Monos King & Galaxy Brain's Mastermind Changes

[Galaxy Brain]

21 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Needs more labels for clarity of info context(s).

What am I looking at and what is changing in your table data to produce the outcomes that you're enumerating?  Not clear at all unless you already know the answer(s).

I gotcha, lets break it down:

 

The Pet Damage / DPS columns were gathered from what is posted in the OP. These are the damage totals in 1 rotation of powers per pet added up, and the combined DPS of the pets added up. The "Special" Pet damage ones include factors like -Res, Criticals, or bonus pets. These values include the changes presented in the OP + Linked threads (like the +1 lvl shift and so on), and assume an even level target.

 

Likewise, the MM column is the combined damage of their 3 attacks in 1 rotation, and their total DPS if they were to simply rotate through their powers.

 

The Total Damage/DPS just combines the Pet and MM values, and the MM % column is the % that the MM contributes to overall damage based on these criteria. 

[Redlynne]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I gotcha

Any chance you could edit all of that into the table ...?

[Galaxy Brain]

4 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Any chance you could edit all of that into the table ...?

Added that in, was in a little rush yesterday with work 🙂

 

So, some takeaways:

These values will likely change a lot with slotting, since the MM can add recharge and the pets can't. Though, as of writing this the pets will also be getting supremacy and I should really whip those values up with 3dam/1rech in the attacks at least....

 

Ninja Personal Attacks have the best DPS and EPS, which also explains why they're so well suited for your style Red 🙂

 

Robotics personal attacks at a glance seem to add a significant amount of output for the set when it comes to ST DPS, as do Mercs. 

 

Beasts and Demons also provide a significant chunk of damage with personal attacks like with Mercs and Bots, but unlike the latter sets the pets deal great damage at base too. 

[Redlynne]

6 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Ninja Personal Attacks have the best DPS and EPS, which also explains why they're so well suited for your style Red 🙂

[Galaxy Brain]

Ok, so on average with our proposed changes, the MM personal attacks give you the following output.

 

This is assuming the pets have 95% damage enhancement, + Supremacy, + their natural abilities alongside the MM having 95% damage enhancement, 1 end, and 1 rech SO in their attacks:

 

Average DPS contribution = 13.55% of total DPS

Average End per Sec cost = 5.49 eps

 

That doesn't seem too bad.... until:

 

Leadership - Assault = 11.25% damage boost to pets

Leadership - Assault = 0.29 eps with 1 SO

 

So, an MM can get roughly the same DPS contribution out of running Assault with no slots, as running all 3 of their personal attacks with full slotting. That... is not a good ratio at all. It costs 18.9x more endurance per second to use the attacks for only 1.2x the output of simply picking Assault.

 

That end cost ratio is simply bananas. It's not much better when we emulate the output with our proposed Aggressive Mode changes (30% dam and end adjustment) as you bump up to 15.3% contribution, but still have an EPS of 4.46 which is 15.4x more expensive for only 1.36x more power. 

 

 

Looking into this more, something seemed a little fishy and I decided to check out the Endurance formulas for AT's.

 

Standard Attack Endurance Cost = 0.2 * (0.8 * Recharge + 1.8) * EndConstraint * ATConstraint

 

EndConstraint = 0.65

 

ATConstraint =

0.8 for most ATs primary and secondary power pools,

1.0 for Master Mind primary and secondary, and all other non-primary/secondary pools.

so, normal ATs:
end = 0.2 * (0.8 * Rech + 1.8) * 0.65 * 0.8

 

Masterminds:
end = 0.2 * (0.8 * Rech + 1.8) * 0.65 * 1.0

 

The difference from 0.8 to 1.0 seems like it should be 20% more end cost, right? That seems to make sense, and appears fair for how MM's get "free" damage. But, when rounding up the endurance costs for all the Primary Attacks and running all the powers through this formula with both mods we see:

 

Avg end cost for MM's mod = 10.61

Avg end cost for 0.8 mod = 8.09

Difference = MM mod is 1.31x more expensive

 

Ok! So, it looks like MM's are paying a bit more than what is intended? If it were to be a 20% increase, their mod should be 0.96 (or rounded to 0.95), not 1.0! It appears that they are spending a bit too much endurance than necessary, which leads to slower gameplay and possibly the dropoff we see at higher level. 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Redlynne]

12 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The difference from 0.8 to 1.0 seems like it should be 20% more end cost, right?

1.0 / 0.8 = 1.25

 

Oh look, there's that 1.25x multiplier I found earlier upthread ...

On 5/10/2020 at 8:56 AM, Redlynne said:

Now we can take a look at the endurance costs.

 

Snap Shot Endurance Costs ... 3.536 / 3.536 / 3.536 / 4.42

Aimed Shot Endurance Costs ... 5.2 / 5.2 / 5.2 / 6.5

Fistful of Arrows Endurance Costs ... 8.528 / 8.528 / 8.528 / 10.66

 

So the endurance costs are exactly the same for Blasters, Corruptors and Defenders while Masterminds are PENALIZED relative to the other archetypes while having exactly the same damage multiplier as Corruptors and Defenders.  How much of a penalty?

4.42 / 3.536 = 1.25

6.5 / 5.2 = 1.25

10.66 / 8.528 = 1.25

 

Answer ... a +25% endurance cost penalty across the board ... because ... (flawed and bad) reasons?

On 5/10/2020 at 5:08 AM, Nanolathe said:

Which will lower the damage as a consequence, as damage is a calculated number based on a power's endurance cost and recharge time (and probably other factors), multiplied by the AT's damage scale, rather than something input directly. Apparently this damage-as-derived-number is a real pain to work around. Or at least that's what I've always been under the impression of being the case having lurked on the old forums, and here.

Well, if the damage as derived number formulas were being OBEYED WITHOUT FAVORITISM (which they're not for Masterminds) then one of two things ought to happen.

 

Either the damage multiplier for Mastermind personal attacks needs to be INCREASED by +25% across the board so as to produce damage commensurate with the ACTUAL endurance costs as already implemented (I would favor this interpretation, actually).  So endurance costs stay at +25% and Mastermind personal attacks do +25% more damage per power than they are right now.

 

... OR ...

 

The damage multiplier stays the same and the +25% endurance cost PENALTY gets removed from Mastermind personal attacks.

 

12 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Looking into this more, something seemed a little fishy and I decided to check out the Endurance formulas for AT's.

