Is Savage Melee meh or is it me?

[Leogunner]

I've been having quite a time with this Brute and when I say that, I mean he's been a hassle to deal with...moreso than my Brutes in the past.

 

Is it just me or is Savage Melee very meh?  Considering the powerset's mechanic, I run out of endurance pretty quickly and it's only gotten slightly better as I've gotten more slot opportunities but up to the current level (lvl 30), there's been ups and downs and now I'm on a downturn because the damage output just hasn't gotten there.  The other side might be the secondary I picked with it, Electric Armor.  It's done me no favors and was a real drag until 28 when I got the heal.  It also eats up nearly all my Endurance despite the little discount I get from the primary.  I'm going to respec him soon to get rid of the old IOs I have on him to slot new stuff but just wanted to hear the consensus of the set.  Here's a quick screenie of the build:

 

 

NOTE: the last enhancement on Rending Flurry is Acc/End, and Engergize is slotted Heal, Heal/Rech, Absorb proc because I got the recipe as a drop recently.

 

I've run Electric Armor before and it is a bit of a drag until you get the heal and drain but Savage Melee just doesn't have the tools, it seems, to smooth out the early game.  Something like the swords have +def to give you more layered mitigation, dark melee has a heal/-ToHit, claws or martial arts has knockdown and/or stuns, I even find electric melee can eventually drain a target's endurance to slow their damage down...Savage only has the 1 chance of knockdown and Hemorrhage seems quite underwhelming at moderate fury.  What say you?

[subbacultchas]

It's meh. I've tried variations across a few AT's, just didn't care much for it.

 

But it does look neat.

[Leogunner]

Okay, so there's 1 person in agreement.

 

While I can somewhat get over the lack of damage, I'm still wondering if maybe the skills are bugged.  The base DoT effect seems to be 0-4 DoTs randomly with Hemorrhage doing 5 DoTs.  With max blood frenzy, Hemorrhage does 6 DoTs and adds about 10ish damage (scaled to level 30) to each DoT and exhausts you.

 

I want to say this set needs more than this.  While max blood frenzy does grant 20% recharge and like 23% END discount, the exhaust mechanic takes away from the overall modest effect.  They could probably stand to do one or a few things to add to the set:

 

* Remove or reduce the exhaustion phase.  It's currently like 12 seconds.  Why not shorten it(4 seconds?)  so you can actually use those skills that consume blood frenzy at their peak?

* Increase the END discount per blood stack.  Currently is 5% with a max of 23%.  How about 8% per and maximum of 40% discount?

* Hemorrhage needs some CC.  A knockup looks perfect.  Have it be a chance of knockup and a 100% chance when at max blood frenzy.

* Can the rest of the attacks have an improved variation with higher stacks (the attacks that don't consume blood frenzy)?  Like increase the amount of DoTs to 100% max so rather than randomly being 0-4 DoTs, it'll always be 4 DoTs when at max blood frenzy.

* How about while bleeding (suffering DoTs from these attacks) resistance to lethal damage is reduced so stacking DoTs gets more effective and the faster attacks are more useful.

* Vicious Slash needs 100% knockdown.

* Hemorrhage needs better effects.  Using it at max basically amounts to adding 2 DoTs...

 

 

I think adding knockup to Hemorrhage, 100% knockdown on Vicious Slash and scale the DoTs with blood frenzy better would even out the set a lot.  Would like a ToHit bonus when at max blood stacks too to help the whole "efficiency" angle the set seems to be targetting but that's probably asking too much.

 

Something else I noticed, Blood Thirst lasts 15 seconds but only buffs ToHit by 10% and damage by 33%, adds enough blood frenzy stacks to get you to max (doesn't refresh old stacks) and removes the exhaustion debuff if you have it.  Compared to Build up lasting 10 seconds and buffing ToHit by 20% and damage by 80%, I think Blood Thirst could also be improved.  Maybe not reduce or remove the exhaustion duration but increase the duration of Blood Thirst to 20 seconds and add the effect that makes you immune to exhaustion for its duration.

 

[Erratic1]

I am quite satisfied with how it works on my Savage Melee/Bio Armor scrapper. Not sure why the Brute experience would be so poor.

 

 

If the individual hits are smaller than with other powersets, they come noticably faster than with other powersets. I am not experiencing any lack of capability in putting opponents down timewise.

 

[Leogunner]

I am quite satisfied with how it works on my Savage Melee/Bio Armor scrapper. Not sure why the Brute experience would be so poor.

 

 

If the individual hits are smaller than with other powersets, they come noticably faster than with other powersets. I am not experiencing any lack of capability in putting opponents down timewise.

 

It's probably that Bio Armor is rather overtuned.  I'm playing Bio on my Stalker and he's comparatively much easier to run due to Efficient Adaptation mode and Boundless Energy (Stalker version of Inexhaustible) making END and HP management less of a hassle.  It's AoE heal is rather broken for how little slotting it needs too.

 

The lack of capability of the primary set comes with it's lack of mitigation and lack of punch.  Like I said, sets like Martial Arts or Claws has quite a bit of CC and Claws even has range.  I can actually drain a foe's END with a little slotting of Electric Melee meaning bulky bosses tend to end up limp and helpless not to mention its AoE and CC.  Like I said, Savage only has Viscious Slash and it's only a chance of knockdown.  I haven't gotten Savage Leap yet so maybe the damage is made up there but still no mitigation. 

 

It's also possible that powers are bugged on Brute.  Bleeds are random and I haven't done any sort of testing or anything but I'm betting that with Critical Hits, the amount of extra damage might be calculated using the max possible damage value rather than a random roll.  It's also possible that Savage Melee is more of a Rogue type set (just without the cool tools) and unfit for the more Center Stage style that Tanker or Brute need.

 

I'd like to hear more: statements of what the set does well, the kinds of missions you take, criticisms or expectations or perhaps dialog on some of the ideas in my previous post.

 

EDIT: Also, no the attacks aren't faster than Claws.  I haven't looked at the activations but I'm willing to bet Savage is slower than Dark, Claws and Street Justice.  And those sets also have more mitigation and punch.

 

EDIT2: Also also, I absolutely am annoyed the the speed of Blood Thirst's activation.  It has to be THE slowest activating attack buff in a melee set for very little payoff.

[Erratic1]

I did not say the attacks were faster than ALL other powersets, I said than other powersets. I have a Rad/Fire Brute and I can assure you there is a day/night difference in how fast attacks occur. Upside of fast attacks is that if you miss on one, another attack is coming soon. Its consistent damage vs slower attacks where if you miss. . .its a while before the next one goes off (though on balance, big slow hits give a ponderous, inexorable feel to dealing damage).

 

I am not sure it is fair to criticize the set for lack of controls when its perk is minor DoTs all over the place. Endurance savings via Blood Frenzy, bonus damage via DoTs and expenditure of Blood Frenzy. . .adding controls would seem to be overbalancing.

 

I find myself more often in Offensive or Defensive Adaptation than Efficient but some of that is influenced by the nature of the primary it is paired with. Another difference in experience comes down I suspect to the Fury mechanic. As a scrapper, my character starts at his max damage output whereas you need to work up to it. I told someone that it floats in the back of my head that SM/Bio might perform better on a Brute given you could sustain attacks/being attacked long enough to build up sufficient Fury. I have played and am playing a DM/Electric Brute (both my Brutes are at level 34) and I like it as an armor set quite a bit (particularly paired with Dark Melee). I can see its benefit to SM as it grants both a heal and endurance regain. Sadly it does not also boost damage output like Shield or Fire. Even so, a bit of perma-Hasten and slotting up Energize and Power Sink, and I suspect you will have a pretty decent solo character.

 

 

The question is what type of damage are you expecting Savage Melee to output. The following is from attacking a small group of +1/+2 Crey and Freakshow while in Efficient Adaptation.

 

2019-06-01 09:34:48 Your chat is now being logged.

2019-06-01 09:34:56 You activated the Savage Leap power.

2019-06-01 09:34:57 HIT Patrol Guard! Your Savage Leap power is autohit.

2019-06-01 09:34:57 You gain 2 stacks of Blood Frenzy!

2019-06-01 09:34:57 HIT Vigilant! Your Savage Leap AoE power had a 88.83% chance to hit, you rolled a 55.16.

2019-06-01 09:34:57 HIT Metal Smasher! Your Savage Leap AoE power had a 88.83% chance to hit, you rolled a 50.57.

