Game Balance & The Endgame

[Ralathar44]

1 minute ago, BitCook said:

Either way, and whichever term, an unslotted lowbie is not contributing much to a +4 team in PI 🙂 

TBH I stopped joining PI teams before getting full frankenslots for a full 100% accuracy because even with 67% accuracy I was missing constantly.  That being said I don't see lowbies being afk in PI radio missions much.  They're not really accomplishing much but they are trying to help at least normally.  AE farming is different to where it's often alot of Powerleveling going on.

[golstat2003]

2 minutes ago, BitCook said:

I'm fine with it too and will offer up unused slots to people as well.  

However, it does speak to the level of power being at a point that 1-2 players is often enough to manage +4 content without any help.  I think this came up as an illustration of that.  I'd have to go back and look where it first came up.

Yeah if one of them is a debuffer that can debuff things into the floor and another a damage dealer, I'm not seeing an issue.

 

And again you're not going to see that in iTrials or most tfs.

 

Radio missions are trash missions so i'm not so worried about those.

Edited September 26, 2020 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

With all that said I would not mind if they did do a few buffs to some support sets that need it. However, there are some support sets that clearly don't need it. And do just fine.

[Ralathar44]

9 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

True. But I'm fine with folks being altrustic and bringing them along. I see no issue with that. Could be their buddy, could be the leader just being nice.

 

Again we're talking about force multiplication where it counts, like on tfs, itrials. That's where support classes shine. And that's where you appreciate what the support classes bring to the table.

 

A radio mission . . . couldn't care less. It's a trash mission just for fun.

Force multiplication matters everywhere people spend time on their high level toons.  Saying Force Multiplication counts more on SOME TFs and Itrials is a valid point and indeed I think that should receive greater weighting.  However people spend the vast majority of their high level time outside of that content.  If people spend 20% of their time in the more difficult content where force multiplication matters and spend 80% of their time in easier stuff where it really doesn't then that means force multiplication doesn't matter 80% of the time.

Both matter, ignoring either side of the equation would be silly.  As you say though it's a set by set basis.  Some sets get hit way harder than others, this is true.  But if kill speeds and safety is high enough on content no amount of buffs to a support set will fix the problem and another solution must be sought.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Ralathar44

[BitCook]

1 minute ago, golstat2003 said:

Yeah if one of them is a debuffer that can debuff things into the floor and another a damage dealer, I'm not seeing an issue.

I'll try to summarize the entire chain quickly.

I have several characters who could offer up that +4 team and tell people to play cards, or doorsit, or whatever.  I can usually clear a mob alone in about 10-15 seconds.  If I'm doing that, I really don't get much benefit if you are buffing/debuffing or not.  It might mean I have to use one more AOE than normal, but with a kill speed of 10-15 seconds there's not much room for improvement unless the debuff is MASSIVE and always up.  Now, I am not the best player by far and people have better clear times than I do.  So after getting a couple of them on a team, there is zero need for any support classes.  They literally add nothing to any of the content I'll face.

I love support classes.  Why I care is that earlier in this thread there were several proposals to nerf some powers which benefitted them.  My argument is that until you find a role for the support classes by solving some of the issues around the game, then nerfing them is just salt in the wound.

That's the issue.  For me at least.  Others in this thread have many other viewpoints.

[golstat2003]

7 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

Force multiplication matters everywhere people spend time on their high level toons.  Saying Force Multiplication counts more on SOME TFs and Itrials is a valid point and indeed I think that should receive greater weighting.  However people spend the vast majority of their high level time outside of that content.  If people spend 20% of their time in the more difficult content where force multiplication matters and spend 80% of their time in easier stuff where it really doesn't then that means force multiplication doesn't matter 80% of the time.

Both matter, ignoring either side of the equation would be silly.  As you say though it's a set by set basis.  Some sets get hit way harder than others, this is true.  But if kill speeds and safety is high enough on content no amount of buffs to a support set will fix the problem and another solution must be sought.

I don't think much buffs are needed at all actually for support sets. I think they are just fine in most content.  A FEW need help like Force Fields or maybe Empahty in higher levels. But that's all I can think of. (Probably some help for MMs too).

 

I was throwing a bone to BitCook (and others position) that SOME support sets need help.

Edited September 26, 2020 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

4 minutes ago, BitCook said:

I'll try to summarize the entire chain quickly.

