Electric/kinetic?

[Lynkon]

In all my years of playing CoH I’ve never been about the numbers or the logic of builds or thinking through really anything I’ve done gameplay-wise, but... does electric/kinetics make sense? Is this one of those combos where there’s not a lot of synergy going on? 
 

I haven’t played an electric controller, but the chain knockdown looks insanely fun. I never had a high level kinetics character back in live, either. 

[Mercurias]

If your goal is to make a character who is extremely effective on a team, an Elec/Kin Troller is going to serve you well. If you want to be able to solo content easily? Well it'll be easy thanks to all the control, but the lack of damage is going to make is very slow going. Mostly you'll find that your team is super interested in your /Kinetics powers, and because of how powerful and fast-paced your support is you'll end up not having a lot of chance to use your primary.

 

If you would *really* like to focus on the Electric Control side of things as well as solo, I'd recommend a dominator.

[Hjarki]

Yes, it makes sense.

 

Electric Control is one of - if not the - strongest primaries from the standpoint of pure control. Static Field is the near-universal answer to all control problems - it self-stacks magnitude to hold bosses, it recharges quickly, it's unaffected by PTOD and it creates Containment. The secondary effect - End Drain - means that even temporarily locking down a spawn can end up being a permanent lockdown as you floor their endurance/recovery.

 

The key realization is that Kinetics means you slot your controls as controls. There's no reason to slot them for damage since Fulcrum Shift will cap your +damage anyway. Moreover, you can use powers from Epic/Patron - Stone is a good choice - as your primary damage mechanism.

 

[Coyote]

Kinetics works best with a primary that can support its lack of defense, and that start its defensive strengths early. Electric certainly fits that.

Electric works best with a secondary that does some damage on its own because it doesn't have high damage, and Kinetics is so-so on that front... it doesn't do any damage, but it does buff damage a lot. Shame that Electric doesn't have much damage outside of using procs to buff.

 

So you'll be fine on defense, great on teams, and pretty low on damage until you get to the epics. At that point you can take Epics (Stone or Ice are my favorites for doing damage) and fill the lack of damage. Then, between excellent defense and finally some solid damage, the character should be very strong even solo.

[Psyonico]

Another synergy is both sets like to play in melee, so there's that.

[Mercurias]

I slapped together a super-basic build for a melee-focused Elec/Kin if you want to see what it looks like. I'm sure someone like Coyote could blow it out of the water, but...I tried? I mean, I'd probably play it.

 

Basically it'll alternate between Jolting Chain and Crosspunch in melee while everything is locked down and the imps are running wild. Staying close to bosses and using Repel helps keep enemies under control that would otherwise be swinging hard at you, and when confronted with an enemy who can't be knocked down? Transference and Static Field'll take all the fight out of 'em. Jolting Chain and Repel are BFFs that I slotted with Sudden Acceleration procs to keep enemies from flying across the room. 

 

Spoiler

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.1.25
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Zip-Zap: Level 50 Science Controller
Primary Power Set: Electric Control
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Tesla Cage -- SprEnt-Rchg/AbsorbProc(A), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End/Rchg(43), SprEnt-Acc/Hold(43), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End(43), SprEnt-Hold/Rchg(46), Lck-%Hold(48)
Level 1: Transfusion -- Prv-Heal/Rchg(A), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(21), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(39), Prv-Absorb%(40), Prv-Heal(40), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(40)
Level 2: Siphon Power -- Acc-I(A)
Level 4: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(5)
Level 6: Jolting Chain -- SuddAcc--KB/+KD(A), Apc-Dam%(7), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(9), GldJvl-Dam%(11), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Thn-Acc/Dmg(21)
Level 8: Chain Fences -- Ann-ResDeb%(A), EnfOpr-Acc/EndRdx(9)
Level 10: Siphon Speed -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(11)
Level 12: Static Field -- SprOvrPrs-Rchg/Energy Font(A), SprOvrPrs-EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(15), SprOvrPrs-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg(15), SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(19)
Level 14: Boxing -- SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(48), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(50), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(50), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(50)
Level 16: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), GldArm-End/Res(17), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(17)
Level 18: Increase Density -- ResDam-I(A)
Level 20: Speed Boost -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 22: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(23), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(23)
Level 24: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(25), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(25)
Level 26: Synaptic Overload -- CrcPrs-Conf%(A), CrcPrs-Conf/EndRdx(27), CrcPrs-Conf/Rchg(27), CrcPrs-Acc/Conf/Rchg(29), CrcPrs-Acc/Rchg(29)
Level 28: Inertial Reduction -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 30: Tactics -- GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(31), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(31), GssSynFr--ToHit(31), GssSynFr--Build%(34), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(37)
Level 32: Gremlins -- ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(A), ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), CaltoArm-+Def(Pets)(34), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(34)
Level 35: Transference -- EffAdp-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(A), EffAdp-Acc/Rchg(36), EffAdp-EndMod/Rchg(36), EffAdp-EndMod(36), EffAdp-EndMod/EndRdx(37), EffAdp-EndMod/Acc(37)
Level 38: Fulcrum Shift -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 41: Scorpion Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(42), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(42), Ksm-ToHit+(42)
Level 44: Cross Punch -- Arm-Dam%(A), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Arm-Acc/Rchg(45), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(46), SuddAcc--KB/+KD(46)
Level 47: Repel -- SuddAcc--KB/+KD(A), EndRdx-I(48)
Level 49: Kick -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(5), Mrc-Rcvry+(7)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PwrTrns-+Heal(A), PwrTrns-EndMod(3), PrfShf-End%(3)
Level 50: Agility Radial Paragon 
Level 50: Ion Radial Final Judgement 
Level 50: Diamagnetic Radial Flawless Interface 
Level 50: Robotic Drones Core Superior Ally 
Level 50: Clarion Core Epiphany 
Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment 
------------