2019-06-01 09:34:57 HIT Patrol Guard! Your Savage Leap AoE power had a 88.83% chance to hit, you rolled a 75.33.

2019-06-01 09:34:57 You slash at Metal Smasher with your Savage Leap AoE for 111.83 points of lethal damage!

2019-06-01 09:34:57 You slash at Patrol Guard with your Savage Leap AoE for 62.03 points of lethal damage!

2019-06-01 09:34:57 You slash at Vigilant with your Savage Leap AoE for 80.72 points of lethal damage!

2019-06-01 09:34:58 You activated the Vicious Slash power.

2019-06-01 09:34:58 Your Savage Leap AoE causes Patrol Guard to bleed for 5.36 points of Lethal damage.

2019-06-01 09:34:58 Your Savage Leap AoE causes Vigilant to bleed for 6.97 points of Lethal damage.

2019-06-01 09:34:58 Readying Vicious Slash.

2019-06-01 09:34:58 Patrol Guard HITS you! Brawl power had a 50.30% chance to hit and rolled a 6.78.

2019-06-01 09:34:58 Stunner Chief HITS you! Charged Bolts power had a 37.68% chance to hit and rolled a 11.74.

2019-06-01 09:34:58 Patrol Guard hits you for 35.62 points of smashing damage!

2019-06-01 09:34:58 Stunner Chief shocks you with his Charged Bolts for 88.73 points of energy damage!

2019-06-01 09:34:58 Stunner Chief shocks you with his Charged Bolts and drains some of your Endurance!

2019-06-01 09:34:58 HIT Patrol Guard! Your Vicious Slash power had a 80.17% chance to hit, you rolled a 34.89.

2019-06-01 09:34:58 You slash at Patrol Guard with your Vicious Slash for 117.23 points of lethal damage!

2019-06-01 09:34:58 You knocked Patrol Guard from their feet!

2019-06-01 09:34:58 You gain 2 stacks of Blood Frenzy!

2019-06-01 09:34:58 Juicer Freak MISSES! Lightning Bolt power had a 32.75% chance to hit, but rolled a 55.04.

2019-06-01 09:34:59 Your Savage Leap AoE causes Patrol Guard to bleed for 5.36 points of Lethal damage.

2019-06-01 09:34:59 Your Savage Leap AoE causes Vigilant to bleed for 6.97 points of Lethal damage.

 

Against a trio of +2 Crey in Offensive Adaptation:

 

2019-06-01 09:45:25 Your chat is now being logged.

2019-06-01 09:45:33 You activated the Savage Leap power.

2019-06-01 09:45:33 Readying Savage Leap.

2019-06-01 09:45:34 HIT Field Agent! Your Savage Leap power is autohit.

2019-06-01 09:45:34 You gain 3 stacks of Blood Frenzy!

2019-06-01 09:45:34 Your Offensive Adaptation hits for 8.77 points of Toxic damage!

2019-06-01 09:45:34 Your Offensive Adaptation hits for 8.77 points of Toxic damage!

2019-06-01 09:45:34 Your Offensive Adaptation hits for 35.11 points of Toxic damage!

2019-06-01 09:45:34 HIT Vigilant! Your Savage Leap AoE power had a 86.78% chance to hit, you rolled a 85.88.

2019-06-01 09:45:34 HIT Field Agent! Your Savage Leap AoE power had a 86.78% chance to hit, you rolled a 3.97.

2019-06-01 09:45:34 HIT Field Agent! Your Savage Leap AoE power had a 86.78% chance to hit, you rolled a 84.44.

2019-06-01 09:45:34 You slash at Field Agent with your Savage Leap AoE for 113.27 points of lethal damage!

2019-06-01 09:45:34 You slash at Vigilant with your Savage Leap AoE for 116.74 points of lethal damage!

2019-06-01 09:45:34 You slash at Field Agent with your Savage Leap AoE for 108.41 points of lethal damage!

2019-06-01 09:45:35 Savage Leap is still recharging.

2019-06-01 09:45:35 Your Savage Leap AoE causes Field Agent to bleed for 10.02 points of Lethal damage.

2019-06-01 09:45:35 Your Savage Leap AoE causes Field Agent to bleed for 9.59 points of Lethal damage.

2019-06-01 09:45:35 You activated the Shred power.

2019-06-01 09:45:35 Readying Shred.

2019-06-01 09:45:35 Field Agent HITS you! Adv Sub Machine Gun power had a 60.36% chance to hit and rolled a 50.68.

2019-06-01 09:45:35 Field Agent HITS you! Adv Sub Machine Gun power had a 60.36% chance to hit and rolled a 13.36.

2019-06-01 09:45:35 Field Agent shoots you with his Adv Sub Machine Gun for 11.2 points of lethal damage.

2019-06-01 09:45:35 Field Agent shoots you with his Adv Sub Machine Gun for 11.2 points of lethal damage.

2019-06-01 09:45:35 Field Agent shoots you with his Adv Sub Machine Gun for 10.85 points of lethal damage.

2019-06-01 09:45:35 Field Agent shoots you with his Adv Sub Machine Gun for 10.85 points of lethal damage.

2019-06-01 09:45:36 Shred missed!

2019-06-01 09:45:36 MISSED Vigilant!! Your Shred power had a 80.43% chance to hit, you rolled a 89.90.

2019-06-01 09:45:36 HIT Field Agent! Your Shred power had a 80.43% chance to hit, you rolled a 65.90.

2019-06-01 09:45:36 HIT Field Agent! Your Shred power had a 80.43% chance to hit, you rolled a 75.80.

2019-06-01 09:45:36 You gain 1 stack of Blood Frenzy!

2019-06-01 09:45:36 You slash at Field Agent with your Shred for 18.03 points of lethal damage and reduce their defense!

2019-06-01 09:45:36 Your Offensive Adaptation hits for 12.7 points of Toxic damage!

2019-06-01 09:45:36 You slash at Field Agent with your Shred for 18.03 points of lethal damage and reduce their defense!

2019-06-01 09:45:36 Your Offensive Adaptation hits for 12.7 points of Toxic damage!

2019-06-01 09:45:36 Field Agent shoots you with his Adv Sub Machine Gun for 11.2 points of lethal damage.

2019-06-01 09:45:36 Field Agent shoots you with his Adv Sub Machine Gun for 11.2 points of lethal damage.

2019-06-01 09:45:36 Your Savage Leap AoE causes Field Agent to bleed for 10.02 points of Lethal damage.

2019-06-01 09:45:36 You slash at Field Agent with your Shred for 18.03 points of lethal damage and reduce their defense!

2019-06-01 09:45:36 You slash at Field Agent with your Shred for 18.03 points of lethal damage and reduce their defense!

2019-06-01 09:45:36 Vigilant HITS you! Automatic Pistol power had a 54.87% chance to hit and rolled a 51.17.

2019-06-01 09:45:36 Vigilant shoots you for 32.47 points of damage!

2019-06-01 09:45:36 You slash at Field Agent with your Shred for 18.03 points of lethal damage and reduce their defense!

2019-06-01 09:45:36 You slash at Field Agent with your Shred for 18.03 points of lethal damage and reduce their defense!

2019-06-01 09:45:36 You slash at Field Agent with your Shred for 18.03 points of lethal damage and reduce their defense!

2019-06-01 09:45:36 You slash at Field Agent with your Shred for 18.03 points of lethal damage and reduce their defense!

2019-06-01 09:45:37 Your Savage Leap AoE causes Field Agent to bleed for 10.02 points of Lethal damage.

 

Maybe our damage expectation are different?

 

[Leogunner]

I did not say the attacks were faster than ALL other powersets, I said than other powersets. I have a Rad/Fire Brute and I can assure you there is a day/night difference in how fast attacks occur. Upside of fast attacks is that if you miss on one, another attack is coming soon. Its consistent damage vs slower attacks where if you miss. . .its a while before the next one goes off (though on balance, big slow hits give a ponderous, inexorable feel to dealing damage).

 

I was making a comparison to sets that are fast and have extra mitigation utility.  I'm trying to find why Savage doesn't have them.  That is why I made this thread, I'm trying to figure out what niche the set fits into (not talking about concept-wise) and how the set stands out.  I'm not here trying to shit on your heroes, I'm asking if the set can be improved lol

 

Also, I haven't played Rad melee but from looking at the set, it's gimmick seems to be spreading single target damage into multi-target damage.  That's probably why the attacks are balanced to be slower.  On comparison to Fire melee, another set whose gimmick is DoT and has no mitigation, is also one of the most offensive sets, deals fire typed damage and isn't slowed down.  Would you say Savage is on par with Fire melee in the DPS side?

