooting longer. Probably less useful on a team, depending on set-up.

Dominator: Recharge/Chance for +Dam, Recharge/Fiery Orb. Again, unsure what the summon proc does, but this is more damage at minimum. Surprised there was nothing for Domination, actually. A chance for Domination Recharge would have been cool.

Arachnos Soldier/Widow: Recharge/Chance for -Dam/Terrorize, Recharge/Global Toxic. Does that give all of their skills a Toxic damage proc? Either way, support based on fits what they do.

 

 

 

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I do not have either the time or the mental bandwidth right now to get into set specifics, but my suggestions for broad stroke, archetype wide changes are:

  • Pet survivability in the endgame is abysmal. Even Defense softcapped, Resist hardcapped pets regularly get one-shot in +4 content. That just should not be happening.
    • Remove the pet-only Incarnate shifts and up their base levels to the Mastermind's level
    • Reduce damage pets take from AoE attacks (maybe only in Supremacy range?), at least the telegraphed ones that players are expected to dodge. Every modern MMO has pets taking 50-90% reduced damage from AoE attacks to compensate for dumb AI.
    • Increase pet health.
    • Add a damage mitigating component to Supremacy so that increasing pet survival has a tactical aspect that can be played into from the start instead of being solely build dependent.
    • Standardize the inherit defenses and resistances of pets so that some sets aren't quite so crippled out the gate.
  • Masterminds have a very awkward relationship with Inventions. They get much less benefit out of set bonuses than every other AT, while at the same time being desperately starved for slots in their Pet powers to cram all the essentials in.
    • Make Pets inherit Set Bonuses. The most powerful set bonus, Recharge, wouldn't effect them even if they inherited it, but it would be nice for damage and defense to scale into endgame builds the way every other AT does.
    • Make the Pet Upgrade Powers take Pet Sets and benefit from being enhanced so they have more breathing room to work with all the unique IOs instead of being forced to cram everything important into 3 powers.
    • Make the Pet Aura IOs more powerful individually, then change the effect of some of them to something else so there's less urgency to stack them all.
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@Draeth Darkstar

Virtue and Freedom Survivor

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58 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

but..why?

 

23 hours ago, Monos King said:

While masterminds, like any class, will be fine once maximized through incarnates and the lot, the reward and efficiency from enhancements is both limiting and necessary to the extent that upgrading the class can feel like litte more than a catalog of constraints. Not surprisingly, I've seen many become disinterested in the archetype as a result

That should answer your question.


The Mastermind Enthusiast

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45 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Not fair to those MMs, yes. To Mms in general? Less so. As I said, I'd rather pets improved, which includes all sets having teh ability to use every Pet unique

I'll need you to expand on this idea a bit as well. Pets themselves seem fine from my perspective, conceptually. I'm really here to push for changes to MM viability, not reworks of the class and class functions. What you're suggesting seems like it will be way more difficult, controversial, and generally less likely to happen because of how unnecessary they are.

 

I'd rather look at the list of fixing what's holding MMs back before installing an array of additions like pet power diversification, if that's what your suggesting.


The Mastermind Enthusiast

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3 hours ago, Monos King said:

I'll need you to expand on this idea a bit as well

Basically just tweaks for every primary, like the ones you talk about in the OP.

 

3 hours ago, Monos King said:

I'd rather look at the list of fixing what's holding MMs back

I still dont think MMs are held back. Aside from the pets in incarnate content (which has already been fixed right, so they are all your level?).

 

3 hours ago, Monos King said:

What you're suggesting seems like it will be way more difficult, controversial, and generally less likely to happen

What? How? Tweaking ONE power in each set, so that it takes Pet Rech IO sets? That is hardly difficult or controversial. A bit better now you can get the Rech sets in 'normal' pets, but still should be done.

 

 

3 hours ago, Twintania said:

Now let's look at MM ATOs (I am currently ignoring the FOUR other aura ATOs):  Recharge/Pet +AoE Defense Aura. This one, is granted, INCREDIBLY useful for keeping your pets alive, shackled with a stat only 3 of the MMs would find valuable. EndRed/Pet +Regen/+Resist. More useful stat (Sort of?), 15% resistance, and Regen. Useful for some added pet survival, Neither of these actually do anything even close to what the two ATs you mentioned do. They keep your damage going a little longer, but other ATs don't even *need* that in such a manner.

