Something to play towards or un-necessary forced time sink

[CrudeVileTerror]

Counterpoint:  Do we actually care if they appreciate it?

 

That's kind of part of the issue here.  Many of us are still operating on assumptions of what "worth" even is, as it's often baked in to people's core identity as a person/individual.

From my philosophy, the core foundation we should be building on is the understanding that is game is a luxury and a privilege.  I don't happen to feel that someone needs to appreciate imaginary digital goods.

Better, in my view, to appreciate the people who worked hard to create and deliver those imaginary digital goods.

And, broken record that I am, to really do that . . . we need to -hear- from those people.  We need to know why they're doing what they're doing.

 

The Homecoming Team have said on many occasions that they do what they do because they love this game.

Cool.

Awesome, even!

Many of us could certainly say we love this game too.

 

But where are they -really- coming from?

What does this game -really- mean to them?

How do they even -define- this game?

 

And then, what do we do when/if we finally get those answers?

What if we find their reasons and their plans to be totally anathema to our own visions?   Our own ideals?

Where do we go from there?

 

 

 

Of course, all of this isn't necessary.

 

We're each allowed to appreciate the game in our own way.

 

I'm just trying to articulate my side of this.  The one where I sorta "get" why people want to have to do imaginary digital work to get their imaginary digital goods, even though it costs them REAL time that could be used to get REAL, tangible benefits.  . . . but I can't be one of those people.   I've seen what goes in to making a game.  What goes in to manipulating players in to downward spirals of self-destruction which they're trained to accept as their own personal salvation.

I'm jaded in that regard.

And I do understand that people who want the grind aren't necessarily the same people I was professional tasked with parasitically feeding off of . . . but my own bias is at work, and I can't help but see reflections of those people when I see discussions like this crop up.

It gets under my skin and reminds me of a time in my life that I loathe.

 

So.

I'll do my best to respect your rights to having opinions, and to acknowledge my own biases and preconceptions having the power to taint my view of your perspectives . . . 

But I do want to also try to find the words to express these views of mine in such a way as to share them with all of you.  Maybe help you see what I have seen.

[Hero_of_Light]

4 minutes ago, AerialAssault said:

Maybe it's just me, but I never felt the same rush of excitement when unlocking a costume.

 

I didn't wait all those years for City of Heroes to come back just to run the same cape unlock missions again.

 

Everyone has their own preferred reward and to some it may be costumes.

 

To others it might be unlocking a new power set after hitting 50, and even others would love unlocking a new Aura after making 10 completely unique costumes on one character.

[Ruin Mage]

I'm going to have to say no, I don't really want a grind for costume pieces or anything. This is a private server of a dead game. A side game for some, or perhaps the day of hard grinding is a thing of the past for some others. I for one would rather be playing FFXIV or WoW or some other game for the hard grind. Don't get me wrong - earning things feels nice, but not every game needs it. I mean, there's badges you need to do a little bit of grinding for. Some take their time, and others don't. That's enough for me.

I for one don't particularly care to have things in a superhero game put behind a 100 kill bosses badge or whatever. If there is anything else that could be locked behind badges, sure maybe that's the key. Otherwise, keep the grind/unlock where it is at: At a bare minimum or in other MMOs.

6 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

Better, in my view, to appreciate the people who worked hard to create and deliver those imaginary digital goods.

And, broken record that I am, to really do that . . . we need to -hear- from those people.  We need to know why they're doing what they're doing.

 

The Homecoming Team have said on many occasions that they do what they do because they love this game.

Cool.

Awesome, even!

Many of us could certainly say we love this game too.

 

But where are they -really- coming from?

What does this game -really- mean to them?

How do they even -define- this game?

 

And then, what do we do when/if we finally get those answers?

What if we find their reasons and their plans to be totally anathema to our own visions?   Our own ideals?

Where do we go from there?