 

I am not sure it is fair to criticize the set for lack of controls when its perk is minor DoTs all over the place. Endurance savings via Blood Frenzy, bonus damage via DoTs and expenditure of Blood Frenzy. . .adding controls would seem to be overbalancing.

 

Why not?  That was one of my initial observations of the set in that Blood Frenzy gives you minor endurance and recharge bonuses.  My observation comes from using a set that has no endurance management early on (Electric Armor) and has a need to reduce endurance costs.  I'd say take a look at the build I posted and tell me what is wrong.  I'm saying that even with Savage's Blood Frenzy discounting my endurance and stacking the 20% recharge bonus with the 20% recharge bonus of Lightning Reflexes, I still had management issues killing resistant foes without running out of END first and against larger sets of mobs, I wasn't killing before they chipped a chunk of my health off.  In many situations, expending blood frenzy felt harmful for lack of return and if you become exhausted, you are required to manage it either via Blood Thirst or just not utilize max blood stacks in the first place.  My criticism of that particular mechanic is, is it a feature you're meant to capitalize on (think Radiation Melee's contamination gimmick) or a limiting factor to balance a strong boon the set has (think Titan Weapons' momentum)?  Or is it neither?  Both?  Am I using the mechanic wrong?

 

I find myself more often in Offensive or Defensive Adaptation than Efficient but some of that is influenced by the nature of the primary it is paired with. Another difference in experience comes down I suspect to the Fury mechanic. As a scrapper, my character starts at his max damage output whereas you need to work up to it. I told someone that it floats in the back of my head that SM/Bio might perform better on a Brute given you could sustain attacks/being attacked long enough to build up sufficient Fury. I have played and am playing a DM/Electric Brute (both my Brutes are at level 34) and I like it as an armor set quite a bit (particularly paired with Dark Melee). I can see its benefit to SM as it grants both a heal and endurance regain. Sadly it does not also boost damage output like Shield or Fire. Even so, a bit of perma-Hasten and slotting up Energize and Power Sink, and I suspect you will have a pretty decent solo character.

 

That's the nature of the powerset system though (talking about how the character will eventually work out), but I'm specifically looking for tricks and tips for the set, it's areas of expertise, what to pair it with and what to not pair it with, or how to make the set better.  For example, Dark melee: it's niche is being mainly a damage type that isn't commonly resisted and doesn't have many AoEs but it can bolster your attack to a ridiculous degree via Soul Drain and it's single target damage is fast and effective.  Couple it with a defense set and the heal will make it easier when you take shots and paired with a resist set, Touch of Fear and the set's -ToHit can make you near untouchable to a few targets.

 

I'm here to state my experiences that the endurance discount of Savage is moderately small whose impact is more felt when you use up your blood frenzy rather than when you are rocking with max stacks.  The recharge bonus I could see being useful for clicky armor sets though...still doesn't make up for the fact that the exhaustion mechanic is bad and doesn't pay off for the effects you gain from using the skills.

 

 

The question is what type of damage are you expecting Savage Melee to output. The following is from attacking a small group of +1/+2 Crey and Freakshow while in Efficient Adaptation.

 

lol I'm not looking for a specific result.  I'm asking what sells this set.  Why would you pick this set instead of Claws?  What does this set do that other sets don't or not as well?  What tradeoffs does this set make to do what it does?

 

Maybe our damage expectation are different?

 

You tell me.  Do you feel the set does good damage?  How useful has the set's utility been to you?

 

As the title says, I've come into the thread with the experience that the set is meh. I had to shelve the guy because he's a drag to play and went back to playing my Elec/Bio Stalker.  In the back of my head, I have to wonder if Savage Leap is just so good that it makes the set that fun to play.  That's why I'm asking on the forums because just looking at it, Savage Leap looks pretty meh still.  The only boon so far that has shined through is the skill animations look nice.

 

Also, Bio armor is...just ridiculous lol.  It's one power alone (Boundless Energy) makes it so I can get away with no endurance slotting and shifting back into efficiency mode, I can practically never run out of endurance.  As a stalker, starting with Assassin's Strike in offensive mode, finishing my alpha strike then swapping to efficiency mode + DNA siphon...but Electric Melee is also rather ridiculous on Stalker...the most powerful version of the set across all melee.  So many tricks you can do with that set...

[Erratic1]

I did not say the attacks were faster than ALL other powersets, I said than other powersets. I have a Rad/Fire Brute and I can assure you there is a day/night difference in how fast attacks occur. Upside of fast attacks is that if you miss on one, another attack is coming soon. Its consistent damage vs slower attacks where if you miss. . .its a while before the next one goes off (though on balance, big slow hits give a ponderous, inexorable feel to dealing damage).

 

I was making a comparison to sets that are fast and have extra mitigation utility.  I'm trying to find why Savage doesn't have them.  That is why I made this thread, I'm trying to figure out what niche the set fits into (not talking about concept-wise) and how the set stands out.  I'm not here trying to shit on your heroes, I'm asking if the set can be improved lol

 

The real problem in saying what niche Savage Melee occupies is the difficulty in getting numbers at this point. Detailed info on Blood Frenzy suggests it grants 4% Recharge and 6% reduction in endurance costs to anything you do. But a mouseover of multiple stacks shows the Recharge at the same 4% and 51% reduction to endurance costs (which I can see no way of getting to with 5 stacks starting from 1 stack granting 6% as additively you'd expect 30% and muliplicatively  you'd expect 26.6%). I suppose if I don't mind lots of trips to the hospital and the experience debt that would need to be paid off  I could do some testing (though waiting to 50 might be more palatable).

 

Also, I haven't played Rad melee but from looking at the set, it's gimmick seems to be spreading single target damage into multi-target damage.  That's probably why the attacks are balanced to be slower.  On comparison to Fire melee, another set whose gimmick is DoT and has no mitigation, is also one of the most offensive sets, deals fire typed damage and isn't slowed down.  Would you say Savage is on par with Fire melee in the DPS side?

 

I believe a design goal is for Fire, on any AT, to be the top damage dealer with damage being all Fire brings to the table. I would not expect any set to  threaten Fire's position for top damage. Btw, Radiation's ability to spread damage it contingent upon hitting a contaminated target. A lot of times (at least at lower levels or when dealing with groups) by the time you get a target contaminated it dies before you can hit it again. Its a somewhat fickle mechanism short of using Fusion to guarantee your hits contaminate.

 

I am not sure it is fair to criticize the set for lack of controls when its perk is minor DoTs all over the place. Endurance savings via Blood Frenzy, bonus damage via DoTs and expenditure of Blood Frenzy. . .adding controls would seem to be overbalancing.

 

Why not?  That was one of my initial observations of the set in that Blood Frenzy gives you minor endurance and recharge bonuses.  My observation comes from using a set that has no endurance management early on (Electric Armor) and has a need to reduce endurance costs.  I'd say take a look at the build I posted and tell me what is wrong.  I'm saying that even with Savage's Blood Frenzy discounting my endurance and stacking the 20% recharge bonus with the 20% recharge bonus of Lightning Reflexes, I still had management issues killing resistant foes without running out of END first and against larger sets of mobs, I wasn't killing before they chipped a chunk of my health off.  In many situations, expending blood frenzy felt harmful for lack of return and if you become exhausted, you are required to manage it either via Blood Thirst or just not utilize max blood stacks in the first place.  My criticism of that particular mechanic is, is it a feature you're meant to capitalize on (think Radiation Melee's contamination gimmick) or a limiting factor to balance a strong boon the set has (think Titan Weapons' momentum)?  Or is it neither?  Both?  Am I using the mechanic wrong?

 

I admit I am curious why you have not three slotted your attacks for damage (slots which could  have come from ones allocated to Jump Kick and Leap Attack--two attacks which do not seem necessary to have given they do not help build Blood Frenzy and using them burns time during the life of a Blood Frenzy stack).

 

 

I find myself more often in Offensive or Defensive Adaptation than Efficient but some of that is influenced by the nature of the primary it is paired with. Another difference in experience comes down I suspect to the Fury mechanic. As a scrapper, my character starts at his max damage output whereas you need to work up to it. I told someone that it floats in the back of my head that SM/Bio might perform better on a Brute given you could sustain attacks/being attacked long enough to build up sufficient Fury. I have played and am playing a DM/Electric Brute (both my Brutes are at level 34) and I like it as an armor set quite a bit (particularly paired with Dark Melee). I can see its benefit to SM as it grants both a heal and endurance regain. Sadly it does not also boost damage output like Shield or Fire. Even so, a bit of perma-Hasten and slotting up Energize and Power Sink, and I suspect you will have a pretty decent solo character.

