Is Savage Melee meh or is it me?

[Guest ProvRI]

When I first saw Savage Melee, I thought it seemed a great fit to finally give a Brute a serious go. Back in the day it just never clicked with me, and I ended up focusing pretty much solely across the Scrapper-Dominator-Controllor spectrum.

 

But I like the idea of a power set that both seemed designed for speed, but whose inherent stacking mechanic was built around it. All of it seemed like a great fit for the AT who has a built in need for speed.

 

I’ve got a SM/SR Brute at 38, and to the point so many others have made. Yeah. It feels like the power set is still in a development stage. Synergies are mostly there, but don’t feel well tuned. And the stack spenders’ utility just kind of isn’t. A single target hit with a DoT l, with the T based on stacks burned. And a PBAoE version of that where stacks define max radius.

 

End result is ‘enh’.

 

I ended up dropping the PBAoE version, and kept only the single target because of the -Def rebuff. And I’ll try to trigger it early in my rotation so as not to burn off stacks to try and build the max Blood Fury bonus.

 

My personal preference would be to toss the PBAoE and swap in a strong personal heal/panic button. And with the single target, drop the stacks for longer DoT, and instead fuel a -Regen debuff because -speed and ferocity-. And maybe buff the Blood Fury stacks a bit, so you want to have them, but if/when you burn them, it’s both tactical and valuable.

[Brutal Justice]

I wish I had enough time in game to run the numbers myself, instead I have much more time to lurk around on here.  Reading a post in the stalker forum I noticed blood stacks do not increase the DoT damage from the attacks.  If blood doesn’t increase the DoT portion I would wager fury, and any other source of +dam, also provides no increase.  I wouldn’t be shocked if even enhancements didn’t increase the DoT.  The set has to be balanced around the DoT mechanic.  If there is no way to increase the DoT, then as you lvl, enhance, and build fury you fall farther and farther behind every other set. 

 

Their numbers also showed the DoT was unaffected by criticals as well.  Hemorrhage actually looked like it is working properly, and as a result, has the potential to hit harder than assassin strike.  Working on a stalker at least, I think I have seen several other posts stating the damage was poor and they were skipping the power. 

 

If this is indeed what is happening with the DoT, then that is the cause for its poor performance.  If having unenhanceable DoT is by design, then the set would have to be far superior at lvl 1 and meh at lvl 32, or, mediocre at lvl 1 and poor at lvl 32.  Would anybody be able to confirm these suspicions about the DoT? 

 

 

[iBones]

I wish I had enough time in game to run the numbers myself, instead I have much more time to lurk around on here.  Reading a post in the stalker forum I noticed blood stacks do not increase the DoT damage from the attacks.  If blood doesn’t increase the DoT portion I would wager fury, and any other source of +dam, also provides no increase.  I wouldn’t be shocked if even enhancements didn’t increase the DoT.  The set has to be balanced around the DoT mechanic.  If there is no way to increase the DoT, then as you lvl, enhance, and build fury you fall farther and farther behind every other set. 

 

Their numbers also showed the DoT was unaffected by criticals as well.  Hemorrhage actually looked like it is working properly, and as a result, has the potential to hit harder than assassin strike.  Working on a stalker at least, I think I have seen several other posts stating the damage was poor and they were skipping the power. 

 

If this is indeed what is happening with the DoT, then that is the cause for its poor performance.  If having unenhanceable DoT is by design, then the set would have to be far superior at lvl 1 and meh at lvl 32, or, mediocre at lvl 1 and poor at lvl 32.  Would anybody be able to confirm these suspicions about the DoT?

 

Welp, I'm not sure why my tiny brain failed to acknowledge this as the issue, but after reading this explanation - this is exactly what is happening. I am willing to bet the set is balanced around the stacking DoT's and we are currently not receiving the increase. In addition to this incredibly valid reason for the set to be "meh", I still believe it is missing something else. Even with a ramp up in DoT, the applied -end mechanic isn't nearly enough to merit it a gimmick.

 

It really is a shame - my character concept was one of my favorite out of the 100's I have had over the years in CoH and the set, while visually simple, is very clean and unique. Maybe one day when im fat with Inf, I'll kit it out just to see what the upper end of the build looks like.

