Possible ways to help support classes

[UltraAlt]

6 hours ago, Alty said:

These are Defender tricks?! 🤔This kinda reads like rules for children --Stay in the back and play nice, also don't touch anything Melee hasn't said was okay for you to touch. All buffs/heals belong to Melee, do not use them without their permissions. 

 I don't think I've ever followed these rules and I've played a METRIC TON of 'support' ATs with and without Repeat Offenders. 

EDIT: The confused reactions are highly amusing -  There's different ways to play and being the alpha sponge can go to any AT.  Also buffing the AT with the most HP and protection first seems needless...but ya know, those Holy Trinity rules are hard to break for some. 

 

Yeah, well. Works for all support sets.

 

Is this Monkey?

Yeah, I was a Repeat Offender as well.

If you have a good group going then all support teams are great.

 

You know PUGs can be a mixed bag.

Playing with those that are  you are used to gaming with is very different than teaming with people that you haven't gamed with before that are joining with whatever level and preconceptions that they may have. Some may not understand what is going on and decide that they know better for whatever reason and sometimes try to talk big to show how tough or knowledgable they are. We all react to this in different ways. We can accept it. Learn from it. Disregard it. Simply leave. Use ignore.

 

This thread is old, so I think at the time I was replying someone that was getting killed a lot as a defender and that tricks that I posted do help keep you alive as a defender if you are having issues falling in battle frequently.

 

I labeled these as tricks and not rules. There is a difference for sure. Using a melee character as a meat shield is no different than using a wall as a shield. If you can use something to take the agro then you are playing smart and not being a child. 

if you are playing smart to avoid falling in battle, you are not behaving as a child.

Edited May 13, 2021 by UltraAlt

[UltraAlt]

5 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

 

 That's a "trying to survive trick because I'm in over my head trick". 

 

 

You know - you could post your own ideas instead of tearing apart what you don't like about what works for other people.

All these things work for me. They are all valid in game play.

 

If you don't understand how to break Line-of-sight to lose agro (move agro to your teammates) or how to fall back to string out enemies to make them easier to defeat, that's on you.

The tactics are valid.

 

If you want to face plant. Feel free. That's not the way I like to play.

[Alty]

31 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Yeah, well. Works for all support sets.

 

Is this Monkey?

Yeah, I was a Repeat Offender as well.

If you have a good group going then all support teams are great.

 

You know PUGs can be a mixed bag.

Playing with those that are  you are used to gaming with is very different than teaming with people that you haven't gamed with before that are joining with whatever level and preconceptions that they may have. Some may not understand what is going on and decide that they know better for whatever reason and sometimes try to talk big to show how tough or knowledgable they are. We all react to this in different ways. We can accept it. Learn from it. Disregard it. Simply leave. Use ignore.

 

This thread is old, so I think at the time I was replying someone that was getting killed a lot as a defender and that tricks that I posted do help keep you alive as a defender if you are having issues falling in battle frequently.

 

I labeled these as tricks and not rules. There is a difference for sure. Using a melee character as a meat shield is no different than using a wall as a shield. If you can use something to take the agro then you are playing smart and not being a child. 

if you are playing smart to avoid falling in battle, you are not behaving as a child.

 

Alty now, was Altoholic Monkey on the live forums, yes. 

I've been on more than just RO teams in my COH gaming life, plenty of PUGs now and in the past.   I am fully aware of the focus fire, follow the tank, heal/buff methods. Those tips read like rules for kids to me which is why I stated as such.   I wrote that 'tricks are kids' which means newbies to me, not that one is 'behaving or being like a child' Never attacking and only buffing will also probably keep you on your feet, but I do not know how much fun that will be.  

Just want to state (not particularly directed at the OP), EVERY AT is a support AT, focused of defeating enemies. 

....Also, leave Defenders alone (there, I've brought it back to the original topic 🙂) 

[Doomguide2005]

49 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

You know - you could post your own ideas instead of tearing apart what you don't like about what works for other people.

All these things work for me. They are all valid in game play.

 

If you don't understand how to break Line-of-sight to lose agro (move agro to your teammates) or how to fall back to string out enemies to make them easier to defeat, that's on you.

The tactics are valid.

 

If you want to face plant. Feel free. That's not the way I like to play.

     I'm sorry if my post came off that way.  It wasn't intended that way, sometimes the internet sucks because there's no visual cues.  I was perhaps guilty of reading your intent behind the post further than intended as well and over reacted.  I don't think any of those tactics are invalid especially if the team is zerging into repeated trouble.  My point was those tactics are not specific to being a support AT.  They apply to anyone, any AT trying to survive a harder fight.  MTeague apparently said it much better than I did or at least less offensively.  So again sorry.  

     As for my position on the thread topic I really don't see any real problem to solve.  Any issue mentioned in the thread is more about solo play (and perhaps experience playing the AT).  Support sets can solo but that isn't supposed to be their strength is it.  Hence the choice of calling them "support".  They work best with teammates to support.

    

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Alty said:

Never attacking and only buffing will also probably keep you on your feet, but I do not know how much fun that will be. 