 

That's the nature of the powerset system though (talking about how the character will eventually work out), but I'm specifically looking for tricks and tips for the set, it's areas of expertise, what to pair it with and what to not pair it with, or how to make the set better.  For example, Dark melee: it's niche is being mainly a damage type that isn't commonly resisted and doesn't have many AoEs but it can bolster your attack to a ridiculous degree via Soul Drain and it's single target damage is fast and effective.  Couple it with a defense set and the heal will make it easier when you take shots and paired with a resist set, Touch of Fear and the set's -ToHit can make you near untouchable to a few targets.

 

I'm here to state my experiences that the endurance discount of Savage is moderately small whose impact is more felt when you use up your blood frenzy rather than when you are rocking with max stacks.  The recharge bonus I could see being useful for clicky armor sets though...still doesn't make up for the fact that the exhaustion mechanic is bad and doesn't pay off for the effects you gain from using the skills.

 

 

The question is what type of damage are you expecting Savage Melee to output. The following is from attacking a small group of +1/+2 Crey and Freakshow while in Efficient Adaptation.

 

lol I'm not looking for a specific result.  I'm asking what sells this set.  Why would you pick this set instead of Claws?  What does this set do that other sets don't or not as well?  What tradeoffs does this set make to do what it does?

 

Aesthetics? Claws never appealed to me as there are not that many clawed superheroes running about and most famous one is kinda known for a less than totally heroic approach to dealing with bad guys (cool though he is).  Mechanically, does Claws build stacks toward extra damage or range on any of its attacks?

 

Maybe our damage expectation are different?

 

You tell me.  Do you feel the set does good damage?  How useful has the set's utility been to you?

 

As I noted, its been working for me. As noted, that might be because I am going it on a Scrapper and/or using Bio Armor to back it.

 

As the title says, I've come into the thread with the experience that the set is meh. I had to shelve the guy because he's a drag to play and went back to playing my Elec/Bio Stalker.  In the back of my head, I have to wonder if Savage Leap is just so good that it makes the set that fun to play.  That's why I'm asking on the forums because just looking at it, Savage Leap looks pretty meh still.  The only boon so far that has shined through is the skill animations look nice.

 

I was enjoying the set before Savage Leap. Savage Leap is certainly a wonderful gain but I would seriously doubt it makes things so good that all your problems with the powerset will vanish.

 

Also, Bio armor is...just ridiculous lol.  It's one power alone (Boundless Energy) makes it so I can get away with no endurance slotting and shifting back into efficiency mode, I can practically never run out of endurance.  As a stalker, starting with Assassin's Strike in offensive mode, finishing my alpha strike then swapping to efficiency mode + DNA siphon...but Electric Melee is also rather ridiculous on Stalker...the most powerful version of the set across all melee.  So many tricks you can do with that set...

 

It (and its eqiuvalent--Inexhaustible for everyone else) is certainly nice though you figure that the slots you save on slotting endurance reduction in attack powers is consumed by the slots you stick in it (for health and endurance). Of course it is totally worth it.

 

[Leogunner]

The real problem in saying what niche Savage Melee occupies is the difficulty in getting numbers at this point. Detailed info on Blood Frenzy suggests it grants 4% Recharge and 6% reduction in endurance costs to anything you do. But a mouseover of multiple stacks shows the Recharge at the same 4% and 51% reduction to endurance costs (which I can see no way of getting to with 5 stacks starting from 1 stack granting 6% as additively you'd expect 30% and muliplicatively  you'd expect 26.6%). I suppose if I don't mind lots of trips to the hospital and the experience debt that would need to be paid off  I could do some testing (though waiting to 50 might be more palatable).

 

That's interesting.

 

The way I monitor the bonuses is I just have Recharge bonus and Global Endurance Discount as attributes I monitor.

 

 

Perhaps the set is bugged and isn't giving the proper amounts of bonuses for Brute.

 

I believe a design goal is for Fire, on any AT, to be the top damage dealer with damage being all Fire brings to the table. I would not expect any set to  threaten Fire's position for top damage.

 

Right, I know that.  I'm more trying to get you in the mindset of why we're comparing sets in a certain way.  Fire's niche is clean, less resisted, unassisted DPS and is a sort of benchmark.  Claws is kind of similar in that it's a benchmark for efficiency.  It's mostly quick animations with a reduced cost for its skills.  What I'm trying to nail down is where Savage falls in in there with regards to efficiency, effectiveness, speed and damage (that's all it has besides a ranged teleport).  Either that or maybe discover the hidden secrets of Savage that I'm not experiencing.

 

I admit I am curious why you have not three slotted your attacks for damage (slots which could  have come from ones allocated to Jump Kick and Leap Attack--two attacks which do not seem necessary to have given they do not help build Blood Frenzy and using them burns time during the life of a Blood Frenzy stack).

 

Brutes don't typically have to slot for damage early on because Brute damage scales on attacks are low.  For example, looking at the numbers from the character creator:

lvl 50 Scrapper Maiming Claw says 85 damage per activation

lvl 50 Brute Maiming Claw says 54 damage per activation

 

Slotting for 95% damage adds more for the bigger number.  Not saying you don't bother slotting for damage on a Brute, it's just not as much a priority as accuracy and endurance (and recharge).  Jump kick and Leap Attack are taking 3 slots slots away and are merely concept powers.  Those skills are actually doing their job lol.  They provide CC every now and again (Spring Attack also benefits from the recharge bonuses so I can use it a bit more often) and while not the most powerful and effective, sometimes you have to sacrifice a little to get those extra concept powers in there.  I'm positive they aren't the source of the issue here lol

 

 

Aesthetics? Claws never appealed to me as there are not that many clawed superheroes running about and most famous one is kinda known for a less than totally heroic approach to dealing with bad guys (cool though he is).  Mechanically, does Claws build stacks toward extra damage or range on any of its attacks?

 

Right, we've established Savage looks nice.

 

As for what does Claws build stacks toward: the skill is called Follow Up.  It actually works well because it can easily stack 2 times, adding 10% ToHit for each stack and does damage (and increases damage)...20% ToHit is very important with respect to how heavily you need to slot for Accuracy and just having a constant 10% ToHit can mean the difference between needing to 1slot Acc in all your attacks to needing to 2slot Acc in all attacks to hit higher level foes.

 

 

It (and its eqiuvalent--Inexhaustible for everyone else) is certainly nice though you figure that the slots you save on slotting endurance reduction in attack powers is consumed by the slots you stick in it (for health and endurance). Of course it is totally worth it.

 

But I'm not saving slots!  I still have to slot endurance reduction on my attacks to get by.  That's one of the things annoying me in the back of my mind: I should be 2 slotting for accuracy, not needing to slot for endurance reduction at all.

[Leogunner]

I admit I am curious why you have not three slotted your attacks for damage (slots which could  have come from ones allocated to Jump Kick and Leap Attack--two attacks which do not seem necessary to have given they do not help build Blood Frenzy and using them burns time during the life of a Blood Frenzy stack).

 

I just had a thought after my previous post which runs rather counter to your statement at the end there.

 

"the life of a Blood Frenzy stack"...are you always keeping your blood frenzy stacks capped?  Do you avoid using Rending Flurry and Hemorrhage at max stacks?  Or do you use them at 4 stacks?  This whole discussion would be a whole different beast if the exhaustion mechanic wasn't so limiting.  For me, I've tried just balls-to-the-wall and taking exhaustion on the chin but it hardly increases kill speed.  I've tried limited use of the consuming skills and just maintain the blood stacks but that decreases kill speed and still runs out of endurance.  I've tried balancing the negative effects of exhaustion using Blood Thirst but that has resulted in just as slow a kill speed as being conservative...

 

...but this all seems to stem from how much benefit blood stacks provides, the effect it has on the blood stack consumer skills and the exhaustion debuff.  It's not adding up and I'm not even that big on numbers...

[iBones]

I admit I am curious why you have not three slotted your attacks for damage (slots which could  have come from ones allocated to Jump Kick and Leap Attack--two attacks which do not seem necessary to have given they do not help build Blood Frenzy and using them burns time during the life of a Blood Frenzy stack).