[Leogunner]

I wish I had enough time in game to run the numbers myself, instead I have much more time to lurk around on here.  Reading a post in the stalker forum I noticed blood stacks do not increase the DoT damage from the attacks.  If blood doesn’t increase the DoT portion I would wager fury, and any other source of +dam, also provides no increase.  I wouldn’t be shocked if even enhancements didn’t increase the DoT.  The set has to be balanced around the DoT mechanic.  If there is no way to increase the DoT, then as you lvl, enhance, and build fury you fall farther and farther behind every other set. 

 

Their numbers also showed the DoT was unaffected by criticals as well.  Hemorrhage actually looked like it is working properly, and as a result, has the potential to hit harder than assassin strike.  Working on a stalker at least, I think I have seen several other posts stating the damage was poor and they were skipping the power. 

 

If this is indeed what is happening with the DoT, then that is the cause for its poor performance.  If having unenhanceable DoT is by design, then the set would have to be far superior at lvl 1 and meh at lvl 32, or, mediocre at lvl 1 and poor at lvl 32.  Would anybody be able to confirm these suspicions about the DoT?

 

DANG IT! I ****ING KNEW IT!

 

Just doing basic testing, I noticed the number of DoTs didn't really change.  I was noticing a whopping 1 extra DoT which could have just been me miscounting to 4 lol

 

Even at max stacks, the DoTs always were random (could be 2 DoTs, could be 4, could be 0).  I want to say I saw an increase in the damage of Hemorrage's DoTs at max stacks but it could have also been the buff from Blood Thirst or maybe even fury.  I did not test how much increase enhancing did nor did I really go into testing how much fury increased the damage because I was so focused on how long/many DoTs occurred.

 

Frankly, I don't see why it would have been overlooked for damage to affect the DoTs because other sets have DoTs and those are affected by +dmg (right?).  Perhaps a complication or alternative implementation to this set's DoTs occurred as they tried to create a set whose DoTs increased in duration/damage depending on a buff the caster has (blood stacks).  Now I'm genuinely curious what is actually going on with this set...

[Erratic1]

It is easy enough to test the impact of +Damage on DoTs by using the different stances In Bio Armor. Having a Savage/Bio Scrapper I did so. The headachy part was finding repeated instance of opponents of the same type and level to test on. Long and short, the different stances, which apply no damage bonus (Efficient), apply a damage bonus (Offensive), and apply a negative bonus (Defensive) changed the value of the DoTs I saw just now in testing. Moreover, popping a Focused Rage also changed the value of the DoT.

 

The DoT in question was the one applied by Rending Flurry as used at five stacks of Blood Frenzy, noted as "Rending Flurry Large" in the combat log.

 

I will also note that if you monitor your Damage Bonus you will see that as you build stacks of Blood Frenzy there is no change in the value of the Damage Bonus. The description at Paragonwiki and in Pine that, "Each stack of this buff grants a small damage buff and endurance cost discount," does not seem to hold true. Instead you get benefit on your spenders and only if you use them when at max stacks (the difference between "Rending Flurry Normal" and "Rending Flurry Large" in the log).

 

Another option for testing the impact of +Damge would be to use a Savage/Shield build making use of Against All Odds, which would have the benefit that the +Damage would fluctuate according to how many opponents you had standing at any given time. Over the course one would expect the value to decline with the damage bonus as opponents are defeated. I am not particularly inclined to start another character for such purposes, but a few DFBs and DiBs should get someone to the point of having Against All Odds by which to do some testing.

 

 

[Rumors]

I heard there was a topic about Savage Melee over in the Brute forum talking about it underperforming.  So, thought I'd swing by and share my experiences with the set.  For reference, I play a Savage/Regen Scrapper, who's level 50, moderately expensive IO build (mostly no purples, PvPs, ATOs, etc.  Mostly), and has some Incarnate powers.

 

First off, I'll say the set does feel unfinished.  Both visual/audio (mainly on later powers) and a bit mechanically. 

 

Regardless, I had a blast with him the whole ride and still do.

 

Low levels I did feel kind of vulnerable between no CC and low level Regen being... low level Regen.  However, endurance for me was ridiculous.  Like... I could pretend the blue bar didn't exist until about the 20s.  The recharge on the set allows for a complete attack chain by filling with Shred.  (Savage > Maim > Savage > Vicious > Savage > Shred > repeat if memory serves right.)  Consuming my stacks and going into Exhausted was something to consider carefully, not something you'd expect from a set called Savage Melee.  Fortunately, Blood Thirst as is recovers from that, meaning it gives you different options.  You can, for example, build up stacks, burn them, and then get them back immediately to finish the fight.  Or you can go normal Build Up route with it and use it as an opener to alpha strike a mob.