 

Standard Attack Endurance Cost = 0.2 * (0.8 * Recharge + 1.8) * EndConstraint * ATConstraint

 

EndConstraint = 0.65

 

ATConstraint =

0.8 for most ATs primary and secondary power pools,

1.0 for Master Mind primary and secondary, and all other non-primary/secondary pools.

so, normal ATs:
end = 0.2 * (0.8 * Rech + 1.8) * 0.65 * 0.8

 

Masterminds:
end = 0.2 * (0.8 * Rech + 1.8) * 0.65 * 1.0

 

So basically all that needs to happen to remove the endurance penalty imposed upon Masterminds is to change ONE parameter?

Change the ATConstraint from 1.0 to 0.8 like all other Archetypes?

 

It SOUNDS easy enough to do.  What's the catch?

 

12 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

This is assuming the pets have 95% damage enhancement, + Supremacy, + their natural abilities alongside the MM having 95% damage enhancement, 1 end, and 1 rech SO in their attacks:

 

Average DPS contribution = 13.55% of total DPS

Average End per Sec cost = 5.49 eps

 

That doesn't seem too bad.... until:

 

Leadership - Assault = 11.25% damage boost to pets

Leadership - Assault = 0.29 eps with 1 SO

 

So, an MM can get roughly the same DPS contribution out of running Assault with no slots, as running all 3 of their personal attacks with full slotting. That... is not a good ratio at all. It costs 18.9x more endurance per second to use the attacks for only 1.2x the output of simply picking Assault.

I hate to have to be the one to say it, but that's an apples to lugnuts comparison.  You're basically trying to compare 3 personal attacks, which are all pretty weak to start with (T1, T2, T3 equivalents being the generic pattern when comparing with the "parent" powersets the personal attacks come from) and then weighing the damage production of those attacks against the rest of the primary in a statistical vacuum in a "lab" setting on a spreadsheet.

 

My point being that if you take the exact same methodology and apply it to say ... an */Archery Defender ... would the results you get back comparing the damage production of the T1-3 powers mimic the performance spread against the T4-9 powers like what you're seeing here?  Remember, the purpose wasn't to balance the personal attacks against the "value" of Assault from Leadership, since that's an "after the fact" realization of how the powers work with each other and synergize when integrated.

 

In other words, if the T1-3 powers of Archery for a Defender show a similar "minor contribution" versus the T4-9 powers of the set, the "apparent weakness" of the 3 personal attacks for a Ninja Mastermind (the 1:1 comparison case for this example) is simply a function of which powers are available for personal attacks ... not an indictment of additional "weakness" being baked into the personal attack powers that Masterminds have access to simply because they're Masterminds (and need more nerfs than Regeneration, apparently).

 

 

 

Also, that comparison of Assault versus personal attacks is statistically valid against $Targets with infinite HP that you can keep hitting "forever" ... but it rapidly runs into problems when trying to compute behavioral patterns in which the personal attacks can be used to "focus firepower" onto a specific $Target (or $Targets with the AoE) for more rapid defeats.  I'm talking about hastening the "collapse and rout" conditions wherein there is far greater value in defeating $Targets FASTER, sequentially, even if you wind up doing the exact same amount of damage overall, in parallel.

 

To give you a better sense of what I'm talking about ... let's say just for the sake of argument and illustration purposes that a pile of $Targets needs 20,000 damage dealt to them in order to defeat them all, and there's 10 of them ... so 2000 damage each, just to keep it simple.

 

Is it "better" to spread the damage as evenly as possible, so that all 10 are defeated in unison at the exact same time?

Or is it "better" to concentrate damage firepower so as to defeat some of those 10 faster than others in a way that causes a cascading collapse of the $Targets?

 

The overall time to defeat all 10 is going to be exactly the same either way ... whether the damage spread is "even" or "lumpy" (so to speak).  But if the damage is "lumpy" in that there's some concentration of firepower to defeat some of those 10 faster than others, then those defeats among those 10 reduces the amount of damage that those 10 can then output onto you (the Mastermind) and your Pets, increasing your survival chances in the encounter.  By defeating some faster than others, even if the overall damage required to defeat all 10 is exactly the same, there is a survival benefit that doesn't show up in the raw damage output of Mastermind and Pets, which will then influence gameplay engagement strategy and tactics, as well as build planning and "value weighting" in ways that your direct comparison of personal attacks to Assault simply cannot capture (because you're not looking for it).

 

 

 

And it's exactly that differential between "even" and "lumpy" damage production that I noticed myself while playing my Ninja Mastermind in Praetoria through Imperial City, before and after I respecced to the "It's A BOW Time..." build.  Although I wasn't doing "that much more" damage by using the personal attacks, I was "doing enough more damage" to completely change the dynamics of each fight in a way that practically revolutionized HOW the damage cascaded onto (and through) $Targets every single fight.  Whereas before my Ninjas had to do something like 50-100% damage via melee against a single $Target when I didn't have personal attacks ... with personal attacks in play that dropped to as low as 0% damage from Pet melee against single $Targets ... meaning that my Pets were taking little to no damage themselves, VASTLY improving their survival and dramatically reducing the amount of healing they needed in order to recoup and regroup after each fight.  Basically I shifted from spending endurance on healing to spending endurance on fighting, because the engagements were simply that much shorter and $Targets were getting defeated by concentrated firepower that much faster.

 

The key element, which your spreadsheet analysis will NOT yield for you, is the decision loop process that the Player has to undertake when concentrating their own personal attacks in support of what attacks your Pets are doing so as to win defeats more quickly and thereby "reshape the battlespace" on a quicker tempo than would be possible without them ... and it's THAT change in the "tempo" of battle that brings A LOT of knock on benefits that your analysis simply cannot capture and show you.  It's something you'll only be able to see for yourself in doing a gameplay comparison.

 

So the easiest way to do the kind of comparison I'm talking about is to actually play the game WITH the personal attacks at your disposal.  Use the personal attacks as openers so as to "whittle" $Targets while they're bumrushing towards you to melee you and record how quickly they're defeated (most of the time I can defeat Minions before they even get into melee range of my Ninja Mastermind, sometimes they faceplant at my feet, but a lot of the time they faceplant like some 10+ feet away).  So after establishing a baseline of performance in terms of Time To Defeat ... run the same experiment but refrain from using any personal attacks by your Mastermind, and check to see how long the fight takes ... and how much damage your Pets take that then needs to be healed up.

