Dark Dark Epic Not too sure. Help please fine toon for best effect!!

[Surahza3]

Hello one and all. I am a fan of Dark / Dark anything and have one for most other archetypes. I put together this build but i know my choices aren't quite right to achieve maximum effect for this Dominator. The current build is this ...

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.5.6
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Rhamiel the Fallen: Level 50 Magic Dominator
Primary Power Set: Darkness Control
Secondary Power Set: Dark Assault
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Dark Grasp -- Dcm-Build%(A), Dcm-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(3), Dcm-Acc/Dmg(3), Dcm-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Dcm-Dmg/Rchg(5), SprAscoft-Rchg/+Dmg%(7)
Level 1: Dark Blast -- Dcm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Dcm-Acc/Dmg(7), Dcm-Dmg/EndRdx(9), Dcm-Dmg/Rchg(9), Dcm-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(11)
Level 2: Living Shadows -- EnfOpr-Acc/EndRdx(A)
Level 4: Gloom -- Apc-Dam%(A), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(13), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), Apc-Acc/Rchg(15)
Level 6: Fly -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 8: Possess -- CrcPrs-Conf%(A), CrcPrs-Conf/EndRdx(15), CrcPrs-Conf/Rchg(17), CrcPrs-Acc/Conf/Rchg(17), CrcPrs-Acc/Rchg(19)
Level 10: Night Fall -- Rgn-Knock%(A), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(21), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(23)
Level 12: Heart of Darkness -- SprAscoft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprAscoft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(23), SprAscoft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(25), SprAscoft-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg(25), SprAscoft-EndRdx/Rchg(27)
Level 14: Stealth -- ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(A)
Level 16: Hover -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def(27), RedFrt-EndRdx(29), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(29), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(31)
Level 18: Haunt -- ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(31), ExpRnf-Dmg/EndRdx(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33)
Level 20: Engulfing Darkness -- Erd-%Dam(A), Erd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Erd-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Mlt-Dmg/Rchg(34), Mlt-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 22: Gather Shadows -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 24: Fearsome Stare -- HO:Endo(A)
Level 26: Shadow Field -- UnbCns-Dam%(A), UnbCns-EndRdx/Hold(36), UnbCns-Hold/Rchg(36), UnbCns-Acc/Hold/Rchg(36), UnbCns-Acc/Rchg(37)
Level 28: Life Drain -- SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(37), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(37), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39)
Level 30: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Umbra Beast -- ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(39), ExpRnf-Dmg/EndRdx(40), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 35: Scorpion Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), RedFrt-Def(40), RedFrt-EndRdx(42), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(42), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(42), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 38: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(43), UnbGrd-Max HP%(43), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(45), UnbGrd-ResDam(45), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 41: Weave -- Rct-ResDam%(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46), Rct-Def(46), Rct-Def/EndRdx(46), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(48), Rct-Def/Rchg(48)
Level 44: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 47: Personal Force Field -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Evasive Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Domination 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- UnbLea-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(48), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(50)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-EndMod/Rchg(50), PrfShf-End%(50)
Level 6: Afterburner 
Level 50: Pyronic Core Final Judgement 
Level 50: Degenerative Radial Flawless Interface 
Level 50: Ageless Radial Epiphany 
Level 50: Assault Radial Embodiment 
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 
Level 50: Banished Pantheon Core Superior Ally 
------------

 

Again any advice would be great. Torn from Psi or Mace Epic and Incarnates I think i am picking more from a blaster pov.

[Voltak]

*** If you are going with that Confuse IO set, you REALLY want all 6 IOs of that set there.  ***

My preferred choices are 

1. Soul
2. Psi Mastery 
3. Cold

I recommend Soul and Psi Mastery way before Cold. 

Soul has Soul Drain and Dark embrace 

Trying to cap resistances to S/L (the most common dmg in the game) is very useful 

Psi mastery has Link Minds , which is a to hit buff and a defense buff and Psi mastery also has a resistance shield. 

I prefer you go for Cap Range defense, energy and neg energy defense.   Positional defenses cover more than just S/L defense. 

Dark/Dark has plenty of to hit debuffs to help out with your defenses. 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Voltak

[Uun]

Ice Mastery has Sleet, which is an awesome AoE debuff, and Ice Storm, which gives you some additional AoE damage. The S/L defense armor has the drawbacks Voltak mentions. That said, I went with Fire Mastery for my Dark/Dark. Rain of Fire is on a 60 sec recharge and can be used every spawn. S/L/F resist armor is pretty good. Rise of the Phoenix fits my play style.