 

I didn't say never to attack.

I said to target through the tank or a melee character. This will tend to keep the agro on them when you do attack. It helps blasters keep agro on the damage absorbers as well. Melee characters have built in agro drawing components that can overpower the agro of agro caused by damage alone.

 

I will state it again. The purpose was to help a player that was having issues because they were falling frequently in combat, and I was providing them with ways to help decrease or eliminate these defeats during combat.

 

2 hours ago, Alty said:

I've been on more than just RO teams in my COH gaming life, plenty of PUGs now and in the past.

 

I have been on more the just RO teams in the past as well.

I'm not sure of your intent in stating this.

 

So maybe I should say, I've been in other super groups as well as gaming with the RO teams and PUG teams. In addition, I have been in set teams that aren't all from the same supergroup but band to together on one night or another. I also used to attend Tanker Tuesdays. 

And again, I don't know what the point is of saying this or how it is related to a player that is having issues as a Defender being defeated more frequently than their team mates or giving them valid suggestion on how to mitigate them falling in combat.

2 hours ago, Alty said:

....Also, leave Defenders alone (there, I've brought it back to the original topic 🙂) 

 

/emote facepalm

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Support sets can solo but that isn't supposed to be their strength is it.  Hence the choice of calling them "support".  They work best with teammates to support.

 

They aren't called Support because they supposed to be team based.

City of Heroes was built on always running with a team.

They are support because they aren't primarily damage dealers. Instead, they are built primarily to mitigate in one form or another (be that, healing, holding, buffing, debuffing, shielding, immobilizing, slowing, etc.).

 

Solo game play components were added later as there are a good number of people that solo. Changes were made to all ATs in regards to soloing. All ATs should be able to solo at this point. There are ATs that solo better than others for obvious reasons. 

 

The fact that someone that can mez someone is less resistant to being mezed than a melee character is silly to me. Why is a melee character immune to a mental attack that hypnotizes them? I understand absorbing damage, but being held or immobilized? Just doesn't make sense to me. (It seems to be the only reason is that it is frustraing to the player playing a melee character and they rage out more about it than a non-melee player)

I could go into this more with stories of CoH PVP history, but that is not really want this thread is about, or what I'm replying about.

 

All Archetypes perform better when they work in synergy with a team than they do when solo.

Melee archetypes and blasters (and the like) are damage dealers.

Support archetypes are force multipliers.

[Alty]

10 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

I didn't say never to attack.

I said to target through the tank or a melee character. This will tend to keep the agro on them when you do attack. It helps blasters keep agro on the damage absorbers as well. Melee characters have built in agro drawing components that can overpower the agro of agro caused by damage alone.

 

I will state it again. The purpose was to help a player that was having issues because they were falling frequently in combat, and I was providing them with ways to help decrease or eliminate these defeats during combat.

 

 

I have been on more the just RO teams in the past as well.

I'm not sure of your intent in stating this.

 

So maybe I should say, I've been in other super groups as well as gaming with the RO teams and PUG teams. In addition, I have been in set teams that aren't all from the same supergroup but band to together on one night or another. I also used to attend Tanker Tuesdays. 

And again, I don't know what the point is of saying this or how it is related to a player that is having issues as a Defender being defeated more frequently than their team mates or giving them valid suggestion on how to mitigate them falling in combat.

 

/emote facepalm

 

Okay....

EDIT for clarification: 

 

Quite literally the next sentence I wrote after: 

Quote

"I've been on more than just RO teams in my COH gaming life, plenty of PUGs now and in the past." 

was: 

Quote

"I am fully aware of the focus fire, follow the tank, heal/buff methods." 

That was my intention..to support the statement following it. 

Above this line in my previous post: 
 

Quote

"....Also, leave Defenders alone (there, I've brought it back to the original topic 🙂) "

Was this... 
 

Quote

Just want to state (not particularly directed at the OP), EVERY AT is a support AT, focused of defeating enemies. 

The OP being the one I was responding too...if that wasn't clear.  Meaning the two final statements were not directed at you. 

Hopefully this makes things clear....if not, that's okay too. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Alty

[MsSmart]

On 5/13/2021 at 1:40 AM, UltraAlt said:

 

They aren't called Support because they supposed to be team based.

City of Heroes was built on always running with a team.

They are support because they aren't primarily damage dealers. Instead, they are built primarily to mitigate in one form or another (be that, healing, holding, buffing, debuffing, shielding, immobilizing, slowing, etc.).

 

Solo game play components were added later as there are a good number of people that solo. Changes were made to all ATs in regards to soloing. All ATs should be able to solo at this point. There are ATs that solo better than others for obvious reasons. 

 

The fact that someone that can mez someone is less resistant to being mezed than a melee character is silly to me. Why is a melee character immune to a mental attack that hypnotizes them? I understand absorbing damage, but being held or immobilized? Just doesn't make sense to me. (It seems to be the only reason is that it is frustraing to the player playing a melee character and they rage out more about it than a non-melee player)

I could go into this more with stories of CoH PVP history, but that is not really want this thread is about, or what I'm replying about.