 

In my experience, it simply takes longer and costs more endurance(!) to make the Pets do all the work/carry the load alone for you.  It also exposes your Pets to more danger of being defeated and puts more strain on their survival to NOT use the personal attacks.  So it's one of those counter-intuitive things that you have to experience for yourself before it all starts to fall into place, because there's a VERY complex inter(re)action going on between use of personal attacks and Bodyguard Mode which is ALSO helping to keep your Pets from taking (more) damage than they can handle individually, per fight.  The dynamics for WHY things shift the "way" that they do, and to the "degree" that they do, when using personal attacks is simply one of those Force Multiplier things that is very very VERY hard to explain from a spreadsheet analysis like you're trying to do here ... but which shows up pretty darn quickly in actual gameplay once you know what you're doing and recognize (as a Player!) how to "stack the odds" in your own favor every single encounter.  It's all about "skewing" the pressure and break points points in your favor in ways that cause your $Targets to collapse more quickly (and therefore, more safely for you!) than the alternative.

 

 

 

Hope that helps.

 

Again, this is something that can be demonstrated via gameplay video relatively easily ... but we're not allowed to post gameplay videos here on Homecoming.  However, it is something that can be "demoed" via teaming in game.  You just need a Mastermind who has actually taken their personal attacks, rather than skipped them, to be able to SEE the differences in engagement strategy options and overall Pet survival/effectiveness.  Now I wonder where you might be able to find one of those, since they're so RARE ...

Edited May 17, 2020 by Redlynne
pytos

[tidge]

I want to highlight some of the parts of the previous post that earned my 'like'

 

2 hours ago, Redlynne said:

 Whereas before my Ninjas had to do something like 50-100% damage via melee against a single $Target when I didn't have personal attacks ... with personal attacks in play that dropped to as low as 0% damage from Pet melee against single $Targets ... meaning that my Pets were taking little to no damage themselves, VASTLY improving their survival and dramatically reducing the amount of healing they needed in order to recoup and regroup after each fight.  Basically I shifted from spending endurance on healing to spending endurance on fighting, because the engagements were simply that much shorter and $Targets were getting defeated by concentrated firepower that much faster.

...

The key element, which your spreadsheet analysis will NOT yield for you, is the decision loop process that the Player has to undertake when concentrating their own personal attacks in support of what attacks your Pets are doing so as to win defeats more quickly and thereby "reshape the battlespace" on a quicker tempo than would be possible without them ... and it's THAT change in the "tempo" of battle that brings A LOT of knock on benefits that your analysis simply cannot capture and show you.  It's something you'll only be able to see for yourself in doing a gameplay comparison.

...

In my experience, it simply takes longer and costs more endurance(!) to make the Pets do all the work/carry the load alone for you.  It also exposes your Pets to more danger of being defeated and puts more strain on their survival to NOT use the personal attacks.  So it's one of those counter-intuitive things that you have to experience for yourself before it all starts to fall into place, because there's a VERY complex inter(re)action going on between use of personal attacks and Bodyguard Mode which is ALSO helping to keep your Pets from taking (more) damage than they can handle individually, per fight.  The dynamics for WHY things shift the "way" that they do, and to the "degree" that they do, when using personal attacks is simply one of those Force Multiplier things that is very very VERY hard to explain from a spreadsheet analysis like you're trying to do here ... but which shows up pretty darn quickly in actual gameplay once you know what you're doing and recognize (as a Player!) how to "stack the odds" in your own favor every single encounter.  It's all about "skewing" the pressure and break points points in your favor in ways that cause your $Targets to collapse more quickly (and therefore, more safely for you!) than the alternative.

 

I appreciate that @Redlynne is emphasizing that play choices with Masterminds are a major contributing factor to DPS. I don't think there is another AT that so starkly invites radical play choices where players can 'easily' choose a set of powers (from a primary) which are going to result in uneven performance. Possibly HEATs? Some VEATs are are more effective than others, but a pet-less Mastermind strikes me as a Dominator who chooses not to use Domination.

 

My own experience with Robots (definitely not a 'top tier' primary) is this: I didn't take personal attacks at all while leveling up, and after a lvl 50 respec (into a sort of Tankermind, albeit one without Provoke) I didn't start taking personal attacks until level 30. For reference, here is the slotting of the three personal attacks:

Spoiler

Level 30: Photon Grenade -- Ann-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Ann-Dmg/Rchg:50(31), Ann-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(31), Ann-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31), Ann-ResDeb%:50(33), OvrFrc-Dam/KB:50(33)

 

Level 38: Pulse Rifle Burst -- SuddAcc--KB/+KD:50(A), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg:50(39), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End:50(39), OvrFrc-Dmg/End/Rech:50(39), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech:50(40), FrcFdb-Rechg%:50(40)

Level 41: Mace Beam Volley -- SuddAcc--KB/+KD:50(A), Ann-Acc/Dmg:50(48), Ann-Dmg/Rchg:50(48), Ann-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(50), Ann-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(50), Ann-ResDeb%:50(50)

 

I want to note that several of my secondary set powers also provide (AoE) -Res as well. I am under no illusion that my attacks are directly contributing enough Damage to drop enemies, but the control (Knockdown) and debuffing (-Res) is contributing to the defeat speed of the team. I was perfectly happy to play the build without the attacks, but for taking on GMs or farms by taking the attacks I improved performance. This is without Assault btw! (Heresy!)

 

If there are choices about that particular build that I feel like I got 'backed into' it is the Endurance management. Across the build I had to make painful decisions about slotting powers and choosing IO sets simply to be able to run toggles and make direct attacks. I would have the same Endurance issues even if I didn't run with pets, no matter the damage scale of the AT.

[Galaxy Brain]

15 hours ago, Redlynne said:

1.0 / 0.8 = 1.25

 

Oh look, there's that 1.25x multiplier I found earlier upthread ...

 

 

So basically all that needs to happen to remove the endurance penalty imposed upon Masterminds is to change ONE parameter?

Change the ATConstraint from 1.0 to 0.8 like all other Archetypes?

 

It SOUNDS easy enough to do.  What's the catch?

Its kinda semantics at that point depending on if you look down from the 1.0 or up from the 0.8, but either way eyeballing the average cost is is above a 1.25x value and that I think could be looked into :< 

 

Quote

 

I hate to have to be the one to say it, but that's an apples to lugnuts comparison.  You're basically trying to compare 3 personal attacks, which are all pretty weak to start with (T1, T2, T3 equivalents being the generic pattern when comparing with the "parent" powersets the personal attacks come from) and then weighing the damage production of those attacks against the rest of the primary in a statistical vacuum in a "lab" setting on a spreadsheet.