[oedipus_tex]

I have never run a Dark character as an AV slayer, so if that is your goal I'm not the person to ask. For general content though Dark does well paired with a Resistance armor, because all the -ToHit only carries you to the soft cap. That usually means you can skimp on defense a bit because the -ToHit effectively caps you. Again, not as relevant in an AV fight.

 

To me, the Psi epic is the "starter pack" that makes the most sense for most Doms if you are new to the class, due to having two places to put LoTG and still getting a Resist armor. Ice is great if you want to be an AV slayer or play on teams that fight AVs a lot. 

 

Honorable mention goes to the Leviathan pool, for Water Spout/Hibernate/Resist Armor (Hibe is also part of the Ice pool). It's hard to explain with a pure numbers analysis why Water Spout is so good, it just is. The Spout is technically neither a single target blast or an AoE or a control, it's something between all that. For whatever reason I can't put my finger on exactly, it greatly speeds up my clear times--maybe at least partly explainable by the Spout tending to concentrate its damage on the stragglers so you don't expend clicks taking them out, and providing enough extra control that you don't need to expend you long recharges on small groups.

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[KaoticKarl]

This is my plan. It's relatively expensive, but no more than the OP's seems to be, and I did have to go Ice vs. Soul to hit goals here. This build hits soft cap to ranged, 45% to S/L/E/N with barrier, perma-hasten/domination without relying on FF procs, and does a decent amount of damage overall. I'm still in the process of leveling, but I tried it out on the test server, and was pretty happy with the overall results. The only thing that was a hindrance was the endurance usage over time, but not really enough to warrant a concern. Anyone with more experience with the AT is welcome to shred it up if it will help make it better, though. I'm open to suggestions:

 

Build:

Spoiler

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.6.0
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

DDI Dom2: Level 50 Magic Dominator
Primary Power Set: Darkness Control
Secondary Power Set: Dark Assault
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Ice Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Dark Grasp

• (A) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Hold
• (3) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Recharge
• (3) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge/Hold
• (5) Basilisk's Gaze - Endurance/Recharge/Hold
  

Level 1: Dark Blast

• (A) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage
• (5) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance
• (7) Thunderstrike - Damage/Recharge
• (7) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (9) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (9) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
  

Level 2: Smite

• (A) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
• (13) Mako's Bite - Damage/Endurance
• (15) Mako's Bite - Damage/Recharge
• (15) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
• (17) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
• (17) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
  

Level 4: Gloom

• (A) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage
• (19) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance
• (19) Thunderstrike - Damage/Recharge
• (21) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (21) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (23) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
  

Level 6: Possess

• (A) Coercive Persuasion  - Confused
• (23) Coercive Persuasion  - Confused/Recharge
• (25) Coercive Persuasion  - Accuracy/Confused/Recharge
• (25) Coercive Persuasion  - Accuracy/Recharge
• (27) Coercive Persuasion  - Confused/Endurance
• (27) Coercive Persuasion  - Contagious Confusion
  

Level 8: Stealth

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
  

Level 10: Fearsome Stare

• (A) Superior Ascendency of the Dominator - Accuracy/Control Duration
• (31) Superior Ascendency of the Dominator - Control Duration/Recharge
• (31) Superior Ascendency of the Dominator - Endurance/Recharge
• (31) Superior Ascendency of the Dominator - Accuracy/Control Duration/Endurance
• (33) Superior Ascendency of the Dominator - Accuracy/Control Duration/Endurance/Recharge
• (33) Superior Ascendency of the Dominator - Recharge/Chance for +Damage
  

Level 12: Heart of Darkness

• (A) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage
• (33) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (34) Superior Avalanche - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (34) Superior Avalanche - Damage/Endurance
• (36) Superior Avalanche - Recharge/Chance for Knockdown
  

Level 14: Hover

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
  

Level 16: Fly

• (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points)
• (36) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance
  

Level 18: Boxing

• (A) Accuracy IO
  

Level 20: Engulfing Darkness

• (A) Armageddon - Accuracy/Recharge
• (29) Armageddon - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (34) Armageddon - Damage/Endurance
• (37) Armageddon - Damage/Recharge
• (50) Armageddon - Chance for Fire Damage
• (50) Fury of the Gladiator - Chance for Res Debuff
  

Level 22: Tough

• (A) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
• (36) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
  

Level 24: Weave

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• (29) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
• (37) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
• (48) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Recharge
  

Level 26: Shadow Field

• (A) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Hold
• (37) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Recharge
• (39) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge/Hold
• (39) Basilisk's Gaze - Endurance/Recharge/Hold
  

