Best and Worst Archetypes and Builds for iTrials and the New Challenge Settings

[oedipus_tex]

Hey all, I've been thinking about iTrials and the new "Hard mode" task force difficulty. These pieces of content throw unique challenges at the player that make builds, archetypes, and sets that don't normally shine a lot more attractive, or encourage a different build strategy.

 

I'll start by admitting that I don't have any comprehension of the ingredients of an iTrial archviillain fight. I know these enemies have a lottttt of hit points, but beyond that am completely in the dark about whether -Resist or -Regen are important to bring, and how much of it. 

 

I can also squarely admit that as a primary Dominator and Controller player, I don't have any toon in regular rotation who can withstand heavy engagement with iTrials packs without significant support, except for characters who can discretely engage, e.g. Mind, Dark and Electric characters using non-notify Confusion attacks. If I'm being completely honest, my Dominators in particular feel like the fifth wheel (maybe the 25th wheel?) during a lot of iContent, because of their inability to withstand attacks, vulnerability when knocked out of Domination mode by death, and point blank nature of their highest damage powers. However, I'm also unclear on how much powers like Drain Psyche (-500% Regen) and Sleet (Resist debuff) contribute and whether that is a significant contribution.

 

A build I think that is surprisingly good, and much more effective than the core game, is the Power Boost variety of Force Field. Force Field endures many criticisms, which I won't rehash here. But Force Field has a very fast recharging high strength shield that can be doubled in strength by Power Boost. The key here is the "fast recharging" part I think--useful because death still is going to happen in iTrials. This player's role is to reapply shields at every Power Boost interval so that any revived players and any newly summoned pets get an update. The shields last 4 minutes, which is probably long enough to carry through long portions of events where the team is forced to separate. As great as stuff like Farsight is, I have more faith in Power Boosted Force Fields because they don't force a team gather, and are more available for refresh at a given moment, such as seconds after a team regather, mass resurrection, or summoning of Lore pets. 

 

Cold Domination of course has a similar shield, which it can't Power Boost, and a slew of debuffs. I'm very unclear on how useful or necessary these debuffs are in this content. Are the -Resist, -Regen, and -Damage doing much? It can be hard to get a read.

 

I do get the feeling, adjacently, that Thermal Radiation is incredible for this particular content, but have no evidence at all to back that up. 

 

I can't comment at all about melee characters. I have one Stalker at 50 total, and he's not built well for this material. Can he be? Should he be?

 

Blasters with high ranged DPS seem like they'd be highly desirable for this content, but I've never built one for it or seen a build specifically tailored with it in mind. I get the impression what matters here is sky high DPS but again am unclear on what assumptions should be made about the overall build.

 

Your thoughts?  

Edited March 19, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[Apparition]

Debuffs are extremely critical on iTrials and hard mode content.  You honestly can't do them without it.

 

Blasters, Tankers, Defenders, Corruptors, Dominators, Scrappers, Stalkers, and Masterminds are the best ATs for iTrials and hard mode content.  Brutes, Controllers, and Sentinels are not desired.

 

I say this as someone who primarily played Force Field back on live and regularly plays a Force Field character today... Force Field is largely useless on iTrials and hard mode content.  It provides no debuffs (as I said, debuffs are critical), and the +def and mez protection it provides is superfluous thanks to all of the Time, Cold, and Dark Miasma characters running around, not to mention all of the Barriers and Clarion Destinies people are packing.  The power set doesn't bring anything of value.

 

Support sets that do bring value = Cold Domination, Trick Arrow, Electrical Affinity, Kinetics, Poison, Sonic Resonance, and Thermal Manipulation.  Cold, Trick Arrow, Poison, Sonic Resonance, and Thermal Manipulation for the outstanding debuffs.  Electrical Affinity for the healing and mez protection.  Kinetics for... well... Kinetics.

 

Edit: Before someone starts in on my ranking Masterminds highly... Mastermind pets largely ignore ground patches like the pink in the Minds of Mayhem Trial.  This allows the henchmen to continue damaging, while the Mastermind itself keeps moving.  Granted, the henchmen don't do as much damage as they should thanks to the level disparity between henchmen and Mastermind, but something is better than nothing.

Edited March 19, 2022 by Apparition

[oedipus_tex]

6 minutes ago, Apparition said:

I say this as someone who primarily played Force Field back on live and regularly plays a Force Field character today... Force Field is largely useless on iTrials and hard mode content.  It provides no debuffs (as I said, debuffs are critical), and the +def and mez protection it provides is superfluous thanks to all of the Time, Cold, and Dark Miasma characters running around, not to mention all of the Barriers and Clarion Destinies people are packing.  The power set doesn't bring anything of value.

 

 

On this point I'm going to gently disagree. Force Field with Power Boost has reliable double strength shields. On a Defender its around +38 Defense for 4 minutes. I think probably the strongest members of the team don't need that level of strength, but I would be floored if most members of a 24 man league wouldn't benefit from it. It shields the players and also their pets, is constantly available. I've played Time a lot and respect it for its strengths, but this is one of the rare cases where I think the FF'er takes it. I can really feel the difference when there's a strong Force Fielder around versus not, especially on weaker toons who are just entering iTrials for the first time. Of course there's a dark possibility here that keeping those weaker characters alive doesn't contribute as much in the overall as just getting some heavy dps and debuffing from a handful of team members who carry the event.

