Cryopistol Animation Root Cancel Change Reversion

[M3z]

Did anyone who actively pvps still even want this change in the first place? It was a BALANCED quality of life mechanic.

 

If you don't know what I'm talking about and want to see an example of it in action and how much it helps melee watch vid below

Cryopistol animation cancel example:

 

How it works:

Using an ingame script you are able to do an attack and pull the pistol out cancelling the root time of animations. The animation lockout window will still be in effect meaning you cannot do multiple attacks in quick succession. This strictly affects positioning and in meta where mezzes dont exist, slows don't matter and everyone is basically free to run around and evade infinitely this better helps ATs and sets that relied on mezzes for their uptime(melee etc).

 

Reasons to bring it back:

• Helps melee uptime, with advent of jaunt i13 removal of mechanics (mezzes/slows/stuns etc) melee uptime in current meta is atrocious. This allows melee to better stick to targets
• It's balanced. You don't get the benefit for free. The animation cancel takes you off target and there is no known way around this. Meaning you do an attack, you crypistol cancel removing the root time and you are forcibly removed off target making you have to retarget. In arena/zones this is difficult because there are either enemies or NPCs that will interfere with your retargeting. It's often a tactically decision whether to fully animate your attack chain and risk falling behind your target or being out of position or to commit to cancelling your animation and risk being off target and miss your attack chain. I think the risk/reward factor in my experience made this effect balanced.
• It doesn't matter if it was intended or not, many games that are great (Smash Brothers Melee/Marvel vs Capcom 2 etc etc) had many effects that were "not intended" but due to the freedom of the engine(City of Heroes is a game like this!) it allowed for more emergent game play and freedom. MvC2 had infinites with Iron Man, Melee had wavedashing/L cancelling and CoH has cryopistol cancelling.

 

I don't care if the ability comes back as an accolade that you can buy that is only usable in pvp but the affect itself was cool and made the game 10 times more enjoyable. Please bring it back. The 30% animation reduction time, although a really good change, did not affect disparities in powersets nor does it address the huge uptime difference between range and melee.

 

Edit: Someone told me you guys already hashed this out on the goldbrick discord or whatever it's called, for the love of christ why can't people consult experienced pvpers before they make changes like this lol

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by M3z

[Glacier Peak]

You lost me at ingame script. If my memory serves me right, that's a frowned upon utility on Homecoming.

 

As for consulting experienced PvPers, the call goes out to test and provide feedback. If you don't like the proposed changes before they hit live, please join in testing these proposed changes when they hit the test server - the HC Team is entirely open to such expertise and really relies on it quite honestly. If that's something that you'd like to help do, believe me when I say your assistance would be very much welcome. 

 

That's how more arena maps were added. Players tested them out on the beta shard. That's how fakkolades were added. That's how the removal of Incarnates from RV (except Alpha slot) were added. And the many PvP power changes over the past few issues/pages as well. They all get tested (with who ever can volunteer their time to do so). There are lots of things that are tested and rejected too that don't make the cutting room floor so to speak. But the goal is to always make the game more enjoyable for the population that participates in the PvP elements of the game. 

[M3z]

8 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

You lost me at ingame script. If my memory serves me right, that's a frowned upon utility on Homecoming.

 

As for consulting experienced PvPers, the call goes out to test and provide feedback. If you don't like the proposed changes before they hit live, please join in testing these proposed changes when they hit the test server - the HC Team is entirely open to such expertise and really relies on it quite honestly. If that's something that you'd like to help do, believe me when I say your assistance would be very much welcome. 

 

That's how more arena maps were added. Players tested them out on the beta shard. That's how fakkolades were added. That's how the removal of Incarnates from RV (except Alpha slot) were added. And the many PvP power changes over the past few issues/pages as well. They all get tested (with who ever can volunteer their time to do so). There are lots of things that are tested and rejected too that don't make the cutting room floor so to speak. But the goal is to always make the game more enjoyable for the population that participates in the PvP elements of the game. 

I meant a bind not a script, my chemo meds make me forget all my words now lol. If they just turned it into an accolade power that cancels roots I'd be down for that instead as well. And also it goes without saying I'd want this to be a pvp only change so it doesn't have to change what pve'rs are doing.

 

Regarding things going to test and feedback etc. There was discussion and they decided on their own that it was a bug despite our protests that it improved the game(this discussion occurred on a private discord). But I've provided pvp feedback and I got ignored pretty much 100% of the time everytime I've ever posted so they do just do whatever they want which ultimately is fine because this is their free time they are doing dev work so I don't expect them to do everything everyone asks. I'm just publicly venting my frustrations in general with this post.

 

Regarding the arena maps comment. That was aided from a particular dev, the crey pistol change was done by another dev who decided to do it all on his own without asking anyone. I'm not going to name them because I'm not out here trying to get banned. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by M3z

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, M3z said:

I meant a bind, my chemo meds make me forget all my words now lol.