Level 28: Life Drain

• (A) Apocalypse - Accuracy/Recharge
• (39) Apocalypse - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (40) Apocalypse - Damage/Endurance
• (40) Apocalypse - Damage/Recharge
• (40) Apocalypse - Chance of Damage(Negative)
• (42) Theft of Essence - Chance for +Endurance
  

Level 30: Hasten

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO
• (42) Recharge Reduction IO
  

Level 32: Umbra Beast

• (A) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Recharge
• (42) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Damage
• (43) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (43) Expedient Reinforcement - Endurance/Damage/Recharge
  

Level 35: Moon Beam

• (A) Sting of the Manticore - Accuracy/Damage
• (43) Sting of the Manticore - Accuracy/Interrupt/Range
• (45) Sting of the Manticore - Damage/Endurance
• (45) Sting of the Manticore - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
• (45) Sting of the Manticore - Chance of Damage(Toxic)
  

Level 38: Midnight Grasp

• (A) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Recharge
• (46) Hecatomb - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (46) Hecatomb - Damage/Endurance
• (46) Hecatomb - Damage/Recharge
• (48) Hecatomb - Chance of Damage(Negative)
  

Level 41: Sleet

• (A) Achilles' Heel - Chance for Res Debuff
  

Level 44: Frozen Armor

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• (48) Shield Wall - Defense
• (50) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)
  

Level 47: Gather Shadows

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO
  

Level 49: Grant Invisibility

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
  

Level 1: Domination 

Level 1: Brawl

• (A) Accuracy IO
  

Level 1: Sprint

• (A) Celerity - +Stealth
  

Level 2: Rest

• (A) Interrupt Reduction IO
  

Level 1: Swift

• (A) Run Speed IO
  

Level 1: Hurdle

• (A) Jumping IO
  

Level 1: Health

• (A) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance
• (11) Miracle - +Recovery
• (11) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
  

Level 1: Stamina

• (A) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
• (13) Performance Shifter - EndMod
  

Level 49: Quick Form 

Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon 
Level 50: Void Radial Final Judgement 
Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface 
Level 50: Banished Pantheon Radial Superior Ally 
Level 50: Barrier Core Epiphany 
Level 50: Assault Radial Embodiment 
Level 50: Freedom Phalanx Reserve 
Level 50: Portal Jockey 
Level 50: Task Force Commander 
Level 50: The Atlas Medallion 
Level 16: Afterburner 
------------

 

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Spoiler

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[Uun]

4 hours ago, KaoticKarl said:

This is my plan. It's relatively expensive, but no more than the OP's seems to be, and I did have to go Ice vs. Soul to hit goals here. This build hits soft cap to ranged, 45% to S/L/E/N with barrier, perma-hasten/domination without relying on FF procs, and does a decent amount of damage overall. I'm still in the process of leveling, but I tried it out on the test server, and was pretty happy with the overall results. The only thing that was a hindrance was the endurance usage over time, but not really enough to warrant a concern. Anyone with more experience with the AT is welcome to shred it up if it will help make it better, though. I'm open to suggestions:

 

Slot Fearsome Stare to enhance the -tohit, not the fear. Cloud Senses is a good choice. Move the Ascendency of the Dominator set to Heart of Darkness - the damage is minimal and the Avalanche set is kind of wasted there.

 

Another option to consider is Diamagnetic Core for Interface. This adds another 5% -tohit to all your powers.

[Voltak]

Check your private message box

I go over the build and provide a build for ya.  

 

[oedipus_tex]

Not a bad start for a build. Here are a few comments:

 

• I'd skip Midnight Grasp. It has lower DPA than Smite, and is actually barely more DPA than Gloom. 
• Consider slotting Life Drain as a heal instead as a blast. That its main feature. The actual DPA isn't that great. If you can fit both heal and damage, that's fine, to avoid losing a lot of DPS when you use it in longer fights, but I think the heal is more important. 
• I think skipping Haunt is a mistake. The Haunts do damage a bit below Fire Imps. 
• If you can somehow sneak them in, Hibernate and Ice Storm are worth taking. You'll probably also want Living Shadows.
  • To get these, I'd drop Grant Invis at a minimum and make up the lost Recharge elsewhere.
• For this particular build I don't think you actually need Tough/Weave. You can probably reach similar Defense numbers taking Manuevers and shifting some slots. Tough/Weave is more critical on Resistance armor builds to close the defense gap. 22% Slash/Lethal resist isn't terrible, but also to me not worth skipping better powers like Ice Storm or Hibernate.