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build |
		|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
		|MxDz;1569;719;1438;HEX;|
		|78DA6D94CD4F135114C567DA81420129B48552406891CFD242D58D5F21110115484|
		|8485C9028366580499AD2B435D1A57B542012579A98F8C5C63FC0C444A3FE176E04|
		|0D8222C418171A53EFCC39D86A9DB4F39B39EFDE77CFBB6F66C6AF9EA97C3A727D4|
		|0515D83895826333DB890CCA61712093DED988C1B7A32AE2B7238A68C54782A9672|
		|C8755B3E643F3A3294D0E3D9B411DF177C0531A7AFCCCE46468DA49E35E219C539B|
		|120F193295D9FA9B22E878DB9F9AC919CABB6EEC6F4D88C9ECECC1BA90A8C26CCE1|
		|A6A194118F14CC391E8BEB72CA64F5F4359F788ACA7FC32527D5749B2B51DE68226|
		|A4ACF6BF205F90A0CBF04FB7ED82C0E5979CCFD64B734CF36D8B10576EE901FC9CF|
		|E0B06A963527C829AA5FB1B4A034CA0E2FAA3D044D233F88CF12D62AD9808FD2287|
		|C94DD478CB31773D7DEC3BDE72EF85E721DC8551D9B88295B512D9E1594AB366BAC|
		|9C3E9CACB9297915AC59D18C9A957EB2093CD0483680B53E50958255C8D5AA56D9B|
		|7DB6074895C265740BBE45463FDB6EAC3F0E98A92F532201ECE096A30AF52D30B9F|
		|E745735373B7B26F3297977379BD586B9D877481351253CF987AC6F818E363CC96F|
		|4A081EB6888A1DFFECBE445B0E912390D8E4A6A23FD34BE85E6965ACD7CCE9A1F43|
		|3BF8887C483E00036BE0A127E0B67868E13EB4EC416BFD46EE925F99BB6EB3FA147|
		|887BE8D49CD2073833711D3768BBC412EB2DE32B9048E4B6EBB5A6AF5A79DCF4647|
		|E86FAECA6674615DF62EF6B09B3DEC660FBB7F2996A7C5764509D14BE8146AF49E2|
		|44F90C7C1F03192CFFA884C15E1BB11A1D61780079BF4B69FFDEE9F1004652FB43F|
		|EFA6FCE4300DEC2BB99EA2D1FE22255AA41C29528E16296345CA84C60F8CF9A65B4|
		|AB9ECA79D4E769C32AA72348CF5ECE6359B1AC03E6A17D0CB52F361EFD4942F8579|
		|5DC8DB2BCCFB8E1ED9F6C83BE867EE3FC7CF3A19421E0EBF272F3C77E7AF07BCF9E|
		|B35F73F49CF82F8A29AC26FA45017C0|
		|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Mercurias

[Coyote]

2 hours ago, Mercurias said:

Basically it'll alternate between Jolting Chain and Crosspunch in melee while everything is locked down and the imps are running wild. Staying close to bosses and using Repel helps keep enemies under control that would otherwise be swinging hard at you, and when confronted with an enemy who can't be knocked down? Transference and Static Field'll take all the fight out of 'em. Jolting Chain and Repel are BFFs that I slotted with Sudden Acceleration procs to keep enemies from flying across the room. 