I have several characters who could offer up that +4 team and tell people to play cards, or doorsit, or whatever.  I can usually clear a mob alone in about 10-15 seconds.  If I'm doing that, I really don't get much benefit if you are buffing/debuffing or not.  It might mean I have to use one more AOE than normal, but with a kill speed of 10-15 seconds there's not much room for improvement unless the debuff is MASSIVE and always up.  Now, I am not the best player by far and people have better clear times than I do.  So after getting a couple of them on a team, there is zero need for any support classes.  They literally add nothing to any of the content I'll face.

I love support classes.  Why I care is that earlier in this thread there were several proposals to nerf some powers which benefitted them.  My argument is that until you find a role for the support classes by solving some of the issues around the game, then nerfing them is just salt in the wound.

That's the issue.  For me at least.  Others in this thread have many other viewpoints.

Ah. Yeah I'm of the opinion that support sets are fine as is generally. They DON'T need any major nerfs or buffs.

 

I think there are a FEW that might need some targetted help, but not to the level that some people were saying in this thread. AKA, Support sets in high level play in need of major help. They are not.

 

I say this as someone who has multiple level 50 defenders, controllers, corrupters, dominators, etc. I play support sets at high level more than the non-support sets.

 

MMs I would say is one group that could use some help though.

Edited September 26, 2020 by golstat2003

[Ralathar44]

3 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I don't think much buffs are needed at all actually for support sets. I think they are just fine in most content.  A FEW need help like Force Fields or maybe Empahty in higher levels. But that's all I can think of.

 

I was throwing a bone to BitCook (and others position) that SOME support sets need help.

TBH I completely agree, I don't think the problem is that support sets are weak with perhaps 1-3 exceptions.  I think the problem is that the ability for their strengths to matter is stepped all over by fully IO'd high level characters.  They still have great power in survivability and utility, but that additional survivability and utility simply is not valuable anymore in most of the high level content.

It's kinda like a scrapper being on a team full of blasters.  Yeah you're not weak but you'll barely ever touch a mob so it doesn't matter.  Now imagine most teams were full of blasters lol.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Ralathar44

[BitCook]

2 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I don't think much buffs are needed at all actually for support sets. I think they are just fine in most content.  A FEW need help like Force Fields or maybe Empahty in higher levels. But that's all I can think of.

 

I was throwing a bone to BitCook (and others position) that SOME support sets need help.

Hey that's fine.  I've explained why I think they have issues in the endgame and what I was looking for. 

I'm fine with people not agreeing and realize since I pretty much exclusively play support classes my viewpoint is likely biased.  I try to lay out why I think why I do and certainly won't demand others think the same way.  All I hope is that someone who is making the decisions sees this and at least thinks about it.

Appreciate the bone.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Ralathar44 said:

TBH I completely agree, I don't think the problem is that support sets are weak with perhaps 1-3 exceptions.  I think the problem is that the ability for their strengths to matter is stepped all over by fully IO'd high level characters.  They still have great power in survivability and utility, but that additional survivability and utility simply is not valuable anymore in most of the high level content.

It's valuable in most of the high level content.

It's not valuable in PI Radios and the like, but that really isn't high level content.

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, Ralathar44 said:

TBH I completely agree, I don't think the problem is that support sets are weak with perhaps 1-3 exceptions.  I think the problem is that the ability for their strengths to matter is stepped all over by fully IO'd high level characters.  They still have great power in survivability and utility, but that additional survivability and utility simply is not valuable anymore in most of the high level content.

Force Fields is one that comes to mind. There was a suggestion in the Suggestion forums to give their shields absorb and a few other things.  That's fine.

 

If you're going to tell me Cold Domination needs major help, I'm going to laugh in your face. LOL

[golstat2003]

Just now, Wavicle said:

It's valuable in most of the high level content.

It's not valuable in PI Radios and the like, but that really isn't high level content.

I think this was the point I was making. I don't consider a radio mission where 90% (unscientific research number here lol) are player blazing through council, to be high level missions.

[Wavicle]

Just now, golstat2003 said:

Force Fields is one that comes to mind. There was a suggestion in the Suggestion forums to give their shields absorb and a few other things.  That's fine.

 

If you're going to tell me Cold Domination needs major help, I'm going to laugh in your face. LOL

Force Fields does need help, but not Absorb.

Would be nice if it had a Constricting Field (functions like Wormhole) instead of Repulsion Field, and if the Cage power was worth a damn.

[Ralathar44]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

It's valuable in most of the high level content.

It's not valuable in PI Radios and the like, but that really isn't high level content.

Another reply I enjoy seeing.  Max level max difficulty is no longer high level content according to the City of Heroes forums.  That rationale speaks for itself in how very very narrow and cherry picked this argument is and how power creeped things have gotten.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Ralathar44

[golstat2003]

Just now, Wavicle said:

Force Fields does need help, but not Absorb.