With the drawbacks for using them being the pitiful personal MM damage scale and boosted endurance costs, it is worth comparing them against Assault IMO. Could I have done more extensive analysis of the attack chains per primary along with the average attack rotation of the pet AI's for comparison? Yes, but I think the values put together are still in the right ballpark for comparison. 

 

Seeing as so many choose not to use the attacks, I feel it is important to see how they exactly stack up with and without using them.

 

Quote

 

My point being that if you take the exact same methodology and apply it to say ... an */Archery Defender ... would the results you get back comparing the damage production of the T1-3 powers mimic the performance spread against the T4-9 powers like what you're seeing here?  Remember, the purpose wasn't to balance the personal attacks against the "value" of Assault from Leadership, since that's an "after the fact" realization of how the powers work with each other and synergize when integrated.

 

In other words, if the T1-3 powers of Archery for a Defender show a similar "minor contribution" versus the T4-9 powers of the set, the "apparent weakness" of the 3 personal attacks for a Ninja Mastermind (the 1:1 comparison case for this example) is simply a function of which powers are available for personal attacks ... not an indictment of additional "weakness" being baked into the personal attack powers that Masterminds have access to simply because they're Masterminds (and need more nerfs than Regeneration, apparently).

 

Well, lets compare:

 

 

Using the base values for Defender Archery, Snap Shot + Aimed Shot + Fistful account for 18.25% of the total damage that is dealt in succession (ignoring Aim and Stunning shot which isn't really a damage power), and if done in succession they contribute 44.46% of the DPS. The Ninja personal attacks account for roughly 5.5% of the total damage output when combined with your Ninjas, and similarly when mixed in indefinitely account for ~14% of the DPS.

Since this is a player set though, we can take a look at an example attack chain that tries to use as many powers as possible to sort of emulate MM's with their limited selection

 

Unenhanced:

Blazing Arrow -->  Ranged Shot -->  Aimed Shot -->  Explosive Arrow -->  Fistful of Arrows -->  Snap Shot -->  Blazing Arrow -->  Aimed Shot -->  Snap Shot -->  Snap Shot

6/10 powers are from the starting 3, contributing a total of 178.93 / 561.04 damage (31.89%)

 

ST only:
Blazing Arrow -->  Ranged Shot -->  Aimed Shot -->  Snap Shot -->  Snap Shot -->  Blazing Arrow

3/6 powers, 85.31/434.89 (19.62%)

 

 

Enhanced (3dam/1rech/1acc/1end):

Blazing Arrow -->  Ranged Shot -->  Aimed Shot -->  Explosive Arrow -->  Fistful of Arrows -->  Blazing Arrow -->  Aimed Shot

3/7 powers, 205.12/950.24 (21.59%)

 

ST only:

Blazing Arrow -->  Ranged Shot -->  Aimed Shot -->  Snap Shot -->  Blazing Arrow

2/5 powers, 118.42/800.11 (14.8%) [Hey, look at that]

 

 

As we see, adding more to the powers via enhancement does diminish the value of the 1st three powers, but in context they still hold up better comparatively. A major difference here is that ignoring the times when you do not have upgrades, the pets' output is much more static and much harder to "compete" with given the limited tools you have. Combined with the end cost for tossing out attacks + using secondary powers on the pets for survival / buffs, + how something like Assault can give similar output over time... it gets squirrely. Its sort of like how a Defender can bring a ton of damage to a team by running assault, but you're solo.

 

 

Quote

 

Also, that comparison of Assault versus personal attacks is statistically valid against $Targets with infinite HP that you can keep hitting "forever" ... but it rapidly runs into problems when trying to compute behavioral patterns in which the personal attacks can be used to "focus firepower" onto a specific $Target (or $Targets with the AoE) for more rapid defeats.  I'm talking about hastening the "collapse and rout" conditions wherein there is far greater value in defeating $Targets FASTER, sequentially, even if you wind up doing the exact same amount of damage overall, in parallel.

 

To give you a better sense of what I'm talking about ... let's say just for the sake of argument and illustration purposes that a pile of $Targets needs 20,000 damage dealt to them in order to defeat them all, and there's 10 of them ... so 2000 damage each, just to keep it simple.

 

Is it "better" to spread the damage as evenly as possible, so that all 10 are defeated in unison at the exact same time?

Or is it "better" to concentrate damage firepower so as to defeat some of those 10 faster than others in a way that causes a cascading collapse of the $Targets?

 

The overall time to defeat all 10 is going to be exactly the same either way ... whether the damage spread is "even" or "lumpy" (so to speak).  But if the damage is "lumpy" in that there's some concentration of firepower to defeat some of those 10 faster than others, then those defeats among those 10 reduces the amount of damage that those 10 can then output onto you (the Mastermind) and your Pets, increasing your survival chances in the encounter.  By defeating some faster than others, even if the overall damage required to defeat all 10 is exactly the same, there is a survival benefit that doesn't show up in the raw damage output of Mastermind and Pets, which will then influence gameplay engagement strategy and tactics, as well as build planning and "value weighting" in ways that your direct comparison of personal attacks to Assault simply cannot capture (because you're not looking for it).

It very much depends on the encounter, but in a hypothetical "run 100 missions" type of scenario, I could see Assault giving similar benefit. This is something that could be tested though! As you mention later, running a scenario with and without personal attacks to measure the effect would be interesting. Maybe even directly measuring with and without Assault too.

 

That said, the smooth vs lumpy feeling I think is something that is a turn off for many players when trying the attacks, depending on the primary. If your attacks don't do much besides damage, and they don't do is efficiently like with Ninjas, then it can feel like your resources could have been better spent. Worse yet, the costs of attacking and say something hits the fan and you're low on end to try and heal does not feel good. There is a reason many people skip the attacks, I have a feeling it is due to what I am observing with minimal damage contribution on top of the costs giving them a bad perception, even if using them can end up being "cheaper".

 

 

Quote

Hope that helps.

 

Again, this is something that can be demonstrated via gameplay video relatively easily ... but we're not allowed to post gameplay videos here on Homecoming.  However, it is something that can be "demoed" via teaming in game.  You just need a Mastermind who has actually taken their personal attacks, rather than skipped them, to be able to SEE the differences in engagement strategy options and overall Pet survival/effectiveness.  Now I wonder where you might be able to find one of those, since they're so RARE ...

It definitely does! As for the videos, does having a private vid that is shared within the forum count....? 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Redlynne]

7 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

The Ninja personal attacks account for roughly 5.5% of the total damage output when combined with your Ninjas, and similarly when mixed in indefinitely account for ~14% of the DPS.