 

It's interesting that you mention Electric Affinity. That's a set I'd personally rather not bring to an iTrial, due to the way the Electric buff tails off. That could be misperception on my part on how these powers work. With so many players and pets running around an iTrial I imagine the target caps get hit quickly. Most other buff sets don't have target caps that you're likely to hit.

 

Like I mentioned before, I'm still unclear on exactly how debuffs work or how much you actually need. I do have an end game Cold/Sonic Defender built specifically as a debuff monster, but measuring how much that contributes to an iTrial is hard to do. For one thing, the character is very vulnerable to death and doesn't have an easy time approaching enemies. He can throw weight into AV fights from a distance of course. 

 

IIRC there's no cap on how much -Resist you can apply to an enemy, but I'm also not sure how much of the character's -Resist is actually applying to enemies in that content.

 

What is the -Regen cap? I assume it's only "worth" having a few sources of -Regen and everything after that is beyond the cap. Same thing for -Damage. Like, these two seem like a case where having none of it will really slow you down, but having a ton of it won't really speed you up or aid survivability. But again am unsure of how the numbers shake out in reality. 

[Frozen Burn]

I'd like to also add in that you shouldn't be dying that much for iTrials, unless you're a newbie 50 - and even then, only upon occasion.  Once you get your incarnate abilities and level shifts, those greatly increase your survivability.  If you're faceplanting a lot, then you should look at your builds and try to find powers, sets, and bonuses to get you more defenses and damage mitigation.  Also look at your playstyle - are you kiting or just standing still?  Are you being aware of your surroundings? Are you standing in that blue or pick patch that does high DoT?  Are you away from the healing "bubble" from all the healers auto-spamming their auras?  and etc.

 

I play iTrials regularly and with all ATs - from squishie dominators / trollers to Tanks and Brutes - and especially, Blasters (my fav AT)!  I have no issues surviving with any of them at range or in melee.  So ranged preference over melee doesn't matter.  In fact, most of my blasters are melee blasters as many of my best attacks are melee high damage powers - so I build them to be able to withstand being in melee range, even for AVs and GMs (pre-incarnate).  I do similar with my Doms, Controllers, Defenders, Corruptors - any "squishie" that needs to be in melee - again, all pre-incarnate so that when I do become incarnate, those abilities are added on top and not just to fill in "holes." 

 

[oedipus_tex]

22 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

I'd like to also add in that you shouldn't be dying that much for iTrials, unless you're a newbie 50 - and even then, only upon occasion.

 

 

I can't say I share this experience. It could be the types of characters I play, but face planting during iTrials is a regular event for me. Based on what goes on in the League window I don't think I'm alone. I don't have any character in my rotation who can tank through enemies with 59 base ToHit, even with IOs and controls. There's a portion of the BAF  Lambda trial where the team splits up and goes hunting for enemy packs; the only way I've ever made it through that is to use non-aggroing powers. Characters who lack Stealth I won't bring on that trial, or if I do, they avoid the hall of death portion (there's very little I can contribute to it to be honest, usually someone else carries it). If I do make it to the end of an iTrial untouched, its usually because I didn't directly engage too many enemies. Especially on any toon who hasn't unlocked the second two level shifts; that's a blood bath.

Edited March 19, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[Frozen Burn]

6 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

On this point I'm going to gently disagree. Force Field with Power Boost has reliable double strength shields. On a Defender its around +38 Defense for 4 minutes. I think probably the strongest members of the team don't need that level of strength, but I would be floored if most members of a 24 man league wouldn't benefit from it. It shields the players and also their pets, is constantly available. I've played Time a lot and respect it for its strengths, but this is one of the rare cases where I think the FF'er takes it. I can really feel the difference when there's a strong Force Fielder around versus not, especially on weaker toons who are just entering iTrials for the first time. Of course there's a dark possibility here that keeping those weaker characters alive doesn't contribute as much in the overall as just getting some heavy dps and debuffing from a handful of team members who carry the event.

 

@Apparition is correct here.  FF - even power boosted - is largely not needed for the iTrials and especially in Hard Mode content where you have a limited number of roles to fill.  That +Def is not as useful since the powerset provides no debuffs (sparking big dabates on what to do with the set itself which can be talked about in other threads).  

 

Yes, Power Boosted FF Shields are good... no denying it.  But it only provides a LITTLE use on iTrials to help newbie 50s, as you stated.  But largely and overall, it's not that desired because there are generally a LOT of people who take Barrier that recharges every 2 mins and it HARD caps your Def and Resists - and even though it slowly wanes over the 2 mins, there are enough Barriers being cast that they overlap and the buffs stays stronger and longer overall. 

 

In addition, many people build their squishie toons to have high enough soft capped defense (pre-incarnate) to survive in the iTrial realm.  So that even further limits the need for FF.