 

Just to note from my experience with an Electric Dominator... if you also take Static Aura and slot up Chain Fences with Acc/End IOs, you will drain mobs FAST. You only have to make plans to survive for a short while (and if you face a tough spawn you can throw the Confuse and Static Field and wait while they soften up the spawn before going in). I found out that between the drain and the regular knockdowns from Jolting Chain and the regular Earth attacks I was doing x5 in the teens, because 3 mobs or 8 mobs around me didn't matter. They weren't doing anything in any case. So you only have to worry about running Repel probably for about 5-8 seconds. Especially if you also throw Jolting Chain and Transference into the Boss to drain him faster. It's very safe, but I would take the Aura, and put a few more slots into Chain Fences, because both will add up with Static Field and just shut spawns down. It worked even for a Dominator, and I actually had to worry about health, while a Kinetic will be able to heal from the alpha strike.

[Without_Pause]

I did reroll my main from live going from Defender to Controller. I think if I were to use one version, the controller would be the one. It is a vastly better pairing. Elec control plays better in melee and having a built in AoE sleep power is a godsend for Kin. The #1 issue for me is in regards to end drain and AVs. I wished it was worth a damn, but it isn't. Regular mobs are rather easy to drain unless they have specific resistance to it, ie Sappers.

[Coyote]

18 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

The #1 issue for me is in regards to end drain and AVs. I wished it was worth a damn, but it isn't.

 

I HAVE drained AVs on a /EA Mastermind, with their lower debuff values, so I expect that a /EA Controller could drain AVs in general, even if it takes a couple of minutes.

As I understand the numbers, a Electric/* Controller should be able to drain better than a */EA, so... I would be surprised if you couldn't build a EC/* Controller (especially with Transfusion to help) and keep an AV drained most of the time.

It does depend on the level of the AV, but I think that +0 (and then +1 with a level shift) should definitely be doable. Again, as long as you're willing to build so that you can survive for a bit as it will take a minute or two to drain it. Plan on running Unleash Potential and/or Melee Hybrid to start the fight, or first one and then the other (you can actually go UP - MH - UP and get 5.5 minutes of increased survivability), in order to survive until the AV is down to 0. After that, it may get occasional ticks of Endurance and make an attack once in a while, but not too often and a secondary like Kinetics with a self-heal shouldn't have a problem with occasional attacks.

[Without_Pause]

Can a +0 AV be drained? Absolutely. The issue is I can count on one hand level 50 teams who I see running below +3. This also ignores how much draining an AV actually impacts their attacks. The build is more than fine. I'm not here to have someone reroll it, but end drain against AVs in HC's meta is an issue. I've seen AVs have their end bar not even go down 20% and a number more not even 50%. Hell, on live I've drained AVs as the rate of their health bar going down.

[JJDrakken]

The problem here. I would like to point out that many people don't remember or just believe in false information. Endo drain on NPC mobs is mostly ineffective. Many mobs codes only require them 0-1 endo to use majority of their powers.  Endo bar on 98% mobs is there for players to draw endo out of for powers most the time or the illusion that you think your doing something. My group since Beta to End, have tested everything we could think or heard discussed.  A lot of times would discuss these with Castle and others as they teamed with us or in tells.

 

End drain is more PvP orientated.

Edited May 27, 2020 by JJDrakken

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Regarding End Drain and AVs its hit or miss; some AVs appear to be immune altogether regardless of levels. Certain factions have members that are immune as well.

I've noticed this also... not sure why but the Endurance bars of some AVs didn't even budge while others were drainable.

 

2 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Can a +0 AV be drained? Absolutely. The issue is I can count on one hand level 50 teams who I see running below +3.

Absolutely, on teams there is no point in trying to drain anything unless the team has multiple sappers... because it will have multiple damage dealers. So even if you do take down the End bar on a +3 AV (and I think that with an End Mod alpha slot you probably can, slowly), the AV will be dead before it's drained. Draining is for soloing or if a team is oriented towards it, so if you want to play on pickup teams, forget about it.

[Hjarki]

2 hours ago, Coyote said:

I've noticed this also... not sure why but the Endurance bars of some AVs didn't even budge while others were drainable.

 

Absolutely, on teams there is no point in trying to drain anything unless the team has multiple sappers... because it will have multiple damage dealers. So even if you do take down the End bar on a +3 AV (and I think that with an End Mod alpha slot you probably can, slowly), the AV will be dead before it's drained. Draining is for soloing or if a team is oriented towards it, so if you want to play on pickup teams, forget about it.

