Eye vs. Blast Attacks

[dtj714]

2 minutes ago, chi1701 said:

If that was true, why did dev ask for it to be updated? 

Which dev?

[Hopestar]

20 hours ago, Doomrider said:

Except that's not how damage scalars work IIRC. They're used to assign a base damage value to the power. Otherwise the base damage on the tool tip would indicate 115.5 for Nova Ebon eye. The 45% damage bonus is a buff granted by the toggle, whose damage bonus applies to powers the same way aim or build up does. 

As an example, lets suppose Blasters had access to Umbral Blast in it's current form, no changes made.  Ebon Eye in human form at 44.49 for the WS with a scalar of .80 would be 25% more at base with blasters 1.0 damage scale. The damage for their ebon eye would be 55.61. If you were to work it back the other way, you could say Warshade's Ebon Eye is essential .80 of the same base damage value used by Blasters. We use blasters as the reference point only because their damage scalar is 1.0. 

Now if we apply this same math between Kheldian forms where human is .80 and nova is 1.20 it starts to make sense, albeit it doesn't apply to Nova Ebon eye which seems to be a strange case but I have theory on that later...

Compare Shadow Bolt (T1) and Ebon Eye (T2) blasts with Nova's equivalent Nova Bolt (T1) and Nova Blast (T2) and it starts to make more sense.

Since Human form uses a ranged mod of .8 and Nova of 1.2 we have essentially a 50% increase in base damage examining the nova form equivalents. (ex. .8 x 1.5 = 1.2)

Shadow Bolt base damage is 26.69. 
26.69 x 1.5 = 40.035... the same base damage as Nova Bolt at 40.04 (tool tip rounds up).

Ebon Eye base damage (in human form) is 44.49.
44.49 x 1.5 = 66.735... the same damage as Nova Blast at 66.73.

This is where that 1.2 scalar is evident. Now as for Nova Ebon Eye this is a weird edge case. I believe they've essentially created a second power behind the scenes when they ported it's use to Nova form.
Because if we take the base damage in the tool tip at 50 and do the reverse math...

77.41 / 1.5 = 51.60

51.60 should be the base damage in Human form but we know that isn't the case. This is what to me, indicates the Nova version is actually a separate power otherwise it's damage value would actually be on par with Nova Blast when used in Nova form and we'd end up with 2 virtually identical ST blasts in Nova, at least as far as damage is concerned.

I don't know exactly what the scalars are because the bins are just a huge mess I get lost in, but there is indeed a separate Nova version of EE and Dwarf version of Bolt. Bolt has no scalar, but EE does:

 

Ebon Eye base = 44.49

Ebon Eye scalar = 1.0
Ebon Eye damage = 44.49

 

Nova Ebon Eye base = 66.7323
Nova Ebon Eye scalar = 1.16

Nova Ebon Eye damage = 77.41

[chi1701]

4 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

Which dev?

Much of the data was copied over from old Paragon. We appreciate anybody that can spare time to help update the wiki. Gm Kal

[Hopestar]

Just now, chi1701 said:

Much of the data was copied over from old Paragon. We appreciate anybody that can spare time to help update the wiki. Gm Kal

That isn't the updating that was in mind, that was only destructive. Unless you can update it with true values you can prove are correct, don't update values already there.

[chi1701]

3 minutes ago, Hopestar said:

That isn't the updating that was in mind, that was only destructive. Unless you can update it with true values you can prove are correct, don't update values already there.

Updated values based on individual wiki pages

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Peacebringer

 

Have ranged and melee as same as what has been updated. 

[dtj714]

6 minutes ago, chi1701 said:

Much of the data was copied over from old Paragon. We appreciate anybody that can spare time to help update the wiki. Gm Kal

GM /= Dev.  If a dev (short for “developer”, i.e., someone with access to the game’s code) says something specific should be updated, then we can assume it’s because the dev knows the information is wrong. 
 

Kal was basically just saying the information should be correct.  He wasn’t saying it was wrong. Again, please put it back unless you have some objective proof it was wrong. 

[Doomrider]

9 minutes ago, chi1701 said:

Updated values based on individual wiki pages

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Peacebringer

 

Have ranged and melee as same as what has been updated. 