 

I actually hate typing those words!  One of my fav toons is a FF/Water Defender with Power Boost.  I love that toon!!  And yes, just like you, I can feel a difference when my FF'er is on a team and doing its thing - but I only feel that in normal content.  When I play it in an iTrial, I feel mostly useless because the shields aren't really needed and my blasts don't do as much damage as a Blaster. 

[Snarky]

44 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Debuffs are extremely critical on iTrials and hard mode content.  You honestly can't do them without it.

 

Blasters, Tankers, Defenders, Corruptors, Dominators, Scrappers, Stalkers, and Masterminds are the best ATs for iTrials and hard mode content.  Brutes, Controllers, and Sentinels are not desired.

 

Triggered.  Bound to happen in this thread.  But still, really low hanging fruit.  Saying Tankers and Scrappers are desired and Brutes are not desired?  Wow.

 

Any type of in depth analysis might have mitigated this.  But.. . squanto was offered.

 

Sooooooo  This guy thinks a Fire/Fire Tank or a Kinetic Melee Regen Scrapper would be better than any Brute on a Incarnate Trial.  After all, any Tank or Scrapper is desired.  Any Brute is not desired.

 

 

[StriderIV]

I’d love to hear some specific powerset combos on certain archetypes that people would love on their iTrial team! Currently leveling a Rad/SS Tanker I feel that could be great. Latest project is an Ice/Dark Corruptor I just started last night. I feel it’ll have a good mix of being survivable mixed with damage and debuffs for iTrials.

 

I have a Storm/Water Defender I recently leveled that I LOVE, but I’m not sure it brings the debuffs necessary for an iTrail. Some -res and some other mitigation.

[StriderIV]

3 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Triggered.  Bound to happen in this thread.  But still, really low hanging fruit.  Saying Tankers and Scrappers are desired and Brutes are not desired?  Wow.

 

Any type of in depth analysis might have mitigated this.  But.. . squanto was offered.

 

Sooooooo  This guy thinks a Fire/Fire Tank or a Kinetic Melee Regen Scrapper would be better than any Brute on a Incarnate Trial.  After all, any Tank or Scrapper is desired.  Any Brute is not desired.

 

 

This came off a bit…. Snarky.

 

See what I did there? 😉

 

Also, we all know KM/Regen Scrap is the OP of OP’s.

[Snarky]

In truth (in my very slanted opinion) it is most preferable to have a TON of Blasters and Corruptors.  For certain trials and badge attempts very specific AT/Powersets are almost necessary (TPN outside crowd control, etc) Then a Tank and a couple helers.  To break it down DPS / DPS-Debuff / Heal / Tank.  In a >>>>>  heavy left to light right mix.  Fast results achieved.  But I know an SG that does the Really Hard Way Badge every Saturday and ANYBODY is welcome, any AT.  Must be 50+3, fully built, tier 3-4 in all incarnates, and certain pets and Destinies preferred.  But the AT/Powersets?  You choose to run that Force Field MM or KM/Regen Scrapper?  You crazy gamer, join us!

[Shred Monkey]

it think it really depends.  I mean, for example if you have a defender, then you probably need 2 more defenders to keep the first one from dying all the time.

 

There's a few situations where it's just annoying if everyone is melee and nobody is ranged... but any group of 8 warm bodies with full builds should be fine.  Actually 4 warm bodies is probably enough, the other 4 can be look warm.

[oedipus_tex]

6 minutes ago, Snarky said:

In truth (in my very slanted opinion) it is most preferable to have a TON of Blasters and Corruptors.  For certain trials and badge attempts very specific AT/Powersets are almost necessary (TPN outside crowd control, etc) Then a Tank and a couple helers.  To break it down DPS / DPS-Debuff / Heal / Tank.  In a >>>>>  heavy left to light right mix.  Fast results achieved.  But I know an SG that does the Really Hard Way Badge every Saturday and ANYBODY is welcome, any AT.  Must be 50+3, fully built, tier 3-4 in all incarnates, and certain pets and Destinies preferred.  But the AT/Powersets?  You choose to run that Force Field MM or KM/Regen Scrapper?  You crazy gamer, join us!

 

 

Yeah this is kinda the direction I was leaning. Blaster and Corruptor being extremely valuable, along with certain kinds of high damage melee characters. I listed Thermal Radiation because of its unique sweet spot of being a Resistance buffer, healer, and AV debuffer. But in truth don't understand how those debuffs apply in reality.

 

I also am definitely beginning to see a split in the comments between the more organized experiences and the wild free for alls I sometimes end up part of where a signficant portion of the team spends the duration of the event in the hospital. It's rare for me to be on a team that actually loses an iTrial, but my most recent Lambda experience primarily involved leaping from the hospital to the inner court, past the cannons, over and over. That character was I think only a +1, can't recall the powerset, only that running through the halls filled with psychic enemies without any Defense at all was a free trip to the hospital. Despite spending a lot of time constructing builds, I rarely actually deploy them; of the 100+ toons I have, around 5 are soft capped to anything. 