 

All Archetypes perform better when they work in synergy with a team than they do when solo.

Melee archetypes and blasters (and the like) are damage dealers.

Support archetypes are force multipliers.

Thank you for your post!

Your observation on why would a controller for instance be totally helpless to a control attack, while a melee who is hard to injure is totally immune, does defies logic and I agree with your perception. Yet in a cookie cutter way, I suppose that it was simpler for the developers to just make the melee types the all together bastions of soaking of whatever comes regardless if it is damage or an effect. And treated the whole affair in a binary manner with subtle variations in the melee side, such as a tank's status protection is greater to a scraper for example. My largest issue with the status protection bit, is that it was mostly treated in a binary fashion. While I totally agree that "support" types do not have as much need for very strong status effect protections such as those afforded to melee, I do disagree with their total lack of status effect protections. Consider this, a pathetic LT mob has status protection while a controller/defender/etc. Has zero magnitude protection, this does not truly pass the good sense test. So I have advocated, in the past, for an innate or a means to give support some status effect protection, key word: Some.

The real discussion is how much? My Rad Tank gets 13,  My Invulnerability Brute gets 10,  My Ninjitsu Scraper 10 as well, so what makes sense for a support type? Obviously zero, is the wrong answer. I can observe that a scrapper who is not generally intended to be the big time taunt only has 3 less magnitude protection, so would a support who does area effect (think of a kin) would need protection because the nature of their power is asking for mob attention, would 3 less than a scraper make sense for a magnitude 7 status effect protection? but many other support types do not attract as much attention, but they do, life is not truly binary. Maybe instead of the 23% less than the Scraper gets from the tank, lets make it 46% which still leaves us at a MAG 7 protection! Or perhaps we go a bit in the arbitrary side and say only half of what a Scraper gets, that would be 5 magnitude protection.

 

The next real problem to tackle, is how you give say those 5 mag protection points to the support, for instance a storm defender's steamy mist would be an ideal candidate, it affects the character itself, but anyone else within the mist also benefits, think of how much that would indeed help stalkers with AV effects! While MAG 5 is not good enough versus AV affects, but it is against single minions, etc. Do remember that multiple status effects do stack, so if the support is dumb enough to get a large group of mobs interested in her, well she gets toasted.

 

Hugs

 

Sue

[The man who laughs]

On 4/19/2021 at 3:32 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

Looking at the suggestions in the OP it appears to me that you're trying to improve their ability to solo. I submit that that goes against the entire purpose and spirit of those ATs.

 

Look, Scrappers can solo quite well, and you'd expect them to. Tankers, Brutes, Controllers, even Blasters can solo ok given some work. But Defenders are "the AT specifically designed to buff and protect the team." I'd argue (and I am arguing) that it's literally against the entire purpose of the AT to improve their ability to solo.

Positron talks to this point in this post mortem interview (starts at 5:40):

 

[Alchemystic]

2 hours ago, The man who laughs said:

Positron talks to this point in this post mortem interview (starts at 5:40):

 

 

From the context, it seems these are changes Positron would make if he were to completely remake the game, which doesn't really fall within the scope of development for the small volunteer team we have working on the game right now.

 

It's also important to note that this interview was dated 2012, directly after the game's shutdown, and references the state of the MMO genre at the time. The speculations they make might vary when measured against today's MMO scene, or the various new models for multiplayer games that have seen a surge in popularity over the years.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Tyrannical

[The man who laughs]

25 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

From the context, it seems these are changes Positron would make if he were to completely remake the game for today's MMO scene, which doesn't really fall within the scope of development for the small volunteer we have working on the game right now.

Interesting take on the video. What do you mean by complete remake? What ATs do you think he meant? What changes did he intend to make?

 

The interview was conducted almost 10 years ago. It is possible he would have a different take in today's MMO setting.

 

 

 

[Alchemystic]

Well if you go back a few seconds before the timestamp you set for the video, he states "If the possibility existed to remake CoH/CoV"

 

The word remake is very important to the context here, these are changes that would be proposed for a new project, not an existing one.

 

As for what ATs he meant? It's a high possibility that he could mean all of them. It's not uncommon when looking at a revision to something like this that all materials are considered, not just a choice few. The Archetypes we have now might not appear in a potential remake, or the idea of archetypes in general might undergo radical alterations.

 

All we know is that what's inferred in this video has tenuous bearing on the CoH we play now.

[The man who laughs]

1 hour ago, Tyrannical said:

Well if you go back a few seconds before the timestamp you set for the video, he states "If the possibility existed to remake CoH/CoV"

 

The word remake is very important to the context here, these are changes that would be proposed for a new project, not an existing one.

 

As for what ATs he meant? It's a high possibility that he could mean all of them. It's not uncommon when looking at a revision to something like this that all materials are considered, not just a choice few. The Archetypes we have now might not appear in a potential remake, or the idea of archetypes in general might undergo radical alterations.

 

All we know is that what's inferred in this video has tenuous bearing on the CoH we play now.

The person asking the question definitely picked an interesting way of framing it.

Edited June 9, 2021 by The man who laughs