Would be nice if it had a Constricting Field (functions like Wormhole) instead of Repulsion Field, and if the Cage power was worth a damn.

Honestly I don't know what FF needs, was just pointing out one suggestion made. Yours seems pretty good. lol My FF toons (2) aren't played all that much as I don't like the look of most of the set's powers at all.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Ralathar44 said:

Another reply I enjoy seeing.  Max level max difficulty is no longer high level content according to the City of Heroes forums.  That rationale speaks for itself in how very very narrow and cherry picked this argument is.

It's not. It's technically just 40s content brought up to max level.

High level content is Incarnate content and other lvl 45+ content. Anything you can bring along level 1 SKs on is not high level content.

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, Ralathar44 said:

Another reply I enjoy seeing.  Max level max difficulty is no longer high level content according to the City of Heroes forums.  That rationale speaks for itself in how very very narrow and cherry picked this argument is and how power creeped things have gotten.

I think the issue here is that when you exemp down depending on what level your IOs are you lose alot of that power.

 

I think that's why there is such a distinction of what is and isn't high level content.

[Wavicle]

Heck, Radios aren't really Content at all.

[golstat2003]

9 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Heck, Radios aren't really Content at all.

My 50s with IOs pretty much only do them when I want to relax.

 

When I want to progress (aka get merits for the items that can actually improve my characters---aka I'm playing seriously) I do TFs and iTrials.

 

I don't consider blazing through mission after mission of council as anything serious.

 

Which is a great strength of this game. If I want to have a relaxing time I pop on radio missions for an hour or two. When I want to get serious I bump the difficulty all the way up and get on a high level ts, sf, itrial.  I would hope the upcoming changes don't do anything to damage that possibility.

 

When I'm doing raidos I literally couldn't care less what's on the team. Or who I'm playing with. Team leader wants to bring nothing but blasters sure, nothing but support classes sure. Mix of everything in between, sure. Either way I don't care since we can't fail a radio.

 

You CAN fail ACTUAL high level content.

 

EDIT: Even in the last week i've seen folks fail the BAF, which is the easiest of the iTrials. The later iTrials you most certainly can fail spectacularly also. The Underground Trial and the Reactor one (I forget the name--the one with Positron's Praetorian Doppolganger). I consider that and things like the ITF high level content. Not radio missions of council at level 50. LOL.

Edited September 26, 2020 by golstat2003

[Ralathar44]

3 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Force Fields is one that comes to mind. There was a suggestion in the Suggestion forums to give their shields absorb and a few other things.  That's fine.

 

If you're going to tell me Cold Domination needs major help, I'm going to laugh in your face. LOL

- Force Fields is very effective with the big 3.  I want to say it needs help but I also want to say it's very effective.  It's one of those 1-3 I mentioned, but I'm not so sure of it. 

- Traps suffers worse today from its lack of mobility than it did on live because kill speeds become so fast later on.  While there is still a sliver of content in the game it's more useful, it's drawbacks are definitely larger than they were and FF Generator is less useful than it was with so many people soft capped.  In it's niche of stationary combat I think it's tough enough, I just feel like that niche has gotten small enough it might need a little more mobility.  This is prolly the only one I'd lean towards a buff on, and not a direct effect buff even but more of a QOL/usability buff.

- Poison is in a weird spot.  It's super good at single target debuffing and it does have AOE but the AOE is small and much weaker.  It's also got the proc laden Poison Trap and then Venomous gas.  But it's alot of limitations and hoops to jump through which might not be worth it currently.  But I can't stand playing Poison for some reason so this is just something I'm keeping an eye on and don't know exactly where it stands.

- Trick Arrow is already on the docket for buffs.  I've said many times I play Trick Arrow and it was my main on live.  I'm honestly not sure I would buff it though.  The issues I run into on it are either cases where I'm facing deep purple patch reductions or being on teams where teams steamroll things without any need for me.  Or both.  But I don't think that's necessarily due to the Trick Arrow being weak. and I'm scared if it was buffed to try and compete in the madness that is high level that'd it'd be totally busted mid level.

- Sonic Debuff is something I need to look into.  It's the 3rd lowest defender primary, 2nd lowest Corruptor Primary, and the 3rd lowest Controller secondary.  Theoretically Sonic has a noticable res buff shield, a significant amounts of always up -res, and an earthquake power (albeit with bad uptime).  But it doesn't seem to be enough for anyone to want to use it.  I need to roll an alt to see why people won't use this.  Force Field gets used by people plenty, but the sister res set with alot of -res isn't being used.