 

Regarding things going to test and feedback etc. There was discussion and they decided on their own that it was a bug despite our protests that it improved the game(this discussion occurred on a private discord). But I've provided pvp feedback and I got ignored pretty much 100% of the time everytime I've ever posted so they do just do whatever they want which ultimately is fine because this is their free time they are doing dev work so I don't expect them to do everything everyone asks. I'm just publicly venting my frustrations in general with this post.

 

Regarding the arena maps comment. That was aided from a particular dev, the crey pistol change was done by another dev who decided to do it all on his own without asking anyone. I'm not going to name them because I'm not out here trying to get banned. 

Ah no sweat, I figured after rereading you meant bind or macro. And that sucks, hope you're not on them too long.

 

And that's tough. Sometimes there are things that will be changed even over the protest of testers and players, (I'm reminded of the huge uproar the base macro change caused and the introduction of Infiltration as examples), but are better for the game in the long term. And sometimes the HC devs see things in the code we aren't privy to. And, I'm sure there are some things that they won't ever change even with huge uproar. Bottom line, your feedback was valuable and the time you spent to test out the change was appreciated, even though it wasn't kept in like you had wanted. All I can say for sure is the best way to shape the future of this volunteer driven community, and specifically in regards to PvP, is to continue your testing and feedback. Glad there is someone still reading the PvP sub forum to reply!

[M3z]

19 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Ah no sweat, I figured after rereading you meant bind or macro. And that sucks, hope you're not on them too long.

 

And that's tough. Sometimes there are things that will be changed even over the protest of testers and players, (I'm reminded of the huge uproar the base macro change caused and the introduction of Infiltration as examples), but are better for the game in the long term. And sometimes the HC devs see things in the code we aren't privy to. And, I'm sure there are some things that they won't ever change even with huge uproar. Bottom line, your feedback was valuable and the time you spent to test out the change was appreciated, even though it wasn't kept in like you had wanted. All I can say for sure is the best way to shape the future of this volunteer driven community, and specifically in regards to PvP, is to continue your testing and feedback. Glad there is someone still reading the PvP sub forum to reply!

The HC devs have said they do this on their free time and hence they will essentially do whatever they, which is fair. Certain devs have even given us new maps which is amazing and great and everyone appreciated it.

 

But there are other devs who don't have a coherent vision of the game, don't understand what's strong and what isn't (they were going to add -def and -regen to all fire sets INCLUDING fire manipulations for blasters which is already the strongest set in the entire game for PVE) and overall don't listen/don't give a fuck what anyone thinks or wants or what communities think or want lol. Like I said if I thought they had a stronger understanding of the game I wouldn't care but it's obvious they don't. And what's frustrating is they don't come to us to gap their understanding they just pretend to listen to opinion then do whatever the fuck they want lol. And I'm not just talking about me, I'm talking about anyone..

 

I've tested individual sets for test server beta patches, I've given massive indepth feedback on balance etc etc. My credibility comes from running the #1 Villain PVP ladder team in the game on live(we had a ladder system that was posted on the forums if there is an archive of the forum go check if you care) and the #2 PVP team for a while on HC(go check my youtube archive for anyone who cares). To pvp at that level and run teams at that level requires an absolute understanding of essentially every set in the game so you can properly generate competitive 8v8 teams and drive the meta forward with new innovative strategies.

 

But none of that matters, in their mind they still know more. I mean do they know more about coding than me? Absolutely. Game design balance for pve? yes. Game design balance for pvp? I doubt it.

 

Again this is just me pissing in the ocean here/venting. If you want to believe they will listen go for it, keep posting! Maybe one day. But I know tons of people who have direct lines of communications and no these guys just do whatever they want, trust me.

 

Anyways, at this point unless something drastically changes I've basically been done with this game for a while, I only play like once or twice a week now. If this small change got implemented I'd probably play a lot more and I know a lot more others would since it makes the game so much funner. I didn't intend to write a giant wall of text but there you have it lol. /rant

[Glacier Peak]

2 minutes ago, M3z said:

The HC devs have said they do this on their free time and hence they will essentially do whatever they, which is fair. Certain devs have even given us new maps which is amazing and great and everyone appreciated it.

 

But there are other devs who don't have a coherent vision of the game, don't understand what's strong and what isn't (they were going to add -def and -regen to all fire sets INCLUDING fire manipulations for blasters which is already the strongest set in the entire game for PVE) and overall don't listen/don't give a fuck what anyone thinks or wants or what communities think or want lol. Like I said if I thought they had a stronger understanding of the game I wouldn't care but it's obvious they don't. And what's frustrating is they don't come to us to gap their understanding they just pretend to listen to opinion then do whatever the fuck they want lol. And I'm not just talking about me, I'm talking about anyone..

 

I've tested individual sets for test server beta patches, I've given massive indepth feedback on balance etc etc. My credibility comes from running the #1 Villain PVP ladder team in the game on live(we had a ladder system that was posted on the forums if there is an archive of the forum go check if you care) and the #2 PVP team for a while on HC(go check my youtube archive for anyone who cares). To pvp at that level and run teams at that level requires an absolute understanding of essentially every set in the game so you can properly generate competitive 8v8 teams and drive the meta forward with new innovative strategies.