I think this really depends on what you're doing.

 

When you're just farming radio missions, you'll run at +4. Most spawns will simply be blown apart with damage long before you could ever hope to drain them. There aren't any AV/GM because there's no point in a farm.

 

If you're running a task force, you'll normally run at +0 since there's no point making it needlessly difficult when completion is the key result. You can definitely floor AV endurance in such situations and there are certain abilities can floor an entire spawn (Sentinel Thunderous Blast is one example).

 

In solo play, it depends on your goals. In an AE fire farm, you can easily end drain the mobs but it doesn't really serve much purpose - the goal of such places is to have defenses so high that you can ignore their attacks while delivering as much AE damage as possible, not to set up a careful control strategy. If you want to solo a tough Task Force, it can be incredibly useful.

 

GM can easily be end-drained before they're killed in a focused build.

 

That being said:

• It's often less about the End Drain than the recovery debuff. Effects like Transference or Conductive Aura are great for stripping endurance from targets, but they're worthless once you're at the bottom of the end bar. You need recovery debuffs to keep them there. Otherwise, your enemies get a tick of recovery and it's sufficient for them to throw their next ability.
• AV/GM often have zero endurance 'Brawl'-type powers or environmental effects that don't shut down. Even if you drain them to zero and floor their recovery so they're not getting endurance back, there are still things they can do. Regular mobs generally don't have this, so flooring End/Recovery is effectively the same as a Disorient - they can move, but not act.

[JJDrakken]

19 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

I disagree. This is only partially correct.

 

Its true, most mobs only need a sliver of endurance to activate their powers. End Drain is pretty effective when you bring -Recovery into the mix. Its why I built both my Elec/Kin and Elec/Poison to compare and see for my self. The Elec/Poison is more effective at leveraging -End. Why? Poison Trap. Elec/Kin requires more work at keeping them at zero. Against AVs -Recovery is very noticeable. Regardless immunity to -End and -Recovery are the biggest factor in the equation.

 

I recommend /Poison over /Kin if you are looking to build around a -End Sapper concept. Keep in mind it is still a D or F tier secondary effect; behaves similar to Slow effects.

 

Unless stuff was changed after live, we've tested it very extensive & talked with Castle about it. 90% mobs out there need 0-5 endo to use an attack. Again depends on mobs/power being used. Some do have higher endo usage, AVs, GMs, etc..

[Hjarki]

4 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

No not at all. IMO it does boost Elec/ into a top tier level of control if you build around sapping effects but this limits you to certain secondaries that may not be top tier pairings for Elec/. I've not tried /Elec Affin yet so I can't speak to any synergies there. Overall I rank the End Mod effects to a comparable level as Slow effects; unfortunately you won't notice their contributions unless you go "all in".  With that said I hear an all Elec/Poison super team calling me now.

Electric Affinity doesn't really do much in the way of end drain.

 

Poison Trap has a massive, but short duration recovery debuff. As such, it's not really all that helpful.

 

Thermal's Heat Exhaustion is probably the best single target -recovery debuff, but the rest of the set isn't all that impressive for the purpose.

 

Electric/Kinetics is potentially a strong choice since it permits slotting for end drain rather than damage in your primary abilities. However, the norm for */Kinetics is to take this same virtue and slot for defense/control rather than damage - and Electric doesn't magically stop needing defense/control because it drains endurance very well.

 

Storm Summoning is probably my preferred choice. Electric Control doesn't really need help with endurance drain on large crowds - Chain Fences and Conductive Aura do that just fine - so really all you need is the single target end/recovery drain. Lightning Storm actually does an exceptional job of that with being able to stack multiple Storms and having them drain endurance/recovery on each bolt.

 

Something like Electric/Cold/Electric Sentinel is also a candidate for exceptional sapping. Thunderous Blast is one of the only effects that can zero out an entire spawn in a single keypress. Technically, you could make it perma with a 90 sec recharge and 20 sec duration, but that would be tricky.

[Chrome]

On 5/28/2020 at 11:55 PM, Hjarki said:

Poison Trap has a massive, but short duration recovery debuff. As such, it's not really all that helpful.

 i cant find anywhere how long this debuff actually is.  do you know?

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by Chrome

[Hjarki]

26 minutes ago, Chrome said:

 i cant find anywhere how long this debuff actually is.  do you know?

I believe the in-game power description lists a duration for it.