[Ralathar44]

Thank you two for so clearly putting that perspective out there.  That's valuable feedback from all of us on how we view things and where our values lie in playing the game.  The HC devs can read that and decide if they are ok with that being the state of the game that we are so powerful that level 50 +4/8 content is no longer considered high level content as well as people views on where force multipliers should and shouldn't matter.  They'll make that decision according to their vision for the game, their metrics, and player feedback.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Ralathar44

[Wavicle]

I think the devs understand perfectly well that 50+4 Radio missions are trash missions, as they were always intended to be. They are there for grinding xp and drops, not testing the limits of your capabilities and skills.

[Ralathar44]

13 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I think the devs understand perfectly well that 50+4 Radio missions are trash missions, as they were always intended to be. They are there for grinding xp and drops, not testing the limits of your capabilities and skills.

Who said anything about testing the limits of your capabilities and skills?  I just want all ATs and powersets, including supports and non-damage controllers, to be valuable and useful in all significantly played content.  This includes Radio missions and the non-bleeding difficulty TF and trials too.  Variability is fine, having teams where you are far less useful is fine, but if it becomes the norm for you to be far less useful than melee/damage powersets in a significant % of played content that's not fine.  As was said on Page 2, everyone wants to feel super.  Not just melee/damage.

I dunno why you have to continue to hyperbolicize things and present arguments that were not being made, you only harm your own position.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Ralathar44

[EpochParadox]

58 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

- Force Fields is very effective with the big 3.  I want to say it needs help but I also want to say it's very effective.  It's one of those 1-3 I mentioned, but I'm not so sure of it. 

- Traps suffers worse today from its lack of mobility than it did on live because kill speeds become so fast later on.  While there is still a sliver of content in the game it's more useful, it's drawbacks are definitely larger than they were and FF Generator is less useful than it was with so many people soft capped.  In it's niche of stationary combat I think it's tough enough, I just feel like that niche has gotten small enough it might need a little more mobility.  This is prolly the only one I'd lean towards a buff on, and not a direct effect buff even but more of a QOL/usability buff.

- Poison is in a weird spot.  It's super good at single target debuffing and it does have AOE but the AOE is small and much weaker.  It's also got the proc laden Poison Trap and then Venomous gas.  But it's alot of limitations and hoops to jump through which might not be worth it currently.  But I can't stand playing Poison for some reason so this is just something I'm keeping an eye on and don't know exactly where it stands.

- Trick Arrow is already on the docket for buffs.  I've said many times I play Trick Arrow and it was my main on live.  I'm honestly not sure I would buff it though.  The issues I run into on it are either cases where I'm facing deep purple patch reductions or being on teams where teams steamroll things without any need for me.  Or both.  But I don't think that's necessarily due to the Trick Arrow being weak. and I'm scared if it was buffed to try and compete in the madness that is high level that'd it'd be totally busted mid level.

- Sonic Debuff is something I need to look into.  It's the 3rd lowest defender primary, 2nd lowest Corruptor Primary, and the 3rd lowest Controller secondary.  Theoretically Sonic has a noticable res buff shield, a significant amounts of always up -res, and an earthquake power (albeit with bad uptime).  But it doesn't seem to be enough for anyone to want to use it.  I need to roll an alt to see why people won't use this.  Force Field gets used by people plenty, but the sister res set with alot of -res isn't being used.

I tried out a sonic resonance defender and ended up deleting it because no amount of -res (or any other buff/debuff) is worth not even being able to see anything else on the screen.. I don't like teaming with people who use it because of the visual 'debuff'. I couldn't find any reasonable settings or color selection to make it work. If there were an option for minimal effects or opacity slider I might reconsider.

 

Also, sonic res isn't the only thing I have visual debuff trouble with... Storm elemental pets anyone? It's like a practical joke sometimes... Stuck in a cave with nothing in view but pink clouds.

Edited September 26, 2020 by EpochParadox

[Wavicle]

40 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

Who said anything about testing the limits of your capabilities and skills?  I just want all ATs and powersets, including supports and non-damage controllers, to be valuable and useful in all significantly played content.  This includes Radio missions and the non-bleeding difficulty TF and trials too.  Variability is fine, having teams where you are far less useful is fine, but if it becomes the norm for you to be far less useful than melee/damage powersets in a significant % of played content that's not fine.  As was said on Page 2, everyone wants to feel super.  Not just melee/damage.

What you're describing is a problem with the content and the mechanics of the game, not individual ATs or powersets. Which is exactly why they've said they want to work on game balance, which I'm all for. That is to say by addressing the imbalances with individual ATs and powersets they can achieve enough balance to then justify creating harder new content.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Wavicle