I have told myself time and time again to ignore this sort of shenanigans, but boy howdy does this tilt me off the face of the earth - we don't need anything like what you say. We don't need transparency, we don't need to be let in on anything. The fact they've told us their plans and where the money goes is plenty enough, and asking for more / asking to have a seat at the table is baffling. This is their server, not ours. End of story on that one.

[Hero_of_Light]

12 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

 

But I do want to also try to find the words to express these views of mine in such a way as to share them with all of you.  Maybe help you see what I have seen.

Maybe a little, but I'm a firm believer that like any tool, it can be used for the betterment, or harm.

 

If it leads to more players having fun and being in game instead of playing another game I think it's good, in balance.

 

I'm confused though: why wouldn't we want players to appreciate thier time in game and what they achieved?

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Hero_of_Light

[Hero_of_Light]

11 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

I'm going to have to say no, I don't really want a grind for costume pieces or anything. This is a private server of a dead game. A side game for some, or perhaps the day of hard grinding is a thing of the past for some others. I for one would rather be playing FFXIV or WoW or some other game for the hard grind. Don't get me wrong - earning things feels nice, but not every game needs it. I mean, there's badges you need to do a little bit of grinding for. Some take their time, and others don't. That's enough for me.

I for one don't particularly care to have things in a superhero game put behind a 100 kill bosses badge or whatever. If there is anything else that could be locked behind badges, sure maybe that's the key. Otherwise, keep the grind/unlock where it is at: At a bare minimum or in other MMOs.

To clarify: Would you rather this be the last hurrah and the game slowly lose what life was rebreathed into it?

 

The other games you mentioned are kept alive and probably draw people back to them in part by what you don't want here.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Hero_of_Light

[Ruin Mage]

I think it's a bit of an odd doomsaying to say that a lack of content to unlock/grind is going to cost this server its life.

It was not fun to grind badges to get a costume piece you needed to complete a costume.
It was not fun, especially as the AH prices got shittier, to try and work towards the Excalibur sword as another example.

This game is not particularly complex. There's not much meant to be grinded in the Homecoming version - badges and that's it. I would rather not see costume pieces or base pieces (which was a thing as well!) locked behind a badge or a story arc. This isn't that sort of game anymore, imho. I would rather see effort put behind creating new content in general and not creating gated content. I myself get my heap of grinding through Everquest, I do not need or desire a second game with similar or near enough grind.

Not every game needs to have a grind or unlocks, imho.

If there were to be a grind, I would rather it be put behind veteran levels. That is a solution I could get behind. I definitely wouldn't want the rewards to be costume pieces or base pieces. So that leaves a question of just what one would grind. To which my answer is: Nothing. The game doesn't need one 🙂

Edited November 8, 2020 by Shadeknight

[AerialAssault]

Can we stop with the doomerism? Please?

 

People stop playing for many, many reasons and there isn't one you could feasibly pin down as "the reason." I sincerely doubt adding in "Defeat 100 X for X costume" will cause a mass return of players.

 

 

[Hero_of_Light]

1 minute ago, Shadeknight said:

I think it's a bit of an odd doomsaying to say that a lack of content to unlock/grind is going to cost this server its life.

It was not fun to grind badges to get a costume piece you needed to complete a costume.
It was not fun, especially as the AH prices got shittier, to try and work towards the Excalibur sword as another example.

This game is not particularly complex. There's not much meant to be grinded in the Homecoming version - badges and that's it. I would rather not see costume pieces or base pieces (which was a thing as well!) locked behind a badge or a story arc. This isn't that sort of game anymore, imho. I would rather see effort put behind creating new content in general and not creating gated content. I myself get my heap of grinding through Everquest, I do not need or desire a second game with similar or near enough grind.

Not every game needs to have a grind or unlocks, imho.

So, CoH as a secondary game?

 

There's many people that want more from CoH though, and that would  probably bring/keep more players.

[Ruin Mage]

On second thought, there would be only one sort of grind tied to badges I'd be marginally okay with.