 

A philosophical aspect of this I think is that there's a big difference between organized trials and ragtag ones. (Not calling anyone a ragtag leader, but for sure I've had wildly different experiences with different groups).

 

Anyway, can we talk specifics? We've said debuffs are useful, but which ones and how much of them? Is my assumption that players quickly hit the limit of -Damage and -Regen (10% and 0%) correct? 

 

After playing this game this many years I should also know more about -Regen, but most of that experience comes from 8-man teams, where the idea is "bring some." No idea what happens if you end up with 3 or 4 -Regen sources during an iTrial and whether it becomes redundant or continues to help. That would make a huge difference for sets like Trick Arrow that have some good Resist debuffs but not -Regen.

 

One thing maybe worth asking about too is the Sonic Attack set, especially as used by Defenders. That set by itself can easily stack -60% resist before even factoring in the player's primary. I don't know how this -Resist translates into actual impact on the fight though. I have to assume my Cold/Sonic Defender isn't literally speeding up AV fights by 100%, but then again really don't know. I click stuff and eventually the enemy dies. 🙂

[Frozen Burn]

6 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I can't say I share this experience. It could be the types of characters I play, but face planting during iTrials is a regular event for me. Based on what goes on in the League window I don't think I'm alone. I don't have any character in my rotation who can tank through enemies with 59 base ToHit, even with IOs and controls. There's a portion of the BAF trial where the team splits up and goes hunting for enemy packs; the only way I've ever made it through that is to use non-aggroing powers. If I do make it to the end of an iTrial untouched, its usually because I didn't directly engage too many enemies. Especially on any toon who hasn't unlocked the second two level shifts; that's a blood bath.

 

Yes, newbie 50s in iTrials need to tread more carefully than they may be used to in the non-incarnate content.  And that is good that you do so as well - that is adapting your playstyle to the situation.  However, as a Dom or Controller, you should also be able to engage an entire group along with a couple teammates to split aggro and increase survivability.  You don't have to take the alpha, but you should be able to use your AOE controls to engage and lock down an entire spawn and help kill it all without dying, even a newbie 50.  

 

I know the portion of the BAF you refer to - let someone take the alpha while you back them up (and build your Domination, if a Dom), but you should still be able to use your Controls, Buffs/Debuffs, Damage powers without dying that often.  Yes, mistakes happen, things go wrong, powers miss, or you accidentally jump in before the tank and you die.  It happens. 

 

But if you're repeatedly dying, then you're obviously doing something consistently not right and you should earnestly look at your build, playstyle, and powers rotation.  Again, not saying you have to "tank" spawns, but you should be able to engage an entire group WITH your team/league-mates and survive. 

[StriderIV]

4 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Yeah this is kinda the direction I was leaning. Blaster and Corruptor being extremely valuable, along with certain kinds of high damage melee characters. I listed Thermal Radiation because of its unique sweet spot of being a Resistance buffer, healer, and AV debuffer. But in truth don't understand how those debuffs apply in reality.

 

I also am definitely beginning to see a split in the comments between the more organized experiences and the wild free for alls I sometimes end up part of where a signficant portion of the team spends the duration of the event in the hospital. It's rare for me to be on a team that actually loses an iTrial, but my most recent Lambda experience primarily involved leaping from the hospital to the inner court, past the cannons, over and over. That character was I think only a +1, can't recall the powerset, only that running through the halls filled with psychic enemies without any Defense at all was a free trip to the hospital. Despite spending a lot of time constructing builds, I rarely actually deploy them; of the 100+ toons I have, around 5 are soft capped to anything. 

 

A philosophical aspect of this I think is that there's a big difference between organized trials and ragtag ones. (Not calling anyone a ragtag leader, but for sure I've had wildly different experiences with different groups).

 

Anyway, can we talk specifics? We've said debuffs are useful, but which ones and how much of them? Is my assumption that players quickly hit the limit of -Damage and -Regen (10% and 0%) correct? 

 

After playing this game this many years I should also know more about -Regen, but most of that experience comes from 8-man teams, where the idea is "bring some." No idea what happens if you end up with 3 or 4 -Regen sources during an iTrial and whether it becomes redundant or continues to help. That would make a huge difference for sets like Trick Arrow that have some good Resist debuffs but not -Regen.

 

One thing maybe worth asking about too is the Sonic Attack set, especially as used by Defenders. That set by itself can easily stack -60% resist before even factoring in the player's primary. I don't know how this -Resist translates into actual impact on the fight though. I have to assume my Cold/Sonic Defender isn't literally speeding up AV fights by 100%, but then again really don't know. I click stuff and eventually the enemy dies. 🙂

I will say, I’m surprised I’ve seen Thermal so much. It does seem to have a great tool kick, but I always saw it as a “Jack of all trades, Master of none” which left it as a solid A/B tier set. 
 

I’ve obviously been understating it’s value. Seems like it’s great for teams doing top tier end game content.