 

ST only:

Blazing Arrow -->  Ranged Shot -->  Aimed Shot -->  Snap Shot -->  Blazing Arrow

2/5 powers, 118.42/800.11 (14.8%) [Hey, look at that]

There we go.  What that is demonstrating to me is that Snap Shot+Aimed Shot for a Ninja Mastermind is operating at a comparable output level to an */Archery Defender under relatively equal(-ish, if you squint hard enough) assumptions.  In other words, the proportion of damage contributed from the personal attacks is not a "bug" but rather an established "feature" of the powers selected to port over to the Mastermind version.

11 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

That said, the smooth vs lumpy feeling I think is something that is a turn off for many players when trying the attacks, depending on the primary. If your attacks don't do much besides damage, and they don't do is efficiently like with Ninjas, then it can feel like your resources could have been better spent.

And that's where the boot rubber meets the head.

It really is something that you have to experience in order to grasp the full sense of the difference ... particularly when combined with P2W Origin attack powers.  Something that I've been doing on my Ninja Mastermind is opening with the (magic) Blackwand followed by Snap Shot, Aimed Shot, Snap Shot.  My Ninjas will "pitch in" with Shurikens and Poison Dart while the $Target is charging towards me, and often times they'll get defeated before they get all that close.  Sometimes I can single pull (usually based on positioning) and sometimes I can't, but if I've got more than 1 $Target inbound, all I have to do is line them up in the Fistful of Arrows cone and tag them both.  Sometimes I can even nail all 3 incoming $Targets with Fistful of Arrows while they're charging towards melee range.  In most cases, however, this means that from a starting group of 3 Minions I basically only need to worry about 2 (or less) Minions even getting close, and their initial attacks are going to be against my (Tankerminding) Mastermind which my Pets then "react" to from the Defensive/Follow or Defensive/Stay positions.  In other words, I LURE the $Targets towards me and dismantle them with ranged attacks (personal and Ninjas) while they're closing.  That then means that in a lot of cases a 3 Minion spawn group is whittled down to only 2 $Targets by the time they get into melee range, and those 2 $Targets might not even be at full HP by the time they get to melee range with my Mastermind.

 

But yes, it's a rather "lumpy" kind of damage production profile that's got a sense of "this is so stupid it might just work..." due to how it basically "pre-damages" $Targets sufficiently before they can get into melee range.  The best part is that what would otherwise be a fight with a spawn group that could have potentially inflicted major damage onto my Ninjas can sometimes end with the Ninja Pets relatively unscathed and not need healing after some fights.  That lack of a need for healing (in that specific fight) then informs me that playing my Mastermind in a decidedly offense oriented fashion so as to supplement the damage dealt by my Pets winds up being the superior option to simply being a PBAoE Buff Bot.

33 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

There is a reason many people skip the attacks

Yes, there is ... unfortunately.

[Galaxy Brain]

41 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

There we go.  What that is demonstrating to me is that Snap Shot+Aimed Shot for a Ninja Mastermind is operating at a comparable output level to an */Archery Defender under relatively equal(-ish, if you squint hard enough) assumptions.  In other words, the proportion of damage contributed from the personal attacks is not a "bug" but rather an established "feature" of the powers selected to port over to the Mastermind version.

Oh, no its not. Snap + Aimed + Fistful is like 5%-10% of the ninja output, though that is in part to the great damage ninjas can do. The *average* for all the MMs was 14% ish which included Mercs and Bots where they had much higher contributions to DPS, but this was just cycling attacks and not using the actual attack chains the AI attempts.

 

What would be better would be to try and nail the attack chains per pet and see what compares to the 3 mm attacks after that. Though that would take a minute.

 

Also eyeballing the equivalent powers in other sets (aside from demons and beasts) to see how they contribute.

[BGSacho]

I'd like to contribute my own table which tries to evaluate the effectiveness of the primaries as well. Caution: it's still a work in progress, and some things are missing from it. Here's the table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_yMtB-68XEcXEdmUmxf7p0RBd5KYLhbE2dsQXk0CMek/edit?usp=sharing

For primary attacks, there are a few important things to consider:

- DPS from procs
- EPS(endurance per second)

- Fill %(assuming you cast it on cd, how much of your available time the attack would take up - e.g. an attack with 1s AT, 3s recharge would have a 25% fill rate)

 

Procs are especially important as they are the primary source of damage for MM powers. In order to simplify calculations, I consider purple procs to be worth x2 normal procs - the math holds for powers with <12s recharge rates.

The attacks assume a 0% damage buff as I think slotting accuracy, endurance and procs is more important than any damage%. There's a column for the rare powers where you would slot damage%, and of course, you would often have an alpha 

MM primary attacks aren't as bad as people make them out to be. For example, the baseline for most good dominator attacks is about ~25 dps. 


For the pets, I've found that simply adding up their rotations isn't enough. For some pets it's even theoretically impossible to use all their attacks - they have a fill rate > 100%. Beyond that, the pet AI does not use attacks optimally, and there seems to be a bit of a delay sometimes when choosing what attack to execute. This leads to a situation where pets will actually spend time doing nothing, even if they have attacks off CD. I've tried to model this behavior by introducing something called a fill% penalty. From my experience on pylon tests, the fill% penalty seems to model pets fairly close to their actual performance, but I haven't tested all ATs(I primarily play demons, thugs and necro).

 

Again for pets it's very important to count the number of procs they can use. Enforcers are merely middle of the pack with no procs, but when you add them, they become monsters(their proc damage is actually 50% higher than their regular damage!)


Some quick conclusions from my POV:

- the pets aren't as good and primary attacks aren't as bad as it might seem. Spamming lash can yield ~40-50 dps, which is going to be close to what the top T3 pets can pull.
- the key to good dps for MMs, just like defenders, is procs. This usually rules out the T1 power because in most cases it's a simple ranged attack, and that only provides access to "3" procs(1 purple + 1 normal). Good powers provide at least "4" or "5". The T2 power is usually the only one really worth taking for ST dps. The AoE power is sometimes worth taking for AoE DPS. You need to look to the generic and epic pools for other good powers. Arcane Bolt and Cross Punch(with both synergies) are both decent, usually slightly worse than the T2. The epic pool hold provides an OK DPS(roughly T1 levels) but at a much lower endurance cost. 

- I don't think it's realistic to take a full 'attack chain' on an MM like other ATs. You still want to use your secondary powers regularly. It also puts a huge strain on your slotting. I would take 2(T2 + T3) attacks most of the time, maximum 3(epic pool hold). 