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Voltak]

On 11/3/2021 at 11:42 PM, Surahza3 said:

Hello one and all. I am a fan of Dark / Dark anything and have one for most other archetypes. I put together this build but i know my choices aren't quite right to achieve maximum effect for this Dominator. The current build is this ...

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.5.6
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

 

Don't skip Midnight Grasp

Smite is better DPA but that in no way means you cannot have both.  Midnight Grasp is a heavy hitter when Smite is down, it is your biggest hitting attack. 

In none of my 3 builds do I skip Midnight Grasp

I have 3 builds on my dark/dark.  In two of my builds I do skip Haunt.   When I want to use Haunt, I use that specific build.

You can do great things without Haunt.   

You don't need living shadows 

If ever you do need an immobilize, it will be the single target immobilize ( more significant vs AVs) 

[KaoticKarl]

 

Thanks for looking the build over guys, and I appreciate the feedback from both you and Tex. I should have mentioned that I am a mostly solo player, with the very occasional teaming up for TFs and the like, so I mostly build with that in mind. On normal radios, I will tag confusion on a few mobs first, then come in with the damage afterwards.

 

On 11/6/2021 at 4:03 PM, Uun said:

 

Slot Fearsome Stare to enhance the -tohit, not the fear. Cloud Senses is a good choice. Move the Ascendency of the Dominator set to Heart of Darkness - the damage is minimal and the Avalanche set is kind of wasted there.

 

Another option to consider is Diamagnetic Core for Interface. This adds another 5% -tohit to all your powers.

 

Avalanche was mainly for the 2.5% to S/L defense more so than the damage, plus the possible knockdown for any not stunned. Moved the set as you'd suggested though, but I used 5 Siphon insight instead of cloud senses as replacement to keep the defense hovering around 40% for barrier to fill in the last bit. Switched to diamagnetic as well. Great ideas!

 

On 11/8/2021 at 5:45 PM, oedipus_tex said:

Not a bad start for a build. Here are a few comments:

 

• I'd skip Midnight Grasp. It has lower DPA than Smite, and is actually barely more DPA than Gloom. 
• Consider slotting Life Drain as a heal instead as a blast. That its main feature. The actual DPA isn't that great. If you can fit both heal and damage, that's fine, to avoid losing a lot of DPS when you use it in longer fights, but I think the heal is more important. 
• I think skipping Haunt is a mistake. The Haunts do damage a bit below Fire Imps. 
• If you can somehow sneak them in, Hibernate and Ice Storm are worth taking. You'll probably also want Living Shadows.
  • To get these, I'd drop Grant Invis at a minimum and make up the lost Recharge elsewhere.
• For this particular build I don't think you actually need Tough/Weave. You can probably reach similar Defense numbers taking Maneuvers and shifting some slots. Tough/Weave is more critical on Resistance armor builds to close the defense gap. 22% Slash/Lethal resist isn't terrible, but also to me not worth skipping better powers like Ice Storm or Hibernate.

 

 

While I like having MG as a finisher move, I honestly tried every way I could think of to switch it with Haunt (I do like that power), while still keeping the goals on defense/perma-hasten/dominate. I just couldn't get it to work out, plus I couldn't see how I could drop T/W and just slot Maneuvers while keeping the defense up there, as Tough is the only spot I can slot in the two unique IOs. Did take the advice on Life Drain though. Switched it to 5 Panacea, which boosts the heal portion to double what was before, while also keeping most of the global recharge I would be missing with Apoc. 

 

Hoping I don't ever need Hibernate, but if I take it and one-slot it with the PM abs proc it would probably be good to have as an OS! button. Only issue is that would drop me out of perma-hasten to 120.9. Doubt it would cause much rift if I did this, but not entirely sure, so is being just outside perma all that noticeable? As for IS, not a big fan of storms - I have an Ice Corruptor that uses it, just to watch all the mobs scatter from it. I'm guessing the goal would be to fire off LS > Sleet > IS, in order keep mobs in the patch, but it just sounds clunky with those cast times. Plus, that's a bit of damage I might take while this is all going on, since the mobs are just immobilized. On a team, sure.. but solo might be ouch.

 

Ok, so on to round two of the build. Let me know what you guys think 😄

 

Spoiler

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Edited November 20, 2021 by KaoticKarl
Wrong build, derp

[KaoticKarl]

Ok, after this last post, I fiddled around a bit more, and I think I've found a winner for me. Absolutely fun to play, and does well with crowds or single targets. Very survivable, and overall good damage. Thanks again for the input guys, it truly helped!