[Frozen Burn]

5 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I also am definitely beginning to see a split in the comments between the more organized experiences and the wild free for alls I sometimes end up part of where a signficant portion of the team spends the duration of the event in the hospital. It's rare for me to be on a team that actually loses an iTrial, but my most recent Lambda experience primarily involved leaping from the hospital to the inner court, past the cannons, over and over. That character was I think only a +1, can't recall the powerset, only that running through the halls filled with psychic enemies without any Defense at all was a free trip to the hospital. Despite spending a lot of time constructing builds, I rarely actually deploy them; of the 100+ toons I have, around 5 are soft capped to anything. 

 

A philosophical aspect of this I think is that there's a big difference between organized trials and ragtag ones. (Not calling anyone a ragtag leader, but for sure I've had wildly different experiences with different groups).

 

This makes a lot of sense regarding your previous comments - definitely, there is a different experience on more organized iTrials versus random PUG iTrials.  You certainly have to adjust your playstyle to adapt tot he situation... if lots of people are dying, then you probably have a lot of people who don't know how to do the iTrial or they are still trying to learn how to play their newly PL'd 50 who are there just to get it's incarnate abilities so it can farm.  ...I've been on those leagues, and you do have to play more conservative.

 

However, you also mention you rarely soft cap defenses on any of your toons.  While you don't have to always be at the soft cap on all your toons, being close enough to down a purple insp or 2 should be good enough to keep you alive during these iTrial messes - as well as keep you alive when running back from hospital, if you have to.  

[Snarky]

13 minutes ago, StriderIV said:

I will say, I’m surprised I’ve seen Thermal so much. It does seem to have a great tool kick, but I always saw it as a “Jack of all trades, Master of none” which left it as a solid A/B tier set. 
 

I’ve obviously been understating it’s value. Seems like it’s great for teams doing top tier end game content.

I think you have to look at "special cases" quite a bit when looking at this type of work.  MOST Corruptors are very good at incarnate work due to heals or debuffs.  Now take an Ice/Cold Corruptor... Fuggedaboutit.  The Benumb and Sleet powers are so good due to the debuffs, and the pairing of Scourge with Ice's two DoT AoEs.....just wow.

 

Rather than pick ATs you really need to look at the job needed to be done on each individual trial and bring the powers to get the job done, with the AT that has the most powerful and synergistic ability to deliver the powers.  This requires an understanding of the Trials and an in depth knowledge of game power mechanics.

 

This is one of the many reasons CoH/CoV still delivers.  The complexity is just astounding.  No one even tries for this anymore.  Most new players from other MMORPGs will miss the details because they never realized a game could have this much under the hood.

 

For instance, How many people realize you can only stack 5 interfaces of the same type on a target, but if you have 5 T4s you can still stack another 5 T3s of the same Interface....?

Edited March 19, 2022 by Snarky

[StriderIV]

12 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I think you have to look at "special cases" quite a bit when looking at this type of work.  MOST Corruptors are very good at incarnate work due to heals or debuffs.  Now take an Ice/Cold Corruptor... Fuggedaboutit.  The Benumb and Sleet powers are so good due to the debuffs, and the pairing of Scourge with Ice's two DoT AoEs.....just wow.

 

Rather than pick ATs you really need to look at the job needed to be done on each individual trial and bring the powers to get the job done, with the AT that has the most powerful and synergistic ability to deliver the powers.  This requires an understanding of the Trials and an in depth knowledge of game power mechanics.

 

This is one of the many reasons CoH/CoV still delivers.  The complexity is just astounding.  No one even tries for this anymore.  Most new players from other MMORPGs will miss the details because they never realized a game could have this much under the hood.

 

For instance, How many people realize you can only stack 5 interfaces of the same type on a target, but if you have 5 T4s you can still stack another 5 T3s of the same Interface....?

+1 to all of this (and super interesting on that last point, I had no idea)!

 

I guess my surprise with Thermal was that is does just a little bit of everything, and it doesn’t really get to shine doing all that in 8 man, roll stomp groups. That being said, in tough content line iTrials or maybe 801’s, I COULD see how it would have more of an opportunity to shine with it’s heals, shields and -regen on either a Defender or Corruptor.

Edited March 19, 2022 by StriderIV

[oedipus_tex]

4 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

This makes a lot of sense regarding your previous comments - definitely, there is a different experience on more organized iTrials versus random PUG iTrials.  You certainly have to adjust your playstyle to adapt tot he situation... if lots of people are dying, then you probably have a lot of people who don't know how to do the iTrial or they are still trying to learn how to play their newly PL'd 50 who are there just to get it's incarnate abilities so it can farm.  ...I've been on those leagues, and you do have to play more conservative.

 

However, you also mention you rarely soft cap defenses on any of your toons.  While you don't have to always be at the soft cap on all your toons, being close enough to down a purple insp or 2 should be good enough to keep you alive during these iTrial messes - as well as keep you alive when running back from hospital, if you have to.  

 

 

I primarily play Dominators, sometimes Controllers, and on occasion Defenders. I have an IOed to the gills Ice/Rad Stalker who is actually great but I lost interest in very quickly, I don't think he's seen the light of Paragon City in over a year. Can't remember how he performed in iTrials. I only ever end up in them when I'm recruited circumstantially. It's never a planned thing. 