Comparing attacks to assault isn't really fair...that's one of the weakest powers you can take. Spamming lash without end reduction costs about ~2 eps. If assault was x5 the effectiveness for x5 the cost, it would also be ~2 eps, and provide about 55% ED. If I add that to my table, I see a boost of roughly 40 dps - pretty much the same thing! 

 

One last thing: I spent most of a day trying to nail down attack chains for some of the pets. The end result was...they're not very consistent. What might be more useful is a statistical approach - e.g. fight pylons x10 times in a predictable way(I use a /dark taunting tankermind to keep attention off the pets), then collect the combat logs and count how many attacks of each type each pet made - this should get us a rough approximation of how many uses per second each power gets. I actually have a log parser tool to do this, and I might consider doing a few runs for science this week.

Edited May 20, 2020 by BGSacho

[Monos King]

5 minutes ago, BGSacho said:

Some quick conclusions from my POV:

- the pets aren't as good and primary attacks aren't as bad as it might seem. Spamming lash can yield ~40-50 dps, which is going to be close to what the top T3 pets can pull.
- the key to good dps for MMs, just like defenders, is procs. This usually rules out the T1 power because in most cases it's a simple ranged attack, and that only provides access to "3" procs(1 purple + 1 normal). Good powers provide at least "4" or "5". The T2 power is usually the only one really worth taking for ST dps. The AoE power is sometimes worth taking for AoE DPS. You need to look to the generic and epic pools for other good powers. Arcane Bolt and Cross Punch(with both synergies) are both decent, usually slightly worse than the T2. The epic pool hold provides an OK DPS(roughly T1 levels) but at a much lower endurance cost.

Appreciate the contributions, I'll be sure to look at those tables you added! It's important to note that we absolutely cannot be balancing off of IOs (procs included), and that masterminds actual source of damage is not currently very slottable, however. Enforcers is a nice exception, but not every powerset has the secondary effects to making proc blasting viable or even possible for the pets. Damage alone is not the sole concern as well, as auras currently occupy high priority in slotting because it doesn't matter how much damage you do if you are dead. 

 

Any set can do decent damage with procs, but if you would rather slot for endurance and recharge (which with MMs end penalty is definitely something you will want to do for viable attacking) proc space is an eerily painful route to go if you aren't an uber incarnate IO'd monster that can handle it. 

 

I personally have little issue with the current damage of mastermind attacks, but various people that play masterminds do, and I see where they are coming from. The primaries are definitely not comparable to overall pet damage either at higher levels, so they are about as good as people consider them to be.  

[BGSacho]

EDIT: nvm, stupid point

Edited May 20, 2020 by BGSacho

[Galaxy Brain]

Amazing stuff @BGSacho! As Monos said though, procs are very shaky to use as a balance point given how variable they are set to set, power to power, or even proc to proc. If the baselines are in a better spot, then I think there is a stronger foundation for all players.

 

As for the Pet chains, this is something I'm testing as well with just the Rikti dummies on the test server and monitoring pet attack use over X time frame to get averages. My hypothesis is that it is not too too far off from our initial ballparks though when it comes to comparative strengths. If we get estimates on how often their powers come into rotations, the "average"  chains can be assumed as well without necessarily needing a pylon (which has other factors).

[Galaxy Brain]

@BGSacho, @Redlynne, @Monos King, decided to look at Beasts first for attack chains and had each pet try out ~100 attacks to see what we're looking at. 

 

Assuming we put in  3dam/1acc-rech-end into the attacks as normal, a chain of Swarm-Hawk-Swarm-Swarm deals a respectable 48.47 DPS. Alternating Hawk and Ravens would actually be similar at 48.19 DPS, but that is also a lot more expensive. Using all 3 in tandem actually lowers to 46.65 dps, so we'll assume one of the former options.

 

After 100 attacks, we could see the following:

 

WOLF	Usage
Howl	6.00%
Feral Charge	26.00%
Maiming Bite	26.00%
Vicious Bite	40.00%
Wild Charge	2.00%

 

Taking their arcana times for the attacks, and the damage with 3 SO's worth of enhancement this equates to 24.95 DPS.

However, the Wolves provide Howls, Wild Charges, Pack Mentality, and the MM gives them supremacy which will boost their performance up to 39.63 DPS!

This adds up to about 115 DPS total with 3 wolves, and the slight dip from the Alpha Wolf not attacking as non stop.

Since they are -2 levels, these values are actually lowered by 0.8x = 19.96 / 31.70 / 90

 

 

LIONESS	Usage
Claw Swipe	22.00%
Claw Rake	42.00%
Vicious Bite	30.00%
Lions Roar	4.00%
Wild Charge	2.00%

 

At base, they dish out  40.89 DPS. with their boosts this bumps up to 65.89 DPS

With 2 Lionesses, this adds up to 131.79 DPS 

Since they are -1 levels, these values are actually lowered by 0.9x = 36.80 / 59.30 / 118.61

 

 

DIRE WOLF	Usage
Chilling Howl	18.00%
Freezing Roar	16.00%
Maiming Bite	28.00%
Vicious Bite	36.00%
Wild Charge	2.00%

 

At base, it dishes out  37.71 DPS. with their boosts this bumps up to 57.43 DPS

The Dire Wolf takes a hit with it's animations being much slower than the other beasts, otherwise it still deals the most total damage.

 

 

SUMMARY	DPS	%
Mastermind	48.47	15.41%
Wolves	90	28.62%
Lionesses	118.61	37.71%
Dire Wolf	57.43	18.26%
Total	314.51

 

Adding this all up, it appears that the Beast MM can output a decent amount in comparison to the total, but lets see what happens if the MM doesn't contribute and just decides to sit back and use Assault instead...

 

Lazy MM	DPS	%
Mastermind	Assault	(+ 11.25%)
Wolves	95	30.21%
Lionesses	123.28	39.20%
Dire Wolf	59.83	19.02%
Total	278.11

 

278.11 / 314.51 = 88.43% the DPS total. So, in the case of Beasts it seems to pay off actually using their Attacks! With Assault it's even better of course as you buff yourself too.

 

For giggles, lets look at the comparison with our changes to Wolf levels, + the slight changes suggested to Lionesses:

 

 

New	DPS	%
Mastermind	48.47	13.78%
Wolves	105	29.85%
Lionesses	140.87	40.05%
Dire Wolf	57.43	16.33%
Total	351.77

 

An overall increase of 11.85% DPS, the drop in the MM contribution is notable but not bad.