 

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[oedipus_tex]

19 hours ago, Voltak said:

Don't skip Midnight Grasp

Smite is better DPA but that in no way means you cannot have both.  Midnight Grasp is a heavy hitter when Smite is down, it is your biggest hitting attack. 

In none of my 3 builds do I skip Midnight Grasp

 

 

Are you getting good numbers out of Midnight Grasp because of a proc? Out of the box it has lower DPA than Gloom:

 

 

 

It does have longer recharge, so I suppose it procs better and might pull ahead.  Smite > Gloom > MoonBeam > AoE Blast isn't a full attack chain, but TBH I've rarely worried about a full attack chain on a Dom, just because so many clicks come in between attacks. If you're specifically AV hunting I can see why it may matter more.

 

You tend to fight a lot of AVs which is why I think you're not as big a fan of Haunt as I am. I'd take Haunt over an extra attack from the Assault set in most cases, but that's knowing that the fights I tend to get in they tend to last a while and do a ton of damage for the minimal investment in animation time involved. I do skip Gremlins on Electric Control for being similarly squishy, so if your Haunts are just getting slammed in the first few seconds I can see why you'd want to skip them.

Edited November 21, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Voltak]

2 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Are you getting good numbers out of Midnight Grasp because of a proc? Out of the box it has lower DPA than Gloom:

 

 

 

It does have longer recharge, so I suppose it procs better and might pull ahead.  Smite > Gloom > MoonBeam > AoE Blast isn't a full attack chain, but TBH I've rarely worried about a full attack chain on a Dom, just because so many clicks come in between attacks. If you're specifically AV hunting I can see why it may matter more.

 

You tend to fight a lot of AVs which is why I think you're not as big a fan of Haunt as I am. I'd take Haunt over an extra attack from the Assault set in most cases, but that's knowing that the fights I tend to get in they tend to last a while and do a ton of damage for the minimal investment in animation time involved. I do skip Gremlins on Electric Control for being similarly squishy, so if your Haunts are just getting slammed in the first few seconds I can see why you'd want to skip them.

Brother, 

An attack chain is not two powers only.   Come on, my man.  You can't make an attack chain with just gloom and smite.   
Also Mid G is an excellent place for procs 

Don't skip it.  

Chain -  MG, Smite, Gloom, ** then others 

Those charts should be used as reference but in practice things are a bit different. 

As a Dark/Dark player (since it was released on test server back in live server days) , I would never recommend anyone skipping this power. 

****

Also, I never said I was not a fan of Haunt.   I never said I don't like it either. 

I said I have 3 builds.  Not all builds have same powers, nor are they identical, otherwise, there's no point in 3 builds. 

One of my builds does use Haunt.  

Some times other things were more fitting or more important to me in a specific build and in what I wanted to do according to the way I was going to do them. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Voltak

[oedipus_tex]

57 minutes ago, Voltak said:

Brother, 

An attack chain is not two powers only.   Come on, my man.  You can't make an attack chain with just gloom and smite.   

 

 

Probably not, but:

 

Gloom > Smite > MoonBeam > quick animating AoE Blast > Sleet/whatever/Life Drain > control power > whatever > whatever is probably closer to what I actually end up doing on a Dominator than cycling a rehearsed attack chain. I have very rarely ended up in situations where a true attack chain really mattered TBH. Mostly it's been about what power is best in the moment. 

 

You solo AVs, which is fine. I don't personally have the patience. Soloing an AV requires a very specific kind of build and mindset, and I respect that. The current Dark/Dark meta is an offshoot of the legacy Mind Control soloist Dominator that's been around since live. It's a niche that just never interested me, just like the Illusion Control variety never piqued my interest either. I respect what those builds accomplish without wanting to pursue it myself.

 

Overall, I don't find attack chains as relevant for Dominators as other ATs, It's more a mix of whatever I need to click in that second to keep going. The build is already super tight, so being able to drop something that is mostly redundant is helpful. The Assault sets offer a lot of redundant damage dealing powers, and trimming something off even at a minor net loss of DPS is often attractive to me.

[Voltak]

15 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Probably not, but:

 

Gloom > Smite > MoonBeam > quick animating AoE Blast > Sleet/whatever/Life Drain > control power > whatever > whatever is probably closer to what I actually end up doing on a Dominator than cycling a rehearsed attack chain. I have very rarely ended up in situations where a true attack chain really mattered TBH. Mostly it's been about what power is best in the moment. 