 

But none of that matters, in their mind they still know more. I mean do they know more about coding than me? Absolutely. Game design balance for pve? yes. Game design balance for pvp? I doubt it.

 

Again this is just me pissing in the ocean here/venting. If you want to believe they will listen go for it, keep posting! Maybe one day. But I know tons of people who have direct lines of communications and no these guys just do whatever they want, trust me.

 

Anyways, at this point unless something drastically changes I've basically been done with this game for a while, I only play like once or twice a week now. If this small change got implemented I'd probably play a lot more and I know a lot more others would since it makes the game so much funner. I didn't intend to write a giant wall of text but there you have it lol. /rant

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take, as they say. Maybe by you posting, it will make an impact. Forums are meant to be the place for long discussion, I think that's at least something to be able to share your thoughts on topic of PvP, and more specifically cryopistol animation canceling. 

[Marbing]

Would it not be better to just make all (except AS) melee attacks not root in PvP? Instead of bringing back an exploit. I wouldn’t see an issue with removing roots on Melee attacks to allow them better mobility in an environment dominated by ranged toons. IMO

 

 

EDIT: Nvm decoupling animation roots in PvP may not be possible without affecting PvE. Does anyone have anything hard to back that? I seem to remember this being a thing.

 

EDIT#2: Then again I am not entirely convinced it would be a huge problem in PvE if Melee toons didn’t get animation rooted. But I also haven’t had my coffee yet.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Marbing

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Marbing said:

Would it not be better to just make all (except AS) melee attacks not root in PvP? Instead of bringing back an exploit. I wouldn’t see an issue with removing roots on Melee attacks to allow them better mobility in an environment dominated by ranged toons. IMO

 

EDIT: Nvm decoupling animation roots in PvP may not be possible without affecting PvE. Does anyone have anything hard to back that? I seem to remember this being a thing.

 

EDIT#2: Then again I am not entirely convinced it would be a huge problem in PvE if Melee toons didn’t get animation rooted. But I also haven’t had my coffee yet.

I'd say if you're going to suggest it for Melee attacks, might as well do it for Ranged too.

[Marbing]

8 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I'd say if you're going to suggest it for Melee attacks, might as well do it for Ranged too.

True, but Ranged already has inherent advantages and less risk associated with it as is.

[Banana Man]

It's not the same as changing all attacks to not root. Using crey pistol required both a button press (not hard), and made you drop target (unless the target was closer to you than anyone else). So situationally, crey pistol cancelling does have significant drawbacks to the user. Unless you're 1v1ing or emping, you can't just spam it every attack.

 

It's really unfortunate, because more powersets were viable before the crey pistol "fix." The sort of middle ground the developers gave us was reducing all roots to 70% of the intended animation, to try and compensate for the effective nerf to powers with long casts from fixing crey pistol. As a few people warned, though, this alone was not a sufficient remedy, and actually does the exact opposite of the intent. Powers with fast roots/casts just got a buff out of it, and most longer animations are still pretty useless (beam went from being viable to trash tier instantly, psi went from being good to literally broken now). For the current system to work, root times would have to tweaked on a powerset by powerset basis, or even a power by power basis.

[Marbing]

11 hours ago, Banana Man said:

It's not the same as changing all attacks to not root. Using crey pistol required both a button press (not hard), and made you drop target (unless the target was closer to you than anyone else). So situationally, crey pistol cancelling does have significant drawbacks to the user. Unless you're 1v1ing or emping, you can't just spam it every attack.

 

It's really unfortunate, because more powersets were viable before the crey pistol "fix." The sort of middle ground the developers gave us was reducing all roots to 70% of the intended animation, to try and compensate for the effective nerf to powers with long casts from fixing crey pistol. As a few people warned, though, this alone was not a sufficient remedy, and actually does the exact opposite of the intent. Powers with fast roots/casts just got a buff out of it, and most longer animations are still pretty useless (beam went from being viable to trash tier instantly, psi went from being good to literally broken now). For the current system to work, root times would have to tweaked on a powerset by powerset basis, or even a power by power basis.

You may have to explain what you mean, not following. If the crey pistol was used to close the gap for several powersets by canceling the animation root. Why would an across the board cancel make some powersets worse? I am not saying you are wrong just trying to follow the logic.

 

EDIT: Nvm I think I get what you are trying to say.

 

 

EDIT#2: What if the across the board animation root cancelling amount scaled with the powers animation? Meaning:

 

power 1 has a 1 sec animation

power 2 has a 3 sec animation

 

power 1 would get a 10% reduction

power 3 would get a 70% reduction because it’s animation is higher. (Just an example)

 

You could possibly code the reduction to look at the current animation and adjust accordingly without the need to go case by case. This way higher animation root powers would get a much greater benefit than lower animation  root powers. 
 

You could even make the benefit greater for Melee powers, to help close that gap between melee and ranged too.

 

To clarify, when I say animation root reduction I mean the root that goes with it not the animation itself. I don’t mean speed up the animation. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Marbing

[Glacier Peak]

@M3z did you see this thread from last year?

 

 

[macskull]

Goddamn, it's been over a year already since that happened?