 

What is a good takeaway here though is that the MAJORITY of damage for beasts comes from the lower tiered pets. Having them be as fragile as they are can lead to cascading DPS failure where each lost pet debuffs your damage output by 10-20%

Edited May 22, 2020 by Galaxy Brain
Typo, caused a big oof in calculations

[Redlynne]

13 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

decided to look at Beasts first for attack chains and had each pet try out ~100 attacks to see what we're looking at.

EXCELLENT work.

This kind of analysis is the kind of thing that allows you to start getting a handle on how the primary powerset(s) perform AND integrate between Mastermind and Pets.  I would point out that Beasts are even more layered/complicated than you analysis is showing here due to Pack Mentality and how use of personal attacks will stack Pack Mentality deeper/faster than simply letting the Pets do all the work for you on stacking up Pet Mentality.  So there's even another layer of possibilities above and beyond this, with the way Pack Mentality promotes critical hits by your Pets.

 

 

 

Now to do the same thing for all the other primary powersets, so as to get a "sense of the contours" of how each primary powerset fits together (better or not), what skipping the personal attacks might "cost you" in terms of damage potential, and what sort of "shapes" those contours make from which additional theorycrafting can be generated on the relative "value" of personal attack powers to each primary (and why).

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

EXCELLENT work.

This kind of analysis is the kind of thing that allows you to start getting a handle on how the primary powerset(s) perform AND integrate between Mastermind and Pets.  I would point out that Beasts are even more layered/complicated than you analysis is showing here due to Pack Mentality and how use of personal attacks will stack Pack Mentality deeper/faster than simply letting the Pets do all the work for you on stacking up Pet Mentality.  So there's even another layer of possibilities above and beyond this, with the way Pack Mentality promotes critical hits by your Pets.

Agreed, though I did factor in the boosts PM gives on average in the final DPS values for the pets 🙂

 

It is good to see that it is also seemingly worthwhile using the attacks for Beasts tho outside of just getting PM faster. It will be interesting what the others show since Beast attacks have a plethora of bonuses that they lack.

 

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

 

 

Now to do the same thing for all the other primary powersets, so as to get a "sense of the contours" of how each primary powerset fits together (better or not), what skipping the personal attacks might "cost you" in terms of damage potential, and what sort of "shapes" those contours make from which additional theorycrafting can be generated on the relative "value" of personal attack powers to each primary (and why).

My hypothesis so far is that if they arent Beasts, Demons or Ninja.... the results will be sketchy. 

[BGSacho]

8 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Taking their arcana times for the attacks, and the damage with 3 SO's worth of enhancement this equates to 24.95 DPS.

However, the Wolves provide Howls, Wild Charges, Pack Mentality, and the MM gives them supremacy which will boost their performance up to 51.2 DPS!

This adds up to about 150 DPS total with 3 wolves, and the slight dip from the Alpha Wolf not attacking as non stop.

Since they are -2 levels, these values are actually lowered by 0.8x = 19.96 / 40.96 / 120

Can you break down how this calculation works? If the dps with 3 SOs(~95%, let's round to 100%) is ~25, then the base dps is 12.5. You add supremacy(25%), pack mentality(20%), Howl(? assuming optimal usage, ~18% since it has 15s duration/60s recharge * 3, round to 20%), wild charge(~7.5%). That's a total of 72.5% * 12.5 = ~9dps, for a total of ~34 dps. Apply a multiplier of 20% on top of that(pack mentality crit) and I get ~41 dps before the purple patch.

 

Quote

Adding this all up, it shockingly appears that you can out damage the Dire Wolf, at least for ST DPS. The Beast MM can output a decent amount in comparison to the total, but lets see what happens if the MM doesn't contribute and just decides to sit back and use Assault instead...

This is pretty much my experience from playing thugs and demons. Rotating 2 attacks(e.g. lash and cross punch) deals slightly more damage than your T3. That's why I think primary attacks can't just be discarded! Of course, it's an immense end drain to use them, but if you want to push your maximum DPS, you should be using at least one. There's also a "breakpoint" effect when fighting +4 AVs - if you haven't cancelled out their regen completely, the DPS you could personally add is multiplied in effectiveness(and least affected by purple patch!), since your pet DPS has to beat their regen first.

 

Quote

Lazy MM	DPS	%
Mastermind	Assault	(+ 11.25%)
Wolves	130	45.64%
Lionesses	83.83	29.43%
Dire Wolf	39.62	13.91%
Total	253.45

 

253.48 / 284.86 = 88.97% the DPS total. So, in the case of Beasts it seems to pay off actually using their Attacks! With Assault it's even better of course as you buff yourself too.

Assault adds +11.25 ED%, so napkin math it wouldn't add more than (12.5 base dps) * (3 wolves) * 11.25% = ~4.5 dps to the wolves(multiplied by pack mentality, let's say 5-6 dps). I didn't do the math for the rest but I think you're overestimating its effects(applying it a as a multiplier instead of additive damage bonus). Supremacy, Pack Mentality(except for the crit), Howl, Wild Charge, Assault are all addtiive ED% bonuses, added on top of the SO ED%. If assault was an actual 11.25% damage multiplier it'd be pretty good and almost every MM would take it.

Edited May 22, 2020 by BGSacho

[Redlynne]

5 hours ago, BGSacho said:

If assault was an actual 11.25% damage multiplier it'd be pretty good and almost every MM would take it.

It is +% to base damage ... not x% to already enhanced damage.

This shouldn't need to be explained.

[Galaxy Brain]

@BGSacho, @Redlynne, @Monos King

 

Made a big oof in the enhancement table since I was multitasking at work which made the wolves better and the Lions/Dire Wolf worse.... and possibly applied enhancements to my work numbers but hopefully ED kicks in there. Edits are in the OG post.

 

Turns out the MM attacks are still comparable to the Dire Wolf, though your pet does outdo you, and the lion's share of Damage Output is where its supposed to be. Still, you put out respectable damage with your own Beast Attacks that falls right in between a Single Wolf and a Single Lioness.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Redlynne]

11 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

you put out respectable damage with your own Beast Attacks that falls right in between a Single Wolf and a Single Lioness.

Ever wanted to have a 7th Pet in your primary?

Well now you can!

Just pick and slot your 3 primary personal attacks and YOU can be your 7th (Tier 1 or 2) Pet!  Absolutely FREE like you would expect!

 

Now how much would you pay?