So you arent counting the other uniques..meaning MMs have this totally AWFUL tax of..TWo whole slots. In order to beef up pets. Wow, 2 slots, that is a harsh tax allright...

Sorry for the sarcasm but..seriously? May as well bitch about how the 'tax' for a miracle and numi unique is so bad (two slots and all).

Also..not sure why the MM ato's would be anything like the scrapper/stalker one, especially considering those two are the flat out best (especially the stalker one) in the game. But even then, do you NEED those ATOs? Sure dont. No AT does. Are they great to have? Totally.

Again..setting aside 2 slots from a entire build, to get some amazing stat boosts you cant get anywhere else, calling it a tax, and claiming they need to be folded into the AT itself?

Come on.

 

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39 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

I still dont think MMs are held back. Aside from the pets in incarnate content (which has already been fixed right, so they are all your level?).

You keep talking about instances of survivability suggesting ATOs are fine, I think you're confused as to what is being lamented. IOs. What holds back the archetype itself, aside from specific issues like ninjas total defenselessness and what I highlighted previously, are the issues with enhancements. A lot of people see the huge problem, so I'll do my best to bring you up to speed.

 

Not all masterminds are thermal, cold, or another strong protective set. You might be. And some masterminds are thugs, with no inherent resistances beyond bruiser, and ninja, which might as well have no inherent resistances. This means that compatibility issues will arise, because choosing a defensively weak primary with something not *devoted* to protection results in disproportionately disadvantageous performance. You don't need the auras at all if your something like demons/cold, but if your thugs/poison you are completely doomed without it; not only in many instances of solo play but overwhelmingly so in any instances of group play. This makes them necessary.

 

But because they are necessary, they are constraining. A set like ninjas doesn't have a throw away power to fill up with aura procs the way demons or necro does. They are limited by what they can enhance because they absolutely NEED to get the auras to be viable in groups. Pets, even when sharing casters level like in incarnate trials, are intentionally squishy without support. Few exceptions. This intention goes stale when they can't receive benefit from support due to their lacking resistances, die or attract unwanted aggro, and reduce the mastermind to little more than a less potent defender or corruptor. So the slots, 6 not 2 by the way,  are crucial. Being crucial, 6 slots are now taken up, preventing the mastermind from optimally IOing out. And that's a huge problem compared to other classes when masterminds have limited benefit from IOs to begin with! That's the issue.

 

Compared to other ATs, or even other types of masterminds, most masterminds are effectively crippled, and less than viable as a result of the above.

 


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Ok, reading that reply Minos.

7 minutes ago, Monos King said:

And some masterminds are thugs, with no inherent resistances beyond bruiser, and ninja, which might as well have no inherent resistances.

Again, that is an issue WITH the pets, not Masterminds as a whole. ANd..I (and you) already covered this, in saying some of the pet sets need to be brought in line with the others. That has nothing to do with the ATOs..with or without them, those sets need some tweaking.

 

9 minutes ago, Monos King said:

This means that compatibility issues will arise, because choosing a defensively weak primary with something not *devoted* to protection results in disproportionately disadvantageous performance.

Again..in almost all cases that is cause by the worse-of pets. ALso, every single At has combos that are good, middling and bad. Its like saying that cause an Emp/Arc fender has crappy damage, the 2 ATOs should be folded into the AT.

 

 

 

Please explain (try to..I feel I am missing something here) what I am not getting..but SOME of the MM Primaries being lacking doesnt make the whole AT borderline bad, or justify just taking on huge buffs to the inherent..for free. They come at a cost in SLots, like everything else. An EM brute (if they still exist) is gonna want oodles of + rech from gamblers and other sets, but just because EM is basically shite without good rech, it doesnt mean brutes all suddenly should get +rech thrown into their inherents.

 

Just to state it again..the poor performing sets SHOULD get tweaked, to bring them in line with the better ones. If this (crazy) idea of combining the auras into the AT went ahead..that would just push the good sets even more ahead, as those already have the base stats present.

 

 

 

 

 

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