Where defeating specific NPCs unlock their NPC costume parts for use. Not even 100 of a mob group, but AVs/EBs/Heroes.

There, you have your grind. 

[Hero_of_Light]

2 minutes ago, AerialAssault said:

Can we stop with the doomerism? Please?

 

People stop playing for many, many reasons and there isn't one you could feasibly pin down as "the reason." I sincerely doubt adding in "Defeat 100 X for X costume" will cause a mass return of players.

 

 

Having more stuff to do wouldn't keep people engaged and inturn cause them to stay around longer?

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

For example, an idea I've been bouncing around that is entirely doable, but might not be feasible without solid support and interest would be to remove level gates from every Contact, and offer two or three methods to unlocking those Contacts.

1:  Reach the level that Contact is usually unlocked at, and they're unlocked as normal.

2:  Complete the missions from Contacts prior to that one which follow the same or similar storylines (ie:  Complete Contacts who have missions for The Skulls, and unlock Contacts for The Trolls.  Complete those Contacts, and unlock the Contacts for The Family, regardless of your level).

3:  Straight-up unlock a Contact by throwing enough Inf at them.

 

That's replacing one gate with other gates.  It seems that the question shouldn't be whether or not gates should exist, but which gates should exist, and in what manner they exist.

 

Gates have always existed, they always will.  The only way to remove all gates is to do just that, make every character fully kitted Incarnates at level 50 +3 on creation and give them full access to every bit of content, along with all of the tools necessary to do it (-Regen, -Res, high damage output, etc.).  I don't think I'd be playing that game.  I don't think many people would.  Part of the core experience in any RPG is growth, growth requires gates.  Story gates, leveling gates, progression gates, acquisition gates which make the experience meaningful and personal.  Without gates, it's just putting dolls on a shelf, and that won't hold interest indefinitely when the dolls come out of the costume creator fully complete.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Luminara
Misunderstood something.

[Ruin Mage]

3 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Having more stuff to do wouldn't keep people engaged and inturn cause them to stay around longer?

If a majority of the population was clamoring for more to do and not being content with the game and community being a thing, I might be inclined to agree with you.

If people weren't fickle creatures and didn't have other games to enjoy, I might be inclined to agree with you.

Populations decline for any number of reasons. This is a free private server of a game that died due to shut down in 2012. The game is an aged train wreck, and mentalities have shifted.

It is not harmful if people are playing other games. Unless something happens, HC will remain here. Like a rock that withstands the tides.

Having people around to do content is nice, but a grind will not suddenly shoot our numbers back up. The game has no real good grind to go for.

Edited November 8, 2020 by Shadeknight

[Hero_of_Light]

2 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

On second thought, there would be only one sort of grind tied to badges I'd be marginally okay with.

Where defeating specific NPCs unlock their NPC costume parts for use. Not even 100 of a mob group, but AVs/EBs/Heroes.

There, you have your grind. 

That would be a way to add more content without taking a lot of work and would give many players a little extra to play towards. 

 

Love the idea, thank you

[AerialAssault]

1 minute ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Having more stuff to do wouldn't keep people engaged and inturn cause them to stay around longer?

Yeah, more content would be good.

 

But you don't have to make that content a grind for the sake of, effectively, manipulating a player into playing longer. Other MMOs do this to justify the price of buying & subscription. Homecoming does not have those obligations.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to a costume unique to an AV or a new Story Arc being unlocked by defeating that AV or completing that Story Arc. But I see no reason to artificially inflate someone's playing time.

[Ruin Mage]

Contacts unlocked by badges would be cool too. I believe Viridian is a contact who works/worked like that.

But one needs to realize; Making quality content takes time, despite what other servers might lead you to believe.

[Hero_of_Light]

1 minute ago, Shadeknight said:

If a majority of the population was clamoring for more to do and not being content with the game and community being a thing, I might be inclined to agree with you.

If people weren't fickle creatures and didn't have other games to enjoy, I might be inclined to agree with you.