Don't answer, because you also ge-

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[Galaxy Brain]

Time to Necro this thread with Necro:

 

MM Attacks

Following the 3dam/1rech-acc-end slotting, we have two solid options:

1. Gloom --> Dark Blast --> Dark Blast --> Gloom = 65.61 DPS / 5.13 EPS
2. Gloom --> Dark Blast --> Life Drain --> Dark Blast --> Gloom = 59.89 DPS / 4.73 EPS / 11.27 HPS 

The latter using Life Drain lowers DPS by ~10%, but you also spend ~8% less endurance and gain +11.27 Health per Sec (10% heal per Life Drain, base of 80.32)

For our purposes, lets look at the first one for strict DPS comparison at the end. As before, the pets have 95% damage enhancement, and have Supremacy added.

 

 

ZOMBIE	Usage
Projectile Vomit	20.00%
Siphon Life	10.00%
Zombie Brawl	50.00%
Zombie Vomit	20.00%

 

Zombies don't have any special perks like other MM pets, so they provide a static 27.50 DPS

With all three, this is 82.49 DPS

 

 

GRAVE KNIGHT	Usage
Dark Blast	42.00%
Siphon Life	10.00%
Hack	12.00%
Head Splitter	10.00%
Slash	14.00%
Disembowel	12.00%

 

What surprised me here was how often the Knights use Dark Blast. Each one contributes about 42.58 DPS

Together, they contribute 85.15 DPS

 

 

LICH	Usage
Life Drain	14.00%
Tenebrous Tentacles	18.00%
Fearsome Stare	10.00%
Torrent	14.00%
Dark Blast	32.00%
Petrifying Gaze	12.00%

 

With 2 non damaging powers, and 1 power that does a whopping 6 damage at lvl 50, 26% of the time the Lich isn't doing much damage if at all leading to 27.43 DPS.

 

 

GHOST	Usage
Ghastly Blast	62.00%
Life Drain	22.00%
Necroplasmic Grasp	16.00%

 

Lastly, the Ghosts you can summon from Soul Extraction add an extra 33.18 DPS on average.

 

Lets check the totals

 

SUMMARY	DPS	%
Mastermind	65.61	25.17%
Zombies	82.49	31.64%
Grave Knights	85.15	32.66%
Lich	27.43	10.52%
Ghost (Avg)	0	0.00%
Total	260.68

 

+ 1 GHOST	DPS	%
Mastermind	65.61	22.33%
Zombies	82.49	28.07%
Grave Knights	85.15	28.98%
Lich	27.43	9.33%
Ghost (Avg)	33.18	11.29%
Total	293.86

 

For Necro, the attacks actually add a SIGNIFICANT amount of damage given how weak the Lich is, on top of how you actually do have decently hard hitting blasts in exchange for no AoE. However, this changes the more Ghosts you can accumulate.

 

Lets add 100% global recharge on top of the recharge slotting for Soul Extraction so that we can have 2 Ghosts out. 

Gloom - Life Drain - Gloom still ends up being 65 DPS (lol), so the MM portion won't change:

 

+ 2 GHOST	DPS	%
Mastermind	65.61	20.06%
Zombies	82.49	25.22%
Grave Knights	85.15	26.04%
Lich	27.43	8.39%
Ghost (Avg)	66.36	20.29%
Total	327.04

 

Overall, it seems Necro may be in an OK spot except for the time you need to actually summon more Ghosts to the party. Since the Zombies are more likely to give you Ghosts, the DPS likewise will dip down as well, though not that significantly.

 

Lets see what happens when the MM is replaced with Assault for giggles

 

Lazy MM	DPS	%
Mastermind	Assault	(+ 11.25%)
Zombies	86.71	31.56%
Grave Knights	89.51	32.57%
Lich	28.83	10.49%
Ghost (Avg)	69.74	25.38%
Total	274.79	= 84.02%

 

Yeah, not using the personal attacks for Necro is a significant loss. 

 

Now, with our proposed changes the biggest X factors are the Lich with it's Containment, and how you can have far more Ghosts out at a time. Keeping things in the set, the Lich can proc containment on only 3 powers realistically, as it's 4th damaging power is a self-detonation. Realistically, we could apply a 1.5x multiplier to it's output to average out the contained damage and having to contain things. 

 

The Lich also provides you with +1 Ghosts on average since it can use Soul Extraction in our changes, and using it once within the attack chains should leave it at an estimated 37.51 DPS, much more than before! 

 

With 95% recharge enhancement in Soul Extraction, you can maintain 3 Ghosts at a time. 4 with the Lich.

With 200% recharge, you can get ~5 ghosts for a very short time. 6 with the Lich.

 

Lets look at the proposed changes with 4 and 6 ghosts each. (Other changes include +1 lvl to Zombies, and a small crit chance on Knight  Disembowel)

 

 

4 Ghosts	DPS	%
Mastermind	65.61	15.80%
Zombies	92.81	22.36%
Grave Knights	86.5	20.84%
Lich	37.51	9.04%
Ghost (Avg)	132.72	31.97%
Total	415.15	27% more DPS than 2 ghosts / vanilla

 

6 Ghosts	DPS	%
Mastermind	65.61	13.63%
Zombies	92.81	19.27%
Grave Knights	86.5	17.96%
Lich	37.51	7.79%
Ghost (Avg)	199.08	41.34%
Total	481.51	47% more DPS than 2 ghosts / vanilla

 

We see a significant increase to performance as expected, though this comes with an abundant endurance hit for using Soul Extraction often + needing to reliably summon from targets to get rolling. 

 

1 Ghost (Lich)	DPS	%
Mastermind	65.61	20.79%
Zombies	92.81	29.41%
Grave Knights	86.5	27.41%
Lich	37.51	11.88%
Ghost (Avg)	33.18	10.51%
Total	315.61	21% more DPS than vanilla

 

 

Looking at the totals without Soul Extraction (From you), we could in theory lump in the single Ghost with the Lich and have it contribute a solid 22% of the total, bringing it in line with the other pet tiers. 

 

[Redlynne]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Looking at the totals without Soul Extraction (From you), we could in theory lump in the single Ghost with the Lich and have it contribute a solid 22% of the total, bringing it in line with the other pet tiers. 

Almost as if the design intent was to balance around having 1 Ghost active at all times ...

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, Redlynne said:

Almost as if the design intent was to balance around having 1 Ghost active at all times ...

Correct, but with Global recharge boosts you can get 2 now, and it also actively needs you to have a pet die which is a hastle for a few reasons

[Redlynne]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Correct, but with Global recharge boosts you can get 2 now, and it also actively needs you to have a pet die which is a hastle for a few reasons

Necro/Traps has Detonator ...  💣