Azrael Tank Ratings.

[Golden Azrael]

7 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Azrael, any AT can handle Sappers provided they possess good Energy Defense.

 

To a degree, yes.  It can buy time to know them into the next universe.

 

However, I've hand my toggle pants pulled down even when blessed in that department.  ('Maybe it's because I've got high positional defence...but that may not extend to high Energy Defence.  I'll check that on my SR and Shield Tanks.)  So it may be that.

 

Slightly embarrassing.

 

Sappers can be lucky gits.  (Most 'detested' mob on Live.  My En/En blaster suffered greatly...)

 

But if I gets my hands on them 1st...

 

I do have have a Elec Armour B**** and Energy Melee alt.  Laughs at Malta whilst knocking their lights out.  By comparison, my nearest equivalent, Invul'/Energy Melee (great Tank for beginner/rookie/starter Tanks) has had his pants down with Sappers.  Probably not high enough Energy Defence.

 

Azrael.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Golden Azrael

[Golden Azrael]

16 hours ago, Mezmera said:

 

I like them both and have both crafted.  The regen one is more suited to my tank if I was doing it just for me but the hp buff one seems to me to be more optimal for squishy teammates for the sudden damage spikes, I'm not completely maxed out hp anyways so either one I'm fine with.  I'm always teaming on my tank so the hp buff one is typically what I feel gets better use. 

 

I've never taken left side for Rebirth.  You make a sound point about boosting your squishy team mates with more HPs.  Also useful for lower HP Tanks?  On my lower 'HPs' Tanks, I've aken radial...but have had pause to wonder on the left side as I've gotten better at building Tanks (maybe try it out.)

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

On 6/15/2022 at 1:42 AM, Hyperstrike said:

Nah!  I'm perfectly content to take MONTHS to SSSSSSSLLLLLLOOOOOOWWWWWLLLLLLLLYYYYYYY sand off every last HP.

And if there's a problem, I'll just continue fighting them to a standstill until they just give up.

 

You have to admire Hyperstrike's persistence of vision.

 

'I'll grind ya ta dust...even if it takes forever.'  Kind of like the Thing against the Hulk.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

On 6/15/2022 at 7:34 AM, Troo said:

 

+1

 

Electric Armor is strong in my opinion as well.

Is it number one, nah, maybe situationally.

I also struggle with SR being #6. Maybe that much defense is wasted on a tank?

 

 

I just love Elec' Armour.

 

Don't know what it is about it.  Plays 'so-so' Smooth as Butter.  

 

Is it the robust Psi?  Is it the super fast recharging Pocket Regen button?  Er...is it the anti Sapper pull your toggle pants down?  (!)  Is it the Pocket Hasten?  20%!!!!!

 

Could it be the 'Freakshow Stunner' Power Sink?  'Hey, mobs...you lookin' kinda tired there...'  (*Mobs, 'Must....lift...arm......attack....gdm....cheeky...Tank...')

 

Mmmm.....mmm....*nods head.

 

Could be a perfect Tank Armour for beginner / rookie Tanks?

 

Azrael.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Golden Azrael

[Golden Azrael]

18 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

That one is stronger - but i think my Shield/Electric is more fun honestly. You really do feel like a god when weilding lightning rod, shield charge, chain induction, thunderstrike, and mighty or ionic together.

 

Its awesome.

 

I'll have to have a closer look at your 'Electric God' and compare builds  (us male heroes...always comparing...you know?  LOL...)

 

Seriously, I rolled a Shield Elec and it is a barn storming