 

I just had a thought after my previous post which runs rather counter to your statement at the end there.

 

"the life of a Blood Frenzy stack"...are you always keeping your blood frenzy stacks capped?  Do you avoid using Rending Flurry and Hemorrhage at max stacks?  Or do you use them at 4 stacks?  This whole discussion would be a whole different beast if the exhaustion mechanic wasn't so limiting.  For me, I've tried just balls-to-the-wall and taking exhaustion on the chin but it hardly increases kill speed.  I've tried limited use of the consuming skills and just maintain the blood stacks but that decreases kill speed and still runs out of endurance.  I've tried balancing the negative effects of exhaustion using Blood Thirst but that has resulted in just as slow a kill speed as being conservative...

 

...but this all seems to stem from how much benefit blood stacks provides, the effect it has on the blood stack consumer skills and the exhaustion debuff.  It's not adding up and I'm not even that big on numbers...

 

I run Scrappers in place of Brutes, but monitor both forums as a result of little to no info on many sets that I prefer.

 

To add to your discussion - Savage Melee FEELS like the damage is....higher than claws but less than fire? But at the same time, I can genuinely see the DoT's add up across multiple targets to achieve a rather large total average. Unfortunately, this means that outside of total averages, it generally feels slower damage-wise than most other "faster" activation time sets. Which begs the question of - was the set balanced around AoE DoT application with little to no effort in maintaining balance in a given time frame?

 

Some points to be made -

 

1. The endurance reduction is not noticeable when paired with sets that would seem to benefit from it.

 

2. Blood Thirst makes the set feel A LOT better. The slow activation time is unfortunate.

 

3. Given the amount of potential AoE, this may very well be a set with higher highs and in general remain underwhelming before that point.

 

To your point in regards to potential bugs Leo - I can't say that my first thought was "bug"...but i generally agree, the DoT component seems flaky at times. My gut tells me it can just be visual, but I can also see a world where some DoT are being missed, and could make all the difference.

[Erratic1]

The real problem in saying what niche Savage Melee occupies is the difficulty in getting numbers at this point. Detailed info on Blood Frenzy suggests it grants 4% Recharge and 6% reduction in endurance costs to anything you do. But a mouseover of multiple stacks shows the Recharge at the same 4% and 51% reduction to endurance costs (which I can see no way of getting to with 5 stacks starting from 1 stack granting 6% as additively you'd expect 30% and muliplicatively  you'd expect 26.6%). I suppose if I don't mind lots of trips to the hospital and the experience debt that would need to be paid off  I could do some testing (though waiting to 50 might be more palatable).

 

 

The way I monitor the bonuses is I just have Recharge bonus and Global Endurance Discount as attributes I monitor.

 

 

Perhaps the set is bugged and isn't giving the proper amounts of bonuses for Brute.

 

I had completely forgotten about being able to get number that way. Given they are continuously being updated, I would suspect them to be accurate and the info off the buff symbols to be suspect. Certainly it seemed that each stack of Blood Frenzy did indeed increase the Recharge bonus (and Endurance discount as well).

 

I believe a design goal is for Fire, on any AT, to be the top damage dealer with damage being all Fire brings to the table. I would not expect any set to  threaten Fire's position for top damage.

 

Right, I know that.  I'm more trying to get you in the mindset of why we're comparing sets in a certain way.  Fire's niche is clean, less resisted, unassisted DPS and is a sort of benchmark.  Claws is kind of similar in that it's a benchmark for efficiency.  It's mostly quick animations with a reduced cost for its skills.  What I'm trying to nail down is where Savage falls in in there with regards to efficiency, effectiveness, speed and damage (that's all it has besides a ranged teleport).  Either that or maybe discover the hidden secrets of Savage that I'm not experiencing.

 

Let's take for now that one can indeed stack up to 20% Recharge and 30% Endurance discount. My gut suggests to me that you still want to periodically drop your stacks for the benefit they provide to dealing damage, so you are not going to stay at that value. Given an action to drop stacks and multiple actions to build, I am going to consider that on average you are looking at a 10% Recharge bonus and 15% Endurance discount from the Blood Frenzy mechanic across your fights of any real duration. Couple with the bleeds and the periodic attack modifications. . .Do you think that is not enough for a powerset?

 

It (and its eqiuvalent--Inexhaustible for everyone else) is certainly nice though you figure that the slots you save on slotting endurance reduction in attack powers is consumed by the slots you stick in it (for health and endurance). Of course it is totally worth it.

 

But I'm not saving slots!  I still have to slot endurance reduction on my attacks to get by.  That's one of the things annoying me in the back of my mind: I should be 2 slotting for accuracy, not needing to slot for endurance reduction at all.

 

 

I have no slots dedicated to endurance reduction on my attacks on the SM/Bio scrapper. Presumably the only difference between your Bio Armor usage and mine are the primaries--mine being Savage Melee. Does that not point to a benefit the set is giving?

 

[Leogunner]

I admit I am curious why you have not three slotted your attacks for damage (slots which could  have come from ones allocated to Jump Kick and Leap Attack--two attacks which do not seem necessary to have given they do not help build Blood Frenzy and using them burns time during the life of a Blood Frenzy stack).

 

I just had a thought after my previous post which runs rather counter to your statement at the end there.

 

"the life of a Blood Frenzy stack"...are you always keeping your blood frenzy stacks capped?  Do you avoid using Rending Flurry and Hemorrhage at max stacks?  Or do you use them at 4 stacks?  This whole discussion would be a whole different beast if the exhaustion mechanic wasn't so limiting.  For me, I've tried just balls-to-the-wall and taking exhaustion on the chin but it hardly increases kill speed.  I've tried limited use of the consuming skills and just maintain the blood stacks but that decreases kill speed and still runs out of endurance.  I've tried balancing the negative effects of exhaustion using Blood Thirst but that has resulted in just as slow a kill speed as being conservative...

 

...but this all seems to stem from how much benefit blood stacks provides, the effect it has on the blood stack consumer skills and the exhaustion debuff.  It's not adding up and I'm not even that big on numbers...

 

I run Scrappers in place of Brutes, but monitor both forums as a result of little to no info on many sets that I prefer.

 

To add to your discussion - Savage Melee FEELS like the damage is....higher than claws but less than fire? But at the same time, I can genuinely see the DoT's add up across multiple targets to achieve a rather large total average. Unfortunately, this means that outside of total averages, it generally feels slower damage-wise than most other "faster" activation time sets. Which begs the question of - was the set balanced around AoE DoT application with little to no effort in maintaining balance in a given time frame?

 

Some points to be made -

 

1. The endurance reduction is not noticeable when paired with sets that would seem to benefit from it.

 

2. Blood Thirst makes the set feel A LOT better. The slow activation time is unfortunate.

 

3. Given the amount of potential AoE, this may very well be a set with higher highs and in general remain underwhelming before that point.

 

To your point in regards to potential bugs Leo - I can't say that my first thought was "bug"...but i generally agree, the DoT component seems flaky at times. My gut tells me it can just be visual, but I can also see a world where some DoT are being missed, and could make all the difference.

 

I can certainly attest to your comparisons with Claws.  Claws is an efficiency set meant to dispose of fewer targets.  I can see the potential for Savage being more damage due to its lack of comparable CC to Claws (is Shockwave still knockback? I do enjoy knockback but can definitely understand how it could decrease DPS to groups) and additional effect of DoT.

 

Regarding the potential AoE, I guess I'll have to buckle down and just level to 33 so I can try out the full set.  The concept in my head was a guy ripping and leaping through masses of foes, zipping around with Acrobatic AoEs simulated by things like unsuppressed movement, Savage leap and Spring Attack.  I'll have to see if I can make the concept work although I wish I would have made him Energy Aura instead to capitalize off the stealth it inherently gets.  Savage just doesn't feel like a set meant to draw attention or maintain presence though, not when you go through bouts of exhaustion in the middle of fights...

 

That being said, I wish Blood Thirst made you immune to exhaustion for its duration and with a slight duration bonus.

 

 

 

I had completely forgotten about being able to get number that way. Given they are continuously being updated, I would suspect them to be accurate and the info off the buff symbols to be suspect. Certainly it seemed that each stack of Blood Frenzy did indeed increase the Recharge bonus (and Endurance discount as well).