 

You solo AVs, which is fine. I don't personally have the patience. Soloing an AV requires a very specific kind of build and mindset, and I respect that. The current Dark/Dark meta is an offshoot of the legacy Mind Control soloist Dominator that's been around since live. It's a niche that just never interested me, just like the Illusion Control variety never piqued my interest either. I respect what those builds accomplish without wanting to pursue it myself.

 

Overall, I don't find attack chains as relevant for Dominators as other ATs, It's more a mix of whatever I need to click in that second to keep going. The build is already super tight, so being able to drop something that is mostly redundant is helpful. The Assault sets offer a lot of redundant damage dealing powers, and trimming something off even at a minor net loss of DPS is often attractive to me.

You are losing me, my friend.  You making the case to use only bigger DPA.
Look at the chart you showed me, MG is bigger dmg than Moonbeam. 

So, again, my chain starts with MG (proc) , Smite , Gloom

The only AoE(s) I consider using is Engulfing Darkness or Dark Obliteration with EG being the main AoE if I take only one. 

In my videos I show exactly how it is done 

I dont only solo AVs.  
I do more than just that.  Soloing task forces is never about killing AVs only. 

Watch me clear maps full of carnies 54 x8 , with NO inspirations too.  

Again, I also use 3 different builds, not one

Even to kill AVs, I have more than one build to do it with 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Voltak

[EnjoyTheJourney]

The ATO +dmg proc can be fairly reliably double-stacked when using a single target chain for dark assault, if it's in midnight grasp (MG). Sometimes it's one stack, sometimes it's three stacks. At an average of two stacks the ATO +dmg proc adds 40% damage to all attacks. That's a mini-build up level of bonus damage switched on all the time whenever MG is often being used. That's a good buff. 

 

If you math it out you'll realize not taking midnight grasp is a loss to overall DPS, even when just thinking about the +damage ATO. Given that other procs can also be put into MG then its value becomes even more clear. 

 

The ATO +damage proc can't be put into a lot of dom attack powers (unfortunately), so it makes sense that its value can fly under the radar. But, it certainly shows its potential in the assault set powers in which it can be placed and in which it can trigger often (midnight grasp for dark assault and seismic smash for earth assault, as two examples). 

Edited November 21, 2021 by EnjoyTheJourney

[oedipus_tex]

8 hours ago, Voltak said:

You are losing me, my friend.  You making the case to use only bigger DPA.
Look at the chart you showed me, MG is bigger dmg than Moonbeam. 

 

 

Moonbeam actually has the highest DPA in the set. The chart shows the out of combat snipe animation speed, not the faster in combat speed. I don't have the numbers for fast snipe, but they are astronomical.

 

 

7 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

The ATO +damage proc can't be put into a lot of dom attack powers (unfortunately), so it makes sense that its value can fly under the radar. But, it certainly shows its potential in the assault set powers in which it can be placed and in which it can trigger often (midnight grasp for dark assault and seismic smash for earth assault, as two examples). 

 

I agree that's a good place to put it if it works for the build. I usually put it in the fastest recharging AoE control power, but Midnight Grasp is a good spot for it. Good call on that.

 

Part of the reason I still feel a strong draw to skip Midnight Grasp is simply where it happens to fall in the build--level 38. The ability to drop it selectively is part of the draw of Dark Assault to me. You can't get away with that with most of the other Assault sets.

 

Speaking on Dark/Dark builds specifically for a second, part of this goes back to philosophical differences on whether Heart of Darkness should be treated as a proc bomb or a control power. I personally like to slot HoD with x6 of the ATO, which includes the +damage proc. That provides +10 Recharge and +5 Ranged defense for the build, and the +damage proc will fire reliably against groups. The proc bomb approach is fine, but I don't personally like the loss of Stun time, recharge, and that sweet +5 Ranged Defense. (It also does make me wish the Dominator ATOs were designed better).

 

We were talking about an Ice/Dark build earlier. On that one specifically I would feel very pressured on a defensive build to drop Midnight Grasp so I could take 5 powers out of the Psi APP: Indom Will, Resist Armor, Mind Link, Psinado and World of Confusion. The only other power its possible to drop and take 5 powers out of the APPs is Moonbeam, which IMO should never be skipped. Long story short, if you can justify Midnight Grasp with procs for sure take it, but out of the box it's not a huge trade up in damage like you'd expect a T9 melee attack to be. The animation is clunky (2.07) and a Dominator has so many good potential powers choices that being able to drop a redundant attack power even at a small loss of attack chain is often lucrative.

Edited November 21, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[EnjoyTheJourney]

9 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Moonbeam actually has the highest DPA in the set. The chart shows the out of combat snipe animation speed, not the faster in combat speed. I don't have the numbers for fast snipe, but they are astronomical.