 

I just had a look at my full roster of characters. I have 180 characters. 😄 About 30 50s. Three of these have builds I'd call complete. To be fair, what usually happens is when I create a new character of the same class, rather than rebuy all the IOs, I strip old characters and mail them over, so this isn't completely representative of my experience. But for sure I've never concentrated hard on building an end game roster.

 

My "main" is an Elec/Psy Dominator. I picked that specifically because I considered it a solid A to B tier character, which I tend to prefer to true S tier toons. I think the build is strong, or at least as strong as this particular combo is likely to get. This is one of only two characters I've bothered to outfit with full sets of Frozens. He sits at around 40 Defense to Slash/Lethal/Melee/Ranged, uses Destiny Barrier to hit soft cap at its ebb. For sure though he's got serious liabilities in this content. Most of the damage is point-blank punches. The Regen debuff is nice but again point blank and risky. No Sleet (took the Psi pool) because the rain interupts the Sleep patch. There's probably a build for him that would function better in these trials--switching to Sleet, for example--but overall the current objective is usually "survive until the team carries us over the finish line." 😄 It might also seem like a Dominator would be well suited to grabbing control, but in my experience packs come in two types, obliterated quickly or not worth engaging. It's marginally useful to toss out Synaptic Overloads here and there without drawing aggro. Needless to say the PBAoE aura stays toggled off, because its main feature is to attract undesirable aggro.

 

I imagine a Plant Dominator might have a very different experience. 

[Apparition]

First of all, it was clear that @oedipus_tex was talking from a min/max perspective in the original post, which is how I replied.  I would certainly never tell someone to play something else, or that he or she is not allowed on whatever I'm running because of his or her AT or power sets.  The worst that will happen is that I will switch myself to a different, better suited character for the team, which I frequently do.

 

 

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

On this point I'm going to gently disagree. Force Field with Power Boost has reliable double strength shields. On a Defender its around +38 Defense for 4 minutes. I think probably the strongest members of the team don't need that level of strength, but I would be floored if most members of a 24 man league wouldn't benefit from it. It shields the players and also their pets, is constantly available. I've played Time a lot and respect it for its strengths, but this is one of the rare cases where I think the FF'er takes it. I can really feel the difference when there's a strong Force Fielder around versus not, especially on weaker toons who are just entering iTrials for the first time. Of course there's a dark possibility here that keeping those weaker characters alive doesn't contribute as much in the overall as just getting some heavy dps and debuffing from a handful of team members who carry the event.

 

It's interesting that you mention Electric Affinity. That's a set I'd personally rather not bring to an iTrial, due to the way the Electric buff tails off. That could be misperception on my part on how these powers work. With so many players and pets running around an iTrial I imagine the target caps get hit quickly. Most other buff sets don't have target caps that you're likely to hit.

 

Like I mentioned before, I'm still unclear on exactly how debuffs work or how much you actually need. I do have an end game Cold/Sonic Defender built specifically as a debuff monster, but measuring how much that contributes to an iTrial is hard to do. For one thing, the character is very vulnerable to death and doesn't have an easy time approaching enemies. He can throw weight into AV fights from a distance of course. 

 

IIRC there's no cap on how much -Resist you can apply to an enemy, but I'm also not sure how much of the character's -Resist is actually applying to enemies in that content.

 

What is the -Regen cap? I assume it's only "worth" having a few sources of -Regen and everything after that is beyond the cap. Same thing for -Damage. Like, these two seem like a case where having none of it will really slow you down, but having a ton of it won't really speed you up or aid survivability. But again am unsure of how the numbers shake out in reality.

 

 

I can see what's going on.  You're playing non-self sufficient (i.e. characters not built for the defense soft cap) on PUG iTrials.  That's... just don't do that.  If you're going to largely PUG, you are always better off building for self-sufficiency, i.e. the defense soft cap.  Relying on PUGs to cover your weaknesses just leads to pain, like you're experiencing.  That's the real issue here.  If you build for the defense soft cap, and everyone else does as well, you'll see that Force Field is largely useless as Time, Cold, and the Barrier Destiny will top off your defense, and they all bring more to an iTrial or hard mode content than Force Field.

 

As to debuffs, -res is substantially more valuable than -regen, both because of the lower -regen cap and because at least in the Magi trial, Tyrant is completely immune to -regen.  Your Cold/Sonic Defender, built correctly, would be a monster on iTrials and hard mode content.

 

As for Electrical Affinity, it brings heals (which are invaluable for the things that damage players no matter what defense and/or resistance they have), and the best AoE mez protection in the game.

 

 

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

Triggered.  Bound to happen in this thread.  But still, really low hanging fruit.  Saying Tankers and Scrappers are desired and Brutes are not desired?  Wow.

 

Any type of in depth analysis might have mitigated this.  But.. . squanto was offered.

 

Sooooooo  This guy thinks a Fire/Fire Tank or a Kinetic Melee Regen Scrapper would be better than any Brute on a Incarnate Trial.  After all, any Tank or Scrapper is desired.  Any Brute is not desired.