 

 

 

Let's take for now that one can indeed stack up to 20% Recharge and 30% Endurance discount. My gut suggests to me that you still want to periodically drop your stacks for the benefit they provide to dealing damage, so you are not going to stay at that value. Given an action to drop stacks and multiple actions to build, I am going to consider that on average you are looking at a 10% Recharge bonus and 15% Endurance discount from the Blood Frenzy mechanic across your fights of any real duration. Couple with the bleeds and the periodic attack modifications. . .Do you think that is not enough for a powerset?

 

Well, 24% END redux..

 

Regardless, I don't believe that is enough, no. 

 

Even though I don't like directly comparing sets like this, take a look at Claws again.  It's not stated directly, but it also has an inherent effect of less END costs.  Simplified, it's attacks costs 3, 4, 6, 9, 7, 9, 11.

 

Savage attacks cost simplified 4, 6, 8, 9, 13, 13, 18.  Taking in blood stacks' 25% redux, that's reduced to 3, 4.5, 6, 6.75, 9.75, 9.75, 13.5 which is still costlier than Claws...but this is a global discount that affects all your powers so there's that.

 

Most sets range around +1-3 END more per attack than Claws, some AoEs even netting around 5 more END per activation.  There also comes the prospect that the set (and sets like Dual Blades) that come with an attack that can be maintained 100% that buffs ToHit.  It'd be the Equivalent of combining Blood Thirst's effects with Savage Strike's activation and the possibility of stacking the effect.  Claws is quite efficient...

 

But that's not all!  Claws has Focus, a 100% knockdown on a short recharge and a cheap END cost (range can be ignored).  It also has Shockwave, a 100% knockback.

 

Just a no bias comparison here, which is looking more stacked here?  Claws or Savage?  And the funny thing is, Claws isn't even great.  It's just efficient and middle of the road.  If I were looking at making a more offensive looking Claws alternative, I'd be looking at Dual Blades.  It also has a DoT feature as well as a "get even more +dmg and +ToHit" as well as a guaranteed CC mitigation option ontop of the features that Claws has.

 

Again, why does Savage not have 100% knockdown (or something equivalent)?  Why is its only debuff -def?  Other sets get their gimmicks AND that stuff. 

 

 

I have no slots dedicated to endurance reduction on my attacks on the SM/Bio scrapper. Presumably the only difference between your Bio Armor usage and mine are the primaries--mine being Savage Melee. Does that not point to a benefit the set is giving?

 

No.

 

We're talking about Savage Melee, not Bio.  What you're saying isn't about Savage at all.  Like I said before, my Elec/Bio Stalker does the same thing your SM/Bio Scrapper does with slotting so the common element here is Bio, not Savage.

[Erratic1]

I have no slots dedicated to endurance reduction on my attacks on the SM/Bio scrapper. Presumably the only difference between your Bio Armor usage and mine are the primaries--mine being Savage Melee. Does that not point to a benefit the set is giving?

 

No.

 

We're talking about Savage Melee, not Bio.  What you're saying isn't about Savage at all.  Like I said before, my Elec/Bio Stalker does the same thing your SM/Bio Scrapper does with slotting so the common element here is Bio, not Savage.

 

It seemed you were saying you had to  slot endurance reduction.

 

 

Savage attacks cost simplified 4, 6, 8, 9, 13, 13, 18.  Taking in blood stacks' 25% redux, that's reduced to 3, 4.5, 6, 6.75, 9.75, 9.75, 13.5 which is still costlier than Claws...but this is a global discount that affects all your powers so there's that.

 

But Savage Melee also applies a DoT on all of its attacks. Knockdown is nice but it does not shorten how long you have to swing on something to put it down. Control is nice but you do not control something to death, you apply damage to it to defeat it. Extra damage is worth something. Savage Melee again also expends its Blood Frenzy for a long lasting DoT or massive boost to AoE damage depending on which spender you use. Claws does not.

 

Just a no bias comparison here, which is looking more stacked here?  Claws or Savage?  And the funny thing is, Claws isn't even great.  It's just efficient and middle of the road.  If I were looking at making a more offensive looking Claws alternative, I'd be looking at Dual Blades.  It also has a DoT feature as well as a "get even more +dmg and +ToHit" as well as a guaranteed CC mitigation option ontop of the features that Claws has.

 

 

And does Dual Blades cost more to use than Claws? If so then by your criteria above Dual Blades is lacking.

 

[Leogunner]

It seemed you were saying you had to  slot endurance reduction.

 

To clarify, my Elec/Bio Stalker doesn't need end redux in its powers because Boundless Energy grants it much recovery and Efficiency mode practically makes it immune to running out of endurance.

 

My Savage/Elec Brute DOES need end redux because until it can get Power Sink, the discount from Savage isn't sufficent as I've shown, that 23% END redux isn't enough to forego slotting for endurance reduction.  The attacks are not that cheap to use.

 

 

But Savage Melee also applies a DoT on all of its attacks. Knockdown is nice but it does not shorten how long you have to swing on something to put it down. Control is nice but you do not control something to death, you apply damage to it to defeat it. Extra damage is worth something. Savage Melee again also expends its Blood Frenzy for a long lasting DoT or massive boost to AoE damage depending on which spender you use. Claws does not.

 

Are you being facetious now?  Or are you just ignoring my statements?

 

Yes, Savage applies a DoT...so does Dual Blades and it still has guaranteed knockdown.  Savage also cost more endurance, has longer cast times and self-nerfs its boosts via a 12sec exhaustion compared to Claws.

 

Also, your long lasting DoT amounts to 2 extra DoTs.

 

Your attempt to justify Savage's lack of mitigation or utility is growing repetitive.  You have yet to give any good reason why the set doesn't have a 100% knockdown when sets like Katana/BS have knockup, knockdown and can cap defense to melee/lethal AND they have DoT.

 

And does Dual Blades cost more to use than Claws? If so then by your criteria above Dual Blades is lacking.

 

WTF are you talking about?  Now you're making no sense.

 

Yes, Dual Blades costs more to cast than Claws...but Dual Blades has mostly everything claws has (a +dmg/ToHit attack, a 100% single target knockdown, a 100% cone knockdown...just not its skill END redux) with combos on top.

 

Are you trying to say Claws is too strong because it has cheaper skills with more CC and utility?  Or are you trying to say Savage has more DPS than claws because it has DoTs?  Like iBones mentioned before, I think Savage has more DPS on groups of mobs...but it's only slight.  Against single targets, many will outclass it, including Claws.  Touting the set's DPS, I feel, is a loosing battle. 

 

I'll remind you that you're the one trying to defend the set's DPS while I'm arguing the set's lack of utility.  You're trying to tell me that Savage Melee does enough damage to warrant a 67% single target knockdown and a bit of recharge bonus as its only utility.

[Brutal Justice]

This has been a very interesting read.  However, I feel like I would need more numbers to fully compare claws and savage.  I don’t have access to the numbers right now.  I would need to know the damage per activation of each attack, and the damage per endurance of said powers, while also factoring in aoe.  Just seeing the endurance cost of each attack gives me very little information on what is actually occurring.  If a 4 end move does 4 damage while a 6 end move does 7 damage, then the 6 end move is more efficient dam/end wise.  Then also factor in dam/act for kill speed efficiency all while also considering aoe vs single target.  I am enjoying this thread but without the raw data, “feelings” doesn’t tell me much.  I would post some of those numbers but I don’t have access to them right now.

[Erratic1]

 

Are you being facetious now?  Or are you just ignoring my statements?

 

I had thought about saying the exact same thing in my previous post since I had to repeat myself.

 

But you know, the day is too short and it is no skin off my back if you think Savage Melee is underperforming. You're entitled to your opinion. I know I asked a guy I grouped with this morning who uses the powerset what he thought of it (he was level 26 FWIW) and he said he was quite enjoying it. But not everyone will and you're one of those.

 

Easy solution, drop the character and move on.

 

[iBones]

 

Are you being facetious now?  Or are you just ignoring my statements?

 

I had thought about saying the exact same thing in my previous post since I had to repeat myself.

 

But you know, the day is too short and it is no skin off my back if you think Savage Melee is underperforming. You're entitled to your opinion. I know I asked a guy I grouped with this morning who uses the powerset what he thought of it (he was level 26 FWIW) and he said he was quite enjoying it. But not everyone will and you're one of those.

 

Easy solution, drop the character and move on.

 

To be fair, there are players who enjoy playing Dark/Dark without IOs. Some just like to watch the world burn.

 

In the context of this thread - there is NOT a world where in it's current form and without SIGNIFICANT time and Inf spent, that Savage Melee outperforms virtually any other set in quality of life play and single target total dps. The issue with subjective reasoning is that a few people saying "it's fine" literally does nothing to further the knowledge required to help remedy the set.