 

Mid-level endurance was pretty manageable by just popping blues every few fights.  Granted, I bought both Miracle + Recovery and Performance Shifter procs early on thanks to merits and a little market play.

 

Later levels... the set feels like an AoE/ST hybrid.  I'm playing at +2/3 (or basically +1/3 due to the level shift).  I can easily do higher in both regards, but this is efficient enough for me right now.  Without hitting Blood Thirst, I can throw a Fireball, chase it with Savage Leap (Leap's AoE is pretty big), and then Rending Flurry and that'll clean up most of the chaff.  After that, it's find the biggest, baddest guy in the group and wreck him with my single target chain while tossing AoEs as they come back to finish the rest of 'em off.  Most of the time, by the time the boss drops, everything else is dead too.

 

With Hasten up, my strongest ST chain appears to be Vicious > Maiming > Savage, although I've not run the numbers.  Savage > Maiming > Savage > Vicious > repeat feels better to use though.

 

On powers, I dropped both Shred and Hemmorage when I did a level 33ish respec.  The animation time on Shred is long and it's very narrow.  It doesn't really do anything special enough to keep around, IMO.  Rending and Leap, combined with an APP TAoE is plenty of AoE damage.  Hemmorage feels like it'd probably be useful for AV/GM soloing and that sort of thing, but in a team setting it's hard to take full advantage of the DoT.  The DoT IS juicy, but even then I have to wonder if going into Exhausted will cost you DPS long term either way due to the Recharge loss.

 

Speaking of...  at the point I'm at, Exhausted doesn't bother me much.  The only times I want to avoid it is when I'm low on endurance from sapping or me just hitting about 6 groups in a row without stopping.  I can still run my basic ST chain with very little interruption during the Exhausted crash, unless Hasten is down as well, in which case I can fill the pause with an AoE move.  IOs pretty much negate the penalties from Exhausted, so you can just burn a full stack on Rending Fury, Blood Thirst, and do it again a few seconds later while AoE slaughtering stuff. 

 

Endurance will start to dip some if I go super ham on AoEs while Exhausted.  But otherwise... I probably have too much Recovery slotted >.>

 

ST damage does feel a little lower than some other sets.  But, I've not run numbers, so it could be perception issues, and it also might be because of the sheer amount of Lethal resistance in the game.  And it could also be that the numbers might just be smaller.  Like... I could probably run my ST chain and a half in the time it takes, say, Broadsword to use 3-4 attacks.

 

 

If you're curious, here's my build if you wanna see what I did.  It's not an amazing build, I did cheat and take one Panacea set, and I probably have too many survival uniques/procs and not enough defense to justify having bothered with Weave.  I imagine it has a lot of room for improvement, but it still works pretty well.  Granted, I have no idea how this would translate to Stalkers, Brutes, or Tankers.  The way I did things might not be possible or just suck on them so... grain of salt.

 

 

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962

http://www.cohplanner.com/

 

Click this DataLink to open the build!

 

Sawyer Teral WIP: Level 50 Natural Scrapper

Primary Power Set: Savage Melee

Secondary Power Set: Regeneration

Power Pool: Speed

Power Pool: Leaping

Power Pool: Fighting

Ancillary Pool: Blaze Mastery

 

Hero Profile:

Level 1: Maiming Slash -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg(A), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), CrsImp-Dmg/Rchg(3), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), CrsImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5)

Level 1: Fast Healing -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-Heal(7), Pnc-Heal/+End(15), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(17)

Level 2: Savage Strike -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg(7), CrsImp-Dmg/Rchg(9), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), CrsImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11)

Level 4: Reconstruction -- NmnCnv-EndRdx/Rchg(A), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(23), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(23), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(25)

Level 6: Quick Recovery -- EffAdp-EndMod(A), EffAdp-EndMod/Rchg(40), EffAdp-EndMod/EndRdx(40), EffAdp-EndMod/Acc(40)

Level 8: Vicious Slash -- CrsImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(11), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg(13), CrsImp-Dmg/Rchg(13), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15)

Level 10: Dull Pain -- NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(A), NmnCnv-EndRdx/Rchg(27), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(27), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(29), NmnCnv-Heal(29)