Take a look at this from the Issue 13 patch notes. This was when Kheld's damage scalers were adjusted from what they were originally to what they are currently. Subsequently, the damage scaler for Dwarf form that you deleted from the wiki was buffed at the same time from .85 to 1.0.

[chi1701]

27 minutes ago, chi1701 said:

If that was true, why did dev ask for it to be updated? 

Been trying to get some info from them for hours on discord

[chi1701]

4 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

Take a look at this from the Issue 13 patch notes. This was when Kheld's damage scalers were adjusted from what they were originally to what they are currently. Subsequently, the damage scaler for Dwarf form that you deleted from the wiki was buffed at the same time from .85 to 1.0.

Ill update when I can all 3 pages

Edited October 22, 2020 by chi1701

[Doomrider]

2 minutes ago, chi1701 said:

Ill update when I can all 3 pages

Please also revert the changes you made in regards to the Nova form scalar. If you want to do something productive, add both the Nova and Dwarf scalars to the Peacebringer and Warshade pages under "Modifiers (at level 50)".

Edited October 22, 2020 by Doomrider

[chi1701]

1 minute ago, Doomrider said:

Please also revert the changes you made in regards to the Nova form scalar. If you want to do something productive, add both the Nova and Dwarf scalars to the Peacebringer and Warshade pages under "Modifiers (at level 50)".

That's what I plan to do when I have access to my pc

[dtj714]

18 minutes ago, chi1701 said:

Updated values based on individual wiki pages

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Peacebringer

 

Have ranged and melee as same as what has been updated. 

You’re doubling down on screwing up. Look further down on the PB (or WS) page. It specifically references damage scales with a link to the table you edited. See also under “Historical” where it references a damage adjustment in Issue 13. Go to the patch notes for Issue 13. It specifically says dwarf scale changed from .85 to 1.0, along with adjustments to the human scales. It doesn’t say nova scale is 1.2, but I challenge you to find one, one other person who agrees it’s .8.
 

What you’re seeing under “mods” on the individual pages are the human scales only.  Again, it’s common knowledge that the forms have different scales.  So, I’m asking you, again, to change it back, since you have no proof that it was wrong.

 

 

[chi1701]

9 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

You’re doubling down on screwing up. Look further down on the PB (or WS) page. It specifically references damage scales with a link to the table you edited. See also under “Historical” where it references a damage adjustment in Issue 13. Go to the patch notes for Issue 13. It specifically says dwarf scale changed from .85 to 1.0, along with adjustments to the human scales. It doesn’t say nova scale is 1.2, but I challenge you to find one, one other person who agrees it’s .8.
 

What you’re seeing under “mods” on the individual pages are the human scales only.  Again, it’s common knowledge that the forms have different scales.  So, I’m asking you, again, to change it back, since you have no proof that it was wrong.

 

 

Going to change dwarf form as per issue changes, can you provide same proof with nova? 

[dtj714]

1 minute ago, chi1701 said:

Going to change dwarf form as per issue changes, can you provide same proof with nova? 

Can you provide proof that 1.2 was wrong?  That’s what both the archive and HC wikis said for a long time, and everybody else here seems to agree that is correct. You’re the one changing the status quo, so the onus is on you to prove the change is appropriate, not the other way around. 

[thunderforce]

@Michiyoand I have looked into this.

 

The inobvious bit is that Nova Glinting Eye isn't the same power as Glinting Eye, and that the right-click Info doesn't really respect this. (Most obviously, you can get it to tell you the Recharge Time is 5 seconds even in human form). Nova Glinting Eye's damage scale is 1.16, where Glinting Eye's is 1.

 

Nova Glinting Eye does just over 2.5x the damage to a like minion. (1.16 * 1.2 * 1.45) / 0.8 is 2.523; ie, including the squidform's 45% damage buff, the damage it actually does is what you would expect if squidform had a ranged base damage of 1.2.

 

I have restored this information to the Wiki.

[chi1701]

58 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

@Michiyoand I have looked into this.