 

 

 

 

Again, I would never personally turn anyone away and was speaking in generalities.  But if I had a choice between a KM/Regen Scrapper or a KM/Regen Brute?  Yeah, I'd take the Scrapper.  Sorry.

 

The three most important things in an iTrial or hard mode content are: damage, -resistance debuffs, and healing.  AoE mez protection and -regen debuffs to a lesser degree.  When it comes to damage, Scrappers > Brutes.  When it comes to tanking, Tankers > Brutes.  Brutes just have no real role when you could have a Scrapper or Tanker instead.

 

 

31 minutes ago, StriderIV said:

I will say, I’m surprised I’ve seen Thermal so much. It does seem to have a great tool kick, but I always saw it as a “Jack of all trades, Master of none” which left it as a solid A/B tier set. 
 

I’ve obviously been understating it’s value. Seems like it’s great for teams doing top tier end game content.

 

Thermal is great because it's a jack of all trades.  It gives +resistance buffs, which is much rarer than +defense buffs.  It heals, which you need on iTrials and hard mode content.  And it has great debuffs.

[StriderIV]

3 minutes ago, Apparition said:

First of all, it was clear that @oedipus_tex was talking from a min/max perspective in the original post, which is how I replied.  I would certainly never tell someone to play something else, or that he or she is not allowed on whatever I'm running because of his or her AT or power sets.  The worst that will happen is that I will switch myself to a different, better suited character for the team, which I frequently do.

 

 

 

 

I can see what's going on.  You're playing non-self sufficient (i.e. characters not built for the defense soft cap) on PUG iTrials.  That's... just don't do that.  If you're going to largely PUG, you are always better off building for self-sufficiency, i.e. the defense soft cap.  Relying on PUGs to cover your weaknesses just leads to pain, like you're experiencing.  That's the real issue here.  If you build for the defense soft cap, and everyone else does as well, you'll see that Force Field is largely useless as Time, Cold, and the Barrier Destiny will top off your defense, and they all bring more to an iTrial or hard mode content than Force Field.

 

As to debuffs, -res is substantially more valuable than -regen, both because of the lower -regen cap and because at least in the Magi trial, Tyrant is completely immune to -regen.  Your Cold/Sonic Defender, built correctly, would be a monster on iTrials and hard mode content.

 

As for Electrical Affinity, it brings heals (which are invaluable for the things that damage players no matter what defense and/or resistance they have), and the best AoE mez protection in the game.

 

 

 

 

Again, I would never personally turn anyone away and was speaking in generalities.  But if I had a choice between a KM/Regen Scrapper or a KM/Regen Brute?  Yeah, I'd take the Scrapper.  Sorry.

 

The three most important things in an iTrial or hard mode content are: damage, -resistance debuffs, and healing.  AoE mez protection and -regen debuffs to a lesser degree.  When it comes to damage, Scrappers > Brutes.  When it comes to tanking, Tankers > Brutes.  Brutes just have no real role when you could have a Scrapper or Tanker instead.

 

 

 

Thermal is great because it's a jack of all trades.  It gives +resistance buffs, which is much rarer than +defense buffs.  It heals, which you need on iTrials and hard mode content.  And it has great debuffs.

Thanks App. Yeah it’s just funny to me that they very reason I THOUGHT Thermal might be mediocre (doing a little bit of everything and not shining in one particular area) is what actually makes on strong in tough content. Shows how nearsighted I was!

[Snarky]

18 minutes ago, Apparition said:

The three most important things in an iTrial or hard mode content are: damage, -resistance debuffs, and healing.  AoE mez protection and -regen debuffs to a lesser degree.  When it comes to damage, Scrappers > Brutes.  When it comes to tanking, Tankers > Brutes.  Brutes just have no real role when you could have a Scrapper or Tanker instead.

 

You're killing me smalls. You Do not know what a Brute is?

 

I run a Dark/Invul Brute.  Situationally awesome.  I can Tank.  If you do not believe that then I cannot show it to you.  Sorry for your lack of understanding.  Would a Tank be a little easier to do that with.... slightly.  But guess what.  If you are holding agro and not dying it does not matter.  The Brute can do that.

 

I have a solid ST attack chain. That adds quite a bit more damage than a Tank.  As much as a Scrapper?  No.  But If I am Tanking AND doing significant damage?  This is not a bad combo.

 

But think what you want.  You have been around a few weeks.  if you think there is no place for Brutes in high end incarnate work you must be right.

 

 

 

 

[oedipus_tex]

4 minutes ago, StriderIV said:

Thanks App. Yeah it’s just funny to me that they very reason I THOUGHT Thermal might be mediocre (doing a little bit of everything and not shining in one particular area) is what actually makes on strong in tough content. Shows how nearsighted I was!

 

I also just recently learned that Resistance debuff resistance doesn't care about the archetype hard caps for Resistance, it uses the "real" number. So, even on a Controller or other squishy AT, if you buff their Resistance to 100%, they are now immune to resistable Resist debuffs of that flavor. There are no -Resist debuffs I can think of in iTrials, but they IIRC Longbow missions red side are prone to include it. Another feather in Thermal's hat.