...

Mids may or may not have the perfect numbers. But, if you click on the "quickform" button, so Mids will show the "in battle" snipe damage and cast time, and also set the options to "use arcanatime" for cast times, then you can calculate the DPA from there.

 

The "quickform" of moonbeam does indeed offer the highest DPA of all dark assault powers. But, it's available noticeably less often than gloom and smite, which are the real bread and butter single target powers of the dark assault set. Midnight grasp and moonbeam each play distinctive roles, with snipe adding some burst damage when it's up and midnight grasp cc'ing mobs and buffing itself and all the other attack powers in a noticeable way (when it has the +damage ATO slotted into it).  

[oedipus_tex]

23 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Mids may or may not have the perfect numbers. But, if you click on the "quickform" button, so Mids will show the "in battle" snipe damage and cast time, and also set the options to "use arcanatime" for cast times, then you can calculate the DPA from there.

 

The "quickform" of moonbeam does indeed offer the highest DPA of all dark assault powers. But, it's available noticeably less often than gloom and smite, which are the real bread and butter single target powers of the dark assault set. Midnight grasp and moonbeam each play distinctive roles, with snipe adding some burst damage when it's up and midnight grasp cc'ing mobs and buffing itself and all the other attack powers in a noticeable way (when it has the +damage ATO slotted into it).  

 

 

Gloom and Smite for sure. Each of them have a base Recharge of 8, which gives them a theoretical "best possible" recharge of 2, with 3 seconds probably being close to the final number for an end game build (it can be hard to estimate exactly because so many builds have flexible recharge between +100% recharge procs and Ageless Destiny). Both are very fast attacks, with an incredibly reactive 0.97 attack animation on Smite, and a fast 1.1 on Gloom, which doesn't leave a lot of time to do something else. Your first cycle is probably Moonbeam, then onto something else. Somewhere in here you're also casting Life Drain, control powers, and so on.

 

Using MG as a proc delivery system for the +Dam ATO proc is clever, and a good option for people who fight a lot of single targets. The recharge on it means the proc fires pretty reliably versus a single target. I tend to prefer it in my spammable AoE Control, but MG has advantages if you are wailing on a single enemy. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Voltak]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Moonbeam actually has the highest DPA in the set. The chart shows the out of combat snipe animation speed, not the faster in combat speed. I don't have the numbers for fast snipe, but they are astronomical.

 

 

 

I agree that's a good place to put it if it works for the build. I usually put it in the fastest recharging AoE control power, but Midnight Grasp is a good spot for it. Good call on that.

 

Part of the reason I still feel a strong draw to skip Midnight Grasp is simply where it happens to fall in the build--level 38. The ability to drop it selectively is part of the draw of Dark Assault to me. You can't get away with that with most of the other Assault sets.

 

Speaking on Dark/Dark builds specifically for a second, part of this goes back to philosophical differences on whether Heart of Darkness should be treated as a proc bomb or a control power. I personally like to slot HoD with x6 of the ATO, which includes the +damage proc. That provides +10 Recharge and +5 Ranged defense for the build, and the +damage proc will fire reliably against groups. The proc bomb approach is fine, but I don't personally like the loss of Stun time, recharge, and that sweet +5 Ranged Defense. (It also does make me wish the Dominator ATOs were designed better).

 

We were talking about an Ice/Dark build earlier. On that one specifically I would feel very pressured on a defensive build to drop Midnight Grasp so I could take 5 powers out of the Psi APP: Indom Will, Resist Armor, Mind Link, Psinado and World of Confusion. The only other power its possible to drop and take 5 powers out of the APPs is Moonbeam, which IMO should never be skipped. Long story short, if you can justify Midnight Grasp with procs for sure take it, but out of the box it's not a huge trade up in damage like you'd expect a T9 melee attack to be. The animation is clunky (2.07) and a Dominator has so many good potential powers choices that being able to drop a redundant attack power even at a small loss of attack chain is often lucrative.

I know Moonbeam insta snipe is the hardest DPA.   But you do want that MG.  That chart has no procs in the formulas.
MG is a very hard hitter.  That chart does not mean all of that when procs are in the game.
Those 4 attacks are the best attacks in the set. 

Did you see my pylon times ?   

I doubt Dark Assault (using secondary only) will beat that time without using MG and placing the proc there (stacking 3 times ) 

You can still have have HoD with procs and still equip MG.  
Having one does not exclude the other. 

Both of them will get used. 

