Smoothing out Scrapper performance

[aethereal]

Scrappers currently have a very weird effect with their ATOs: a high-end Scrapper build can get 50%+ uptime on their +50% critical chance proc at level 50.

 

(The way you do this:  So let's say that you're putting the ATO in Total Focus (or some similar power).  It has a 20 second recharge time and a 2.53 second cast time, that means it will have a 90% proc rate down to about 15.5 seconds of local recharge.  If you have the recharge the ATO comes with and another +180% global recharge (perma-hasten), then that means that your total recharge time of the power is about 7 seconds, with a 90% proc rate.  Count the 2.53 second cast time, you can use the power 6.5 times per minute.  With the 90% proc rate, that's 5.87 activations per minute.  Times five seconds per activation is 29.4 seconds of uptime per minute -- half of your time, you're in +50% crits.  And this isn't the very best you can do).

 

But this is only possible at level 50 (the non-superior version of the ATO is 2 PPM, so only 2/3rds the uptime of the superior version), and only if you have an appropriate power to slot it into (most but not all sets do) and only if you're building tons of global recharge.  It's a huge boost in scrapper performance -- +50% crits is REALLY powerful, and it creates weird cliffs.

 

My proposal:

 

Change non-superior ATO's PPM from 2 to 2.5 (leave superior at 3).

Reduce the effect of the ATO from +50% proc rate to +40% proc rate

Increase basic scrapper critical rate from 5% (minions)/10% (non-minions) to 6% (minions)/12% (non-minions)

Increase the effect of the other scrapper ATO from +3%/+6% to +4%/+8%

 

Total effects:

 

A character with 50% uptime on the proc today has 58% (minions)/66% (non-minions) crit rate half the time and 8% (minions)/16% (non-minions) the other half of the time.  So a blended total crit rate of 33% (minions)/41% (non-minions).

 

Under this proposal, the same character would have a crit rate of 50% (minions)/60% (non-minions) half the time and 10% (minions)/20% (non-minions) the other half of the time.  So a blended total crit rate of 30% (minions)/40% (non-minions).  An extremely minor nerf (or perhaps no nerf at all when you consider that you can't start with your proc up).  Characters who have less than 50% uptime would get a mild buff.  Characters who have more than 50% uptime would get a larger nerf.

 

Scrappers at less-than-50 levels would get a substantial buff, able to sustain a higher uptime with their proc and being less dependent on the proc.  Sets that do not have a great place to put the proc would be less disadvantaged.

Edited July 14, 2021 by aethereal
Switched the words crit and proc in two incidences.

[Replacement]

Thanks.  I've wanted to see something like this for a long time but didn't know where the numbers would fall.  If nothing else, you've provided a nice "possible high-end average up-time" value to make the math easier.  I am all for the extremely minor impact to builds that already kill so hard they won't notice, in exchange for a better experience for other builds (and sets with lower ATO reliability).  Especially when you notice that it's only a 3% ping to high end builds vs minions.  The loss is lower against anything worth the crit anyway.

 

I know you didn't do much more than mention that it would implicitly buff pre-50 builds, @aethereal, but it's worth noting Scrapper's Strike (the other ATO) is only +2/+4% for the non-Superior version, as opposed to the Su version granting +3/+6%.  I would suggest under your change, also improving the baseline version of SS to +3/+6% (and +4/+8 for the Superior version).

 

I would honestly prefer even more of the power redistributed into Scrapper proper, but I can see how you are taking a more reasonable and acceptable approach.  Still, here's the numbers assuming your 50% uptime for a 35% Critical Strikes, 10/15 baseline crit chance, and keeping your 4/8 Scrapper's Strike:  10/15+4/8+35 = 49/58, 14/23 (average: 31.5, 40.5).

[skoryy]

I feel like this is designed to affect the really high end of min-maxers, not all of us are calculating our critical strike bonus windows to that fine of a detail.

 

If you really want to smooth out scrapper performance, give them something to do at lower levels than pray for RNGesus to gift them a critical.

[aethereal]

11 minutes ago, skoryy said:

I feel like this is designed to affect the really high end of min-maxers, not all of us are calculating our critical strike bonus windows to that fine of a detail.

 

If you really want to smooth out scrapper performance, give them something to do at lower levels than pray for RNGesus to gift them a critical.

 

I mean, this proposal makes it significantly more likely to get criticals at low levels.

 

You don't need to use math.  It just takes the performance of high-end scrappers and pushes some of it back down to lower-end scrappers.  The math is to show that it doesn't nerf high-end scrappers significantly, and that it doesn't go overboard on the buffs.

 

It's not, however, a reimagining of how scrapper crits would work.  It doesn't make them controllable like Stalkers.

[Sancerre]

This is interesting... i feel like it was just 2 weeks ago that someone was posting how 'useless' this crit proc ATO is... specifically from the perspective of energy melee (which you coincidentally picked to illustrate here).

 

i would personally tend to agree this ATO, in its current form, is incredibly potent.  and the reality is that you arent even highlighting the more fringe cases like slotting it into AoE powers.  As an example... Arc of Destruction in titan weapons has 16s recharge with 2.7 cast time (without momentum), making it incredibly powerful to proc critical strikes even against single targets (turns out to be 40-50% per target).  and then further when you combine it with AoE proc forcefeedback recharge (whirling smash, for example).  you can quite literally have 80%++ uptime on critical strikes against 4+ critters.

 

on face value, the ATO proc should be a moderate and 'lucky' boost whenever it occurs.  but... through 'clever' abuse of proc formulas, you can drastically scale up consistent DPS.  i think it is more of an issue with the proc system itself.

 

ultimately i dont know where i stand with this holistically.  i personally think scaling back the ATO itself and giving more raw power to the scrapper is fine, but others would probably complain that you are making the game even easier than it already is.  i am sure plenty of folks are just absolutely unaware of -HOW- to maintain incredibly high uptime on this ATO and dont imagine the ATO is as powerful as it is.  i suppose i am not sure if how you are re-allocating the numbers specifically is 'right', but it appears fine.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Sancerre

[krj12]

I'm against nerfs in general.  If you want to buff lower level scraps, fine, but no to any level 50 nerfs.

 

 

[aethereal]

24 minutes ago, krj12 said:

I'm against nerfs in general.  If you want to buff lower level scraps, fine, but no to any level 50 nerfs.

 

There's no way to move crits from the +50% ATO to the inherent or the other ATO without either giving top-end builds an unconditional buff or giving a nerf to some level of proc uptime.

[Rigged]

4 hours ago, krj12 said:

I'm against nerfs in general.  If you want to buff lower level scraps, fine, but no to any level 50 nerfs.

 

I think, if they merely moved part of the buff to lower levels, the fact that lvl 50s can benefit from that too will result in equal performance before changes. Scrappers are already top-tier (if not outright number one) at lvl 50 max IOs, so we don't want to buff that tier any more.