 

The inobvious bit is that Nova Glinting Eye isn't the same power as Glinting Eye, and that the right-click Info doesn't really respect this. (Most obviously, you can get it to tell you the Recharge Time is 5 seconds even in human form). Nova Glinting Eye's damage scale is 1.16, where Glinting Eye's is 1.

 

Nova Glinting Eye does just over 2.5x the damage to a like minion. (1.16 * 1.2 * 1.45) / 0.8 is 2.523; ie, including the squidform's 45% damage buff, the damage it actually does is what you would expect if squidform had a ranged base damage of 1.2.

 

I have restored this information to the Wiki.

If powers aren't the same, how can I use it in human form? I'm assuming the power changes? 

Edited October 22, 2020 by chi1701

[thunderforce]

11 minutes ago, chi1701 said:

If powers aren't the same, how can I use it in human form? I'm assuming the power changes? 

There's two powers - one for humans, one for squid - in terms of the stats like recharge and damage.

[dtj714]

2 hours ago, thunderforce said:

There's two powers - one for humans, one for squid - in terms of the stats like recharge and damage.

But there’s only one tooltip - the one for nova. Since it isn’t inherently a nova power, the tooltip should reflect the human values, which obviously would then change when the nova damage scale is applied, IMHO. 

[thunderforce]

43 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

But there’s only one tooltip - the one for nova. Since it isn’t inherently a nova power, the tooltip should reflect the human values, which obviously would then change when the nova damage scale is applied, IMHO. 

I'm not really sure what you're saying here, TBH - obviously the interface is not great but that seems a separate question to what Kheldian base damage is, which is all I'm trying to address.

[dtj714]

8 hours ago, thunderforce said:

I'm not really sure what you're saying here, TBH - obviously the interface is not great but that seems a separate question to what Kheldian base damage is, which is all I'm trying to address.

I’m saying the tooltip for the power “nova ebon/glinting eye” should not be used for the “basic” (i.e., human) version of the power. It gives the false impression that it’s more powerful than it is, which caused my confusion and concern that the (human) eye attacks seemed superior to the blast attacks. It may be a ‘separate” issue, but it’s no less valid. 
 

Thanks much for restoring the form damage scales to the wiki though. 👍😀

Edited October 23, 2020 by dtj714

[thunderforce]

1 hour ago, dtj714 said:

I’m saying the tooltip for the power “nova ebon/glinting eye” should not be used for the “basic” (i.e., human) version of the power. It gives the false impression that it’s more powerful than it is, which caused my confusion and concern that the (human) eye attacks seemed superior to the blast attacks. It may be a ‘separate” issue, but it’s no less valid. 

I'm not sure that's a controversial point (and I think I mistakenly took it as a direct response to what I wrote).

[chi1701]

28 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

I'm not sure that's a controversial point (and I think I mistakenly took it as a direct response to what I wrote).

I drag the Ebon eye from the Nova tray into a dedicated tray so when I use macro to activate nova, it changes the bottom to to tray x, but same tray, I can still use the same ebon eye that I dragged down from nova tray in human form. Impression then, is its the same power but the stats changes.

 

Someone did change the wiki before i did, does anyone know how to add dwarf and nova modifier to these pages?

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Warshade

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Peacebringer

[thunderforce]

1 minute ago, chi1701 said:

I drag the Ebon eye from the Nova tray into a dedicated tray so when I use macro to activate nova, it changes the bottom to to tray x, but same tray, I can still use the same ebon eye that I dragged down from nova tray in human form. Impression then, is its the same power but the stats changes.

That's the impression (imperfectly) given to the user, but what I am saying above is that the game's internal data files list two separate powers.

Those Wiki pages use a standard template. I added some plaintext about this, but on reflection, something might be done in the infobox; I have done it.

[dtj714]

5 hours ago, thunderforce said:

That's the impression (imperfectly) given to the user, but what I am saying above is that the game's internal data files list two separate powers.

Those Wiki pages use a standard template. I added some plaintext about this, but on reflection, something might be done in the infobox; I have done it.

Since the game is actually swapping out the power when shifting into nova, can the correct tooltip be assigned to each version (when examined from the trays at least)?  Of course there is only one power listed in the enhancement and powers screens, but again that’s the basic version, IMHO.

Edited October 23, 2020 by dtj714