Populations decline for any number of reasons. This is a free private server of a game that died due to shut down in 2012. The game is an aged train wreck, and mentalities have shifted.

It is not harmful if people are playing other games. Unless something happens, HC will remain here. Like a rock that withstands the tides.

That's why I'm bringing it up. Fourms are always quieter than the game, and waiting until there's a ton of noise normally (or worse, even less noise)  means it's taken longer than it should

[Ruin Mage]

I mean, I don't particularly see a whole lot of clamor for MORE MORE MORE things to do in general. Even in game, people seem to be....doing just fine? I mean i27 is on the horizon. More badges to grind, 2 story arcs.

We're doing fine.

[jubakumbi]

I want more episodes of a lot of TV shows that will never get them, that's just life.

 

It's been shown that new content, define it however you like, is what brings in new, brings back old, and retains current players.

No MMO, even those made with huge development teams, have unlimited retention for this factor.

Thinking COH will have regular content of size and quality at this point, unless you personally have the VC to make it a reality, is just a nice day dream.

 

We have what we have, it will get some fan made stuff over time now and then, and hopefully generally survive...bit's lets be real, that's it.

Enjoy it for what it is, for as long as or as often has the mood strikes you.

[Moka]

City of Heroes is a very old game and unlike games like Warframe, World of Warcraft, and Final Fantasy XIV, it does not have much in the way of linear content to push you forward with the sense of 'constantly progressing'. It's instead a game that goes in a variety of directions, but not always forward. It's a true sandbox MMO where you generally have to make your own fun while waiting for updates. I highly recommend playing the Dev's Choice AEs if you get truly desperate for new content, as they're usually pretty good. 

 

The fun of City of Heroes is how many ways you can play it, so if you're someone who wants to play just one character, there's nothing wrong with that, but you might find more opportunities in alts and it'll feel like a completely different game. 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Moka

[Luminara]

56 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

If players start dropping, wouldn't that hurt HC with their attempt to do what they are trying to do with NCSoft?

 

Even if there's no profit potential, granting a license to operate servers can still be good business from their perspective.  It's free advertising, it's a group to whom they can market other products, and it's good will generated.  The real key is whether or not it's costing them anything.  As long as nothing is coming out of their pockets, any agreement is a win for them because they're guaranteed to get something out of it.

[Hero_of_Light]

5 minutes ago, AerialAssault said:

Yeah, more content would be good.

 

But you don't have to make that content a grind for the sake of, effectively, manipulating a player into playing longer. Other MMOs do this to justify the price of buying & subscription. Homecoming does not have those obligations.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to a costume unique to an AV or a new Story Arc being unlocked by defeating that AV or completing that Story Arc. But I see no reason to artificially inflate someone's playing time.

What would be artificially inflating someone's play time vs not for you?

 

I feel we differ on this.

 

For me it's having a costume behind 1000 kills vs a story arc where you work with a NPC through the whole arc until the end as it's dying it gives you it's helm and asks you to carry on in thier place.

 

 

[Moka]

Just now, Hero_of_Light said:

What would be artificially inflating someone's play time vs not for you?

 

I feel we differ on this.

 

For me it's having a costume behind 1000 kills vs a story arc where you work with a NPC through the whole arc until the end as it's dying it gives you it's helm and asks you to carry on in thier place.

 

 

What story arc is that?

[Hero_of_Light]

5 minutes ago, Moka said:

What story arc is that?

It's not one, but I think it would be awesome to have and is a good idea of some of what I would like to see 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Hero_of_Light

[Moka]

Just now, Hero_of_Light said:

It's not one, but I think it would be awesome to have.

It would be! Though I wouldn't mind if it were an account-unlock. But maybe that's just me.

[Hero_of_Light]

Just now, Moka said:

It would be! Though I wouldn't mind if it were an account-unlock. But maybe that's just me.

I'm down for account unlocks. Helps balance effort and reward.

 

Keeping the game from becoming to grindy while still having great moments and things to play towards.