Level 12: Blood Thirst -- AdjTrg-Rchg(A), AdjTrg-ToHit/Rchg(42), AdjTrg-EndRdx/Rchg(42), AdjTrg-ToHit(50)

Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36)

Level 16: Integration -- Mrc-Heal(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(17), Mrc-Heal/EndRdx(34), Mrc-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(36)

Level 18: Rending Flurry -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(19), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(21), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21)

Level 20: Resilience -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(37), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(37), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(37)

Level 22: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(36), Ksm-ToHit+(43), Ksm-Def/EndRdx(46), Ksm-Def/Rchg(45)

Level 24: Super Speed -- Clr-RunSpd(A)

Level 26: Boxing -- Empty(A)

Level 28: Instant Healing -- NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(A), NmnCnv-EndRdx/Rchg(31), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(31), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(31), NmnCnv-Heal(34)

Level 30: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(39), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(39), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(39)

Level 32: Savage Leap -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(33), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(33), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34)

Level 35: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(45), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(45)

Level 38: Moment of Glory -- Rct-ResDam%(A), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(43), Rct-Def/Rchg(43)

Level 41: Ring of Fire -- Empty(A)

Level 44: Fire Blast -- Dvs-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Dvs-Acc/Dmg(46), Dvs-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), Dvs-Hold%(50)

Level 47: Fire Ball -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg(A), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), PstBls-Dmg/Rchg(48), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(48), PstBls-Dmg/Rng(50)

Level 49: Confront -- Taunt-I(A)

Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Critical Hit

Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)

Level 1: Sprint -- UnbLea-Stlth(A)

Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)

Level 4: Ninja Run

Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)

Level 2: Health -- RgnTss-Regen+(A), Prv-Absorb%(25), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(42)

Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)

Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)

Level 1: Blood Frenzy

Level 0: Portal Jockey

Level 0: Task Force Commander

Level 0: The Atlas Medallion

Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve

Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon

------------

 

 

 

 

[iBones]

I wish I had enough time in game to run the numbers myself, instead I have much more time to lurk around on here.  Reading a post in the stalker forum I noticed blood stacks do not increase the DoT damage from the attacks.  If blood doesn’t increase the DoT portion I would wager fury, and any other source of +dam, also provides no increase.  I wouldn’t be shocked if even enhancements didn’t increase the DoT.  The set has to be balanced around the DoT mechanic.  If there is no way to increase the DoT, then as you lvl, enhance, and build fury you fall farther and farther behind every other set. 

 

Their numbers also showed the DoT was unaffected by criticals as well.  Hemorrhage actually looked like it is working properly, and as a result, has the potential to hit harder than assassin strike.  Working on a stalker at least, I think I have seen several other posts stating the damage was poor and they were skipping the power. 

 

If this is indeed what is happening with the DoT, then that is the cause for its poor performance.  If having unenhanceable DoT is by design, then the set would have to be far superior at lvl 1 and meh at lvl 32, or, mediocre at lvl 1 and poor at lvl 32.  Would anybody be able to confirm these suspicions about the DoT?

 

DANG IT! I ****ING KNEW IT!

 

Just doing basic testing, I noticed the number of DoTs didn't really change.  I was noticing a whopping 1 extra DoT which could have just been me miscounting to 4 lol

 

Even at max stacks, the DoTs always were random (could be 2 DoTs, could be 4, could be 0).  I want to say I saw an increase in the damage of Hemorrage's DoTs at max stacks but it could have also been the buff from Blood Thirst or maybe even fury.  I did not test how much increase enhancing did nor did I really go into testing how much fury increased the damage because I was so focused on how long/many DoTs occurred.

 

Frankly, I don't see why it would have been overlooked for damage to affect the DoTs because other sets have DoTs and those are affected by +dmg (right?).  Perhaps a complication or alternative implementation to this set's DoTs occurred as they tried to create a set whose DoTs increased in duration/damage depending on a buff the caster has (blood stacks).  Now I'm genuinely curious what is actually going on with this set...

 

What is even more interesting is how this response lit both of our lightbulbs in regards to why the set feels like a poor representation of what could be. Hah. The time spent leveling my Savage toon was worth now knowing just how simple the solution actually is. Yeesh

[pyrocide]

I guess I am in the minority, but I LOVE Savage Melee as a primary for /fa.

 

I will admit that I have not tried a farm yet, but am 51 and am loving it for everything I have used him in, itrials, tf/sf, door missions, paper teams, etc.