Don't skip MG, brother. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Voltak

[oedipus_tex]

10 minutes ago, Voltak said:

Did you see my pylon times ?   
 

 

 

I did not look at your pylon times but that tracks. A pylon is an example of a fight versus a single target, so a build that focuses on that will of course have better pylon times. Pylon times were developed for straight DPS classes. They will not tell you, for example, that your AoE controls are underslotted, or that you missed a chance for extra utility for a minor bonus to how fast you beat a pylon.

[Voltak]

3 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

I did not look at your pylon times but that tracks. A pylon is an example of a fight versus a single target, so a build that focuses on that will of course have better pylon times. Pylon times were developed for straight DPS classes. They will not tell you, for example, that your AoE controls are underslotted, or that you missed a chance for extra utility for a minor bonus to how fast you beat a pylon.

None of my builds are focused on single targets. 
All my builds are for AoE and ST.  I have to be good at both

I am good at both ST and AoE on all 3 builds. 
All 3 builds have MG 

All 3 builds were tested in real game play.  They perform very well. 

My build for pylon times is a totally different build that I don't use at all except for testing dark assault only 
 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Voltak

[oedipus_tex]

1 minute ago, Voltak said:

None of my builds are focused on single targets. 
All my builds are for AoE and ST.  I have to be good at both

I am good at both ST and AoE on all 3 builds. 
All 3 builds have MG 

My build for pylon times is a totally different build that I don't use at all except for testing dark assault only 
 

 

 

What I am saying is that if pylon times are the measurement, the only APP that makes sense is the Ice APP, for Sleet. Sleet will demonstrably increase your pylon time because it meets the specific nature of the challenge. The pylon test can't show you the benefit of the Psi Defense in the Psi APP, or the endurance sink in Power Sink, etc. 

 

By all means take MG if you can justify it. But also skip it if you can't justify it. There are plenty of great powers available and that particular one is replaceable depending on where you need to put the ATO set.

[Voltak]

13 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

What I am saying is that if pylon times are the measurement, the only APP that makes sense is the Ice APP, for Sleet. Sleet will demonstrably increase your pylon time because it meets the specific nature of the challenge. The pylon test can't show you the benefit of the Psi Defense in the Psi APP, or the endurance sink in Power Sink, etc. 

 

By all means take MG if you can justify it. But also skip it if you can't justify it. There are plenty of great powers available and that particular one is replaceable depending on where you need to put the ATO set.

I am not saying it is the measurement, as in the only measurement. I am not saying that. 

I am saying that MG proves to be a great part of the repertoire for the sakes of sheer dmg. 

** take a look at my psi build.  It has MG in it.  
It's the same build I cleared Carnies solo, no inspirations, 54 8 and in addition I killed the AV at the end. 


Again, my builds are good in AoE and ST.  They are good thanks to the inclusion of Gloom, Smite, MG and Moonbeam.  Only one build of mine does not have Smith because I picked something else. 

Even in that case MG carries me on thanks to procs 

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Voltak

[oedipus_tex]

1 minute ago, Voltak said:

I am not saying it is the measurement, as in the only measurement. I am not saying that. 

I am saying that MG proves to be a great part of the repertoire for the sakes of sheer dmg. 

Again, my builds are good in AoE and ST.  They are good thanks to the inclusion of Gloom, Smite, MG and Moonbeam.  Only one build of mine does not have Smith because I picked something else. 

Even in that case MG carries me on thanks to procs 

 

 

 

Something I hope we can agree on is that what makes City of Heroes such an interesting game is that we can have these sorts of debates about best in slotting.

 

Your build is great. It's particularly optimized for the synergy between Dark Control and Dark Assault and that's fantastic.

 

In general, on most builds? That ATO proc probably needs to go in a 6 slot configuration in a control power to take advantage of +5 Ranged defense. I wish the ATOs were designed like other archetypes and fit into attack powers cleanly, but we're left with what we're given here. 

 

Keep in mind doing this doesn't mean you aren't getting the +Damage proc. It means you are getting the proc from the AoE control power you're spamming anyway. Against large groups you're guaranteed to trigger the proc, and depending on the power you put it in, can stack it. It's a different mindset than putting it in a single target melee attack for sure. But it's part of the same general principal that the proc should go into a power that you're likely to cycle. If that's an upclose melee attack and you can justify losing the set bonuses to obtain that, that's great. I'm not as energized about that for non-Dark/Dark builds.

 

Of course you wouldn't want the ATO proc in an AoE power if you're focusing on AVs or pylons. If that's your focus MG makes a lot more sense, assuming you can withstand melee range with the enemy (that may be a whole other topic).