 

(It's also often forgotten that Storm, Dark, and Cold all have exotic Resistance. We don't usually think of those sets as "big bubble" sets like FF or Sonic Resonance, but their aura power is actually pretty good, especially on Defenders).

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, Apparition said:

The three most important things in an iTrial or hard mode content are: damage, -resistance debuffs, and healing.  AoE mez protection and -regen debuffs to a lesser degree.  When it comes to damage, Scrappers > Brutes.  When it comes to tanking, Tankers > Brutes.  Brutes just have no real role when you could have a Scrapper or Tanker instead.

 

 

I'm surprised about the AoE mezz protection to be honest. But again this could be coming from bias playing these trials. Every toon I build beelines mezz protection of some kind. There is of course that one difficult encounter in the Underground trial where mezz protection becomes absolutely vital. Are there significant other moments where it's a factor I'm not thinking of?

 

 

18 minutes ago, Apparition said:

As to debuffs, -res is substantially more valuable than -regen, both because of the lower -regen cap and because at least in the Magi trial, Tyrant is completely immune to -regen.  Your Cold/Sonic Defender, built correctly, would be a monster on iTrials and hard mode content.

 

What's interesting about this to me is that single target -Resist is available in the Sonic Attack set in much greater volume than some actual Defender primary sets. Sonic Attack on its own can reasonably hit -60%, perhaps -80%. A set like Radiation Emission can only hit -30%. Even Thermal, which as we've noted is a high performer, only gets -30%. So it seems conceivable to me that that specific primary might supersede in this specific content. 

 

 

26 minutes ago, Apparition said:

I can see what's going on.  You're playing non-self sufficient (i.e. characters not built for the defense soft cap) on PUG iTrials.  That's... just don't do that.  If you're going to largely PUG, you are always better off building for self-sufficiency, i.e. the defense soft cap.  Relying on PUGs to cover your weaknesses just leads to pain, like you're experiencing.  That's the real issue here.  If you build for the defense soft cap, and everyone else does as well, you'll see that Force Field is largely useless as Time, Cold, and the Barrier Destiny will top off your defense, and they all bring more to an iTrial or hard mode content than Force Field.

 

 

Like I mentioned I don't plan things out much. Usually if I'm joining one of these events it's going to be on someone who is not yet +3 specifically because I need to unlock stuff. I suppose that makes me a rider player. 🙂 A lot of the iTrial experience for me is played from the perspective of passive observer. I do know the mechanics of most of them, but except for a very limited number of toons don't have anything built for that kind of encounter. 

There's also possibly a subversive issue at play. I tend to know what the S Tier combos are and then not play them. Haha. I've always been attracted more to the middle tier performers. Hence Electric Control, Ice Control.

 

 

Want to see something really damning?

 

 

 

[Snarky]

2 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

I also just recently learned that Resistance debuff resistance doesn't care about the archetype hard caps for Resistance, it uses the "real" number. So, even on a Controller or other squishy AT, if you buff their Resistance to 100%, they are now immune to resistable Resist debuffs of that flavor. There are no -Resist debuffs I can think of in iTrials, but they IIRC Longbow missions red side are prone to include it. Another feather in Thermal's hat.

 

This linear mechanism came as a shock to many of us recently as we explored build ideas for Dr Aeon.  (It did to me at least!) Resistance value is the resistance to debuff resistance?  No Way!  CoH is infamous for deep layers of alternate abilities with diminishing returns and arcane adjustments to get to the final number.  

 

Side note, way easy for a Brute to get to that 100% value for certain powersets needed for certain fights.  A dead or running Scrapper is doing zero DPS, i don't care what your spreadsheet attack chains say.

[oedipus_tex]

11 minutes ago, Snarky said:

This linear mechanism came as a shock to many of us recently as we explored build ideas for Dr Aeon.  (It did to me at least!) Resistance value is the resistance to debuff resistance?  No Way!  CoH is infamous for deep layers of alternate abilities with diminishing returns and arcane adjustments to get to the final number.  

 

 

We haven't talked much about Aeon in this thread. I'll be honest, during the time it was being tested I was working on my own private project and wasn't around Homecoming much. I'm an opportunist and only hop on Task Forces as invites pop up in the global LFT box, and so far this one hasn't. Is there a lot of Resist debuff in there to watch out for?

[Snarky]

Just now, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

We haven't talked much about Aeon in this thread. I'll be honest, during the time it was being tested I was working on my own private project and wasn't around Homecoming much. I'm an opportunist and only hop on Task Forces as invites pop up in the global LFT box, and so far this one hasn't. Is there a lot of Resist debuff in there to watch out for?

That is my understanding and where I discovered the simple truth or Resistance Debuff Resistance. (Why does that phrase never sound like I am conveying what it is lol?)

 

There is a lot or Resistance Debuff in some of the battles evidently.  i have run it sporadically for social groups (speed runs and one Master outing)  I am a "just Say No" to Relentless.  That is crazy by my standards.