 

I will confess that my opinion and point of view heavily weighs on how well the set performs as that is how I judge "fun"and whether a set or build is "fine". With this is mind, there is little room for any conflicting arguments that in no way offer solutions or specific build gimmicks to alleviate this fact. SM underperforms in virtually every aspect of the current CoH scape. Which leads those like Leo to question the presence of a bug. And I am somewhat inclined to agree.

 

Part of me still thinks that we could be missing something, and perhaps when built "correctly" , the set reaches a new level. Though, with the same investment, most other sets will probably still out perform it. The main reason I chose SM was to utilize how AoE focused the two heavier hitters are, so that when paired with /Dark, I could stack enough DoTs and slight burst to efficient and lean on the inherent -End to help with /Dark. In practice, with standard IO's and no sets - I still have end issues, and the damage feels flaky.

 

/shrug

[Leogunner]

This has been a very interesting read.  However, I feel like I would need more numbers to fully compare claws and savage.  I don’t have access to the numbers right now.  I would need to know the damage per activation of each attack, and the damage per endurance of said powers, while also factoring in aoe.  Just seeing the endurance cost of each attack gives me very little information on what is actually occurring.  If a 4 end move does 4 damage while a 6 end move does 7 damage, then the 6 end move is more efficient dam/end wise.  Then also factor in dam/act for kill speed efficiency all while also considering aoe vs single target.  I am enjoying this thread but without the raw data, “feelings” doesn’t tell me much.  I would post some of those numbers but I don’t have access to them right now.

 

You're totally right.  The main reason I started the thread is because I was looking through the forums and there just isn't much talk about the set.  And considering the set wasn't actually released live initially (I think it was just on test servers but I could be wrong), you'd think more people would be discussing it.  I made this thread in hopes someone experienced at parsing would take up the challenge as I'm not very good at it.  For example, I had my brute out in Nerva scratching stuff to find out just how much DoT the blood frenzy bonuses add.  For about 45 min I was scratching stuff and counting the DoTs and what I found for Hemorrhage at least, was that with no stacks, Hemorrhage does 5 DoTs and at max stacks it does 6 and each stack did around 10 points of damage more but then that could be due to fury and what not to get a few stacks built up in the first place.  Basically, my collection of data was a mess and I'd probably have to roll up a Scrapper or Tanker Savage or perhaps some parser program.

 

There's also the point that on the wiki, the powers were slated to do other things like regen or insta-recharge some skills.  I'm thinking some of the things had to be cut but they didn't have time to fully balance them out before putting it live.

 

I had thought about saying the exact same thing in my previous post since I had to repeat myself.

 

Okay.  If you stated a point and I replied to it, you don't have to state the point again.

 

Like the whole point about Bio and how it plays a role in Savage's END effects have already been pointed out.  We're at the impasse that would require numbers so your talking points don't require repeating.  Or like the point that DoT is comparable to Knockdown.  You'd have to be intentionally obtuse to even try to make that argument.  Okay, so DoT shortens overall kill time...but what if the foe you're attacking is a Carnie with that one Mask ability that sinks your Res, Def and END?  Or you're trying to stop a ghost from putting up its AoE -ToHit veil?  A 100% knockdown would be very beneficial in the efficiency of killing them, not because knockdown is more efficient than DoT but because powersets are built to have utility to exploit a variety of situations.

 

But you know, the day is too short and it is no skin off my back if you think Savage Melee is underperforming. You're entitled to your opinion. I know I asked a guy I grouped with this morning who uses the powerset what he thought of it (he was level 26 FWIW) and he said he was quite enjoying it. But not everyone will and you're one of those.

 

Easy solution, drop the character and move on.

 

Why are you defensive about Savage Melee?  At worse, some people will just decide not to play it.  I'm hoping, if powers get an update pass with the people running the game, they'll throw a few changes to the set, namely a 100% knockdown in Vicious and reduce the exhaust time or just remove it.

 

Also, I find it rather funny you think I'm some min-max guy looking for best performance and drop weak characters but then you also pointed out how my build has Jump Kick and Spring Attack.  I'm not beyond making concept characters that specialize in the use of certain powers.

 

...but that shade you threw on Spring...I actually got this Brute to 36 and Spring Attack is pretty nice.  His END problem also disappeared because he has a full heal for END every minute that requires zero accuracy but that doesn't mean Savage's END discount helped at all lol

 

I also got to play around with Savage Leap.  I was actually slightly disappointed that it is a TP to the target rather than a regular teleport like Spring, Shield Charge or Lightning Rod.  But now that I think about it, I didn't know that was a thing the game could do.  Maybe they spent a good deal of effort making that aspect of the set function properly and didn't get the time messing with the rest of the set.

[Leogunner]

 

Are you being facetious now?  Or are you just ignoring my statements?

 

I had thought about saying the exact same thing in my previous post since I had to repeat myself.

 

But you know, the day is too short and it is no skin off my back if you think Savage Melee is underperforming. You're entitled to your opinion. I know I asked a guy I grouped with this morning who uses the powerset what he thought of it (he was level 26 FWIW) and he said he was quite enjoying it. But not everyone will and you're one of those.

 

Easy solution, drop the character and move on.

 

To be fair, there are players who enjoy playing Dark/Dark without IOs. Some just like to watch the world burn.

 

In the context of this thread - there is NOT a world where in it's current form and without SIGNIFICANT time and Inf spent, that Savage Melee outperforms virtually any other set in quality of life play and single target total dps. The issue with subjective reasoning is that a few people saying "it's fine" literally does nothing to further the knowledge required to help remedy the set.

 

I will confess that my opinion and point of view heavily weighs on how well the set performs as that is how I judge "fun"and whether a set or build is "fine". With this is mind, there is little room for any conflicting arguments that in no way offer solutions or specific build gimmicks to alleviate this fact. SM underperforms in virtually every aspect of the current CoH scape. Which leads those like Leo to question the presence of a bug. And I am somewhat inclined to agree.

 

Part of me still thinks that we could be missing something, and perhaps when built "correctly" , the set reaches a new level. Though, with the same investment, most other sets will probably still out perform it. The main reason I chose SM was to utilize how AoE focused the two heavier hitters are, so that when paired with /Dark, I could stack enough DoTs and slight burst to efficient and lean on the inherent -End to help with /Dark. In practice, with standard IO's and no sets - I still have end issues, and the damage feels flaky.

 

/shrug

 

What initially got me curious was doing a search for the set.

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,1012.msg5471.html#msg5471

 

This post (interestingly, no responses) got me looking into the wiki and comparing them to the powers I'd soon be getting.  Through more searching, it's just very little dialog on the set.  Eventually I'll have to work on parsing numbers and do more testing but I DO NOT like having to powerlevel things T_T

[iBones]

 

Are you being facetious now?  Or are you just ignoring my statements?

 

I had thought about saying the exact same thing in my previous post since I had to repeat myself.

 

But you know, the day is too short and it is no skin off my back if you think Savage Melee is underperforming. You're entitled to your opinion. I know I asked a guy I grouped with this morning who uses the powerset what he thought of it (he was level 26 FWIW) and he said he was quite enjoying it. But not everyone will and you're one of those.

 

Easy solution, drop the character and move on.

 

To be fair, there are players who enjoy playing Dark/Dark without IOs. Some just like to watch the world burn.

 

In the context of this thread - there is NOT a world where in it's current form and without SIGNIFICANT time and Inf spent, that Savage Melee outperforms virtually any other set in quality of life play and single target total dps. The issue with subjective reasoning is that a few people saying "it's fine" literally does nothing to further the knowledge required to help remedy the set.

 

I will confess that my opinion and point of view heavily weighs on how well the set performs as that is how I judge "fun"and whether a set or build is "fine". With this is mind, there is little room for any conflicting arguments that in no way offer solutions or specific build gimmicks to alleviate this fact. SM underperforms in virtually every aspect of the current CoH scape. Which leads those like Leo to question the presence of a bug. And I am somewhat inclined to agree.

 

Part of me still thinks that we could be missing something, and perhaps when built "correctly" , the set reaches a new level. Though, with the same investment, most other sets will probably still out perform it. The main reason I chose SM was to utilize how AoE focused the two heavier hitters are, so that when paired with /Dark, I could stack enough DoTs and slight burst to efficient and lean on the inherent -End to help with /Dark. In practice, with standard IO's and no sets - I still have end issues, and the damage feels flaky.

 

/shrug

 

What initially got me curious was doing a search for the set.

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,1012.msg5471.html#msg5471

 

This post (interestingly, no responses) got me looking into the wiki and comparing them to the powers I'd soon be getting.  Through more searching, it's just very little dialog on the set.  Eventually I'll have to work on parsing numbers and do more testing but I DO NOT like having to powerlevel things T_T

 

This probably will not make you feel any better - but outside of my character concept for SM (SM/Dark for a dark, Dante style fighter), the set was so poor in general practice, that I resorted to PL'ing him in AE. Which was not my initial intent since returning to the city. I wanted to enjoy my character concept and PLAY the game. But, the set i chose....yikes.

 

Currently still has major issues and I have since moved on to Rad/Fire and going to start building an all-arounder in the form of DM/SD or DB/Rad. Just haven't settled yet.

 

Side note - Since returning...the scrapper forums feels vastly different than I remember. There is far less focus on unique challenges, building, and learning. Kind of disappointing.

[Leogunner]

 

Are you being facetious now?  Or are you just ignoring my statements?

 

I had thought about saying the exact same thing in my previous post since I had to repeat myself.

 

But you know, the day is too short and it is no skin off my back if you think Savage Melee is underperforming. You're entitled to your opinion. I know I asked a guy I grouped with this morning who uses the powerset what he thought of it (he was level 26 FWIW) and he said he was quite enjoying it. But not everyone will and you're one of those.

 

Easy solution, drop the character and move on.

 

To be fair, there are players who enjoy playing Dark/Dark without IOs. Some just like to watch the world burn.

 

In the context of this thread - there is NOT a world where in it's current form and without SIGNIFICANT time and Inf spent, that Savage Melee outperforms virtually any other set in quality of life play and single target total dps. The issue with subjective reasoning is that a few people saying "it's fine" literally does nothing to further the knowledge required to help remedy the set.

 

I will confess that my opinion and point of view heavily weighs on how well the set performs as that is how I judge "fun"and whether a set or build is "fine". With this is mind, there is little room for any conflicting arguments that in no way offer solutions or specific build gimmicks to alleviate this fact. SM underperforms in virtually every aspect of the current CoH scape. Which leads those like Leo to question the presence of a bug. And I am somewhat inclined to agree.

 

Part of me still thinks that we could be missing something, and perhaps when built "correctly" , the set reaches a new level. Though, with the same investment, most other sets will probably still out perform it. The main reason I chose SM was to utilize how AoE focused the two heavier hitters are, so that when paired with /Dark, I could stack enough DoTs and slight burst to efficient and lean on the inherent -End to help with /Dark. In practice, with standard IO's and no sets - I still have end issues, and the damage feels flaky.

 

/shrug

 

What initially got me curious was doing a search for the set.

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,1012.msg5471.html#msg5471

 

This post (interestingly, no responses) got me looking into the wiki and comparing them to the powers I'd soon be getting.  Through more searching, it's just very little dialog on the set.  Eventually I'll have to work on parsing numbers and do more testing but I DO NOT like having to powerlevel things T_T

 

This probably will not make you feel any better - but outside of my character concept for SM (SM/Dark for a dark, Dante style fighter), the set was so poor in general practice, that I resorted to PL'ing him in AE. Which was not my initial intent since returning to the city. I wanted to enjoy my character concept and PLAY the game. But, the set i chose....yikes.

 

Currently still has major issues and I have since moved on to Rad/Fire and going to start building an all-arounder in the form of DM/SD or DB/Rad. Just haven't settled yet.

 

Side note - Since returning...the scrapper forums feels vastly different than I remember. There is far less focus on unique challenges, building, and learning. Kind of disappointing.

 

I still plan to level my brute but I kind of did the same and started on other projects, namely my Claw/EA brute I started to remember I made back in the day. I recall it being a fun stealthy murderer that was much easier to kill with than Savage. The brute I remade into into savage used to be an elec/elec brute and while it was a slog early on, he had the feature of being able to drain his foes making him able to at least not be a helpless doe in headlights against something that isn't going down fast.

[Mr. Vee]

Btw re claws - with the KB to kd io shockwave is glorious.

 

Been wanting to try savage but one can only play so many alts at once. Can't tell if this talk of it possibly underperforming makes me more or less likely to roll one in the next few days.

[iBones]

 

Are you being facetious now?  Or are you just ignoring my statements?

 

I had thought about saying the exact same thing in my previous post since I had to repeat myself.

 

But you know, the day is too short and it is no skin off my back if you think Savage Melee is underperforming. You're entitled to your opinion. I know I asked a guy I grouped with this morning who uses the powerset what he thought of it (he was level 26 FWIW) and he said he was quite enjoying it. But not everyone will and you're one of those.

 

Easy solution, drop the character and move on.

 

To be fair, there are players who enjoy playing Dark/Dark without IOs. Some just like to watch the world burn.

 

In the context of this thread - there is NOT a world where in it's current form and without SIGNIFICANT time and Inf spent, that Savage Melee outperforms virtually any other set in quality of life play and single target total dps. The issue with subjective reasoning is that a few people saying "it's fine" literally does nothing to further the knowledge required to help remedy the set.

 

I will confess that my opinion and point of view heavily weighs on how well the set performs as that is how I judge "fun"and whether a set or build is "fine". With this is mind, there is little room for any conflicting arguments that in no way offer solutions or specific build gimmicks to alleviate this fact. SM underperforms in virtually every aspect of the current CoH scape. Which leads those like Leo to question the presence of a bug. And I am somewhat inclined to agree.

 

Part of me still thinks that we could be missing something, and perhaps when built "correctly" , the set reaches a new level. Though, with the same investment, most other sets will probably still out perform it. The main reason I chose SM was to utilize how AoE focused the two heavier hitters are, so that when paired with /Dark, I could stack enough DoTs and slight burst to efficient and lean on the inherent -End to help with /Dark. In practice, with standard IO's and no sets - I still have end issues, and the damage feels flaky.

 

/shrug

 

What initially got me curious was doing a search for the set.

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,1012.msg5471.html#msg5471

 

This post (interestingly, no responses) got me looking into the wiki and comparing them to the powers I'd soon be getting.  Through more searching, it's just very little dialog on the set.  Eventually I'll have to work on parsing numbers and do more testing but I DO NOT like having to powerlevel things T_T

 

This probably will not make you feel any better - but outside of my character concept for SM (SM/Dark for a dark, Dante style fighter), the set was so poor in general practice, that I resorted to PL'ing him in AE. Which was not my initial intent since returning to the city. I wanted to enjoy my character concept and PLAY the game. But, the set i chose....yikes.

 

Currently still has major issues and I have since moved on to Rad/Fire and going to start building an all-arounder in the form of DM/SD or DB/Rad. Just haven't settled yet.

 

Side note - Since returning...the scrapper forums feels vastly different than I remember. There is far less focus on unique challenges, building, and learning. Kind of disappointing.

 

I still plan to level my brute but I kind of did the same and started on other projects, namely my Claw/EA brute I started to remember I made back in the day. I recall it being a fun stealthy murderer that was much easier to kill with than Savage. The brute I remade into into savage used to be an elec/elec brute and while it was a slog early on, he had the feature of being able to drain his foes making him able to at least not be a helpless doe in headlights against something that isn't going down fast.

 

I know there have been literal years since live, but i played so many Claws/ combos, I can't bring myself to make one here. That being said, /EA at a glance looks like a great secondary to add to the already fantastic set that is Claws.

 

Isn't that something? Virtually every other primary that includes the asterisk of, "Early on it's rough....but...." eventually makes up for the early disappointment with a higher ceiling. EXCEPT FOR SAVAGE. Truly speaks to the state of the set.

Btw re claws - with the KB to kd io shockwave is glorious.

 

Been wanting to try savage but one can only play so many alts at once. Can't tell if this talk of it possibly underperforming makes me more or less likely to roll one in the next few days.

 

Savage underperforms. I don't have the time to dump into the set to potentially see the return. It may very well end up being great at the top end. But with average investment - it feels incredibly underwhelming.

[Brutal Justice]

I have been trying to plan some power combinations for new toons using paragon wiki and I just noticed that there are several differences from the wiki to live. Shred was supposed to consume blood and thirst was supposed to be a heal to name a few differences. Maybe the set was intended to be balanced around a couple missing mechanics and that is why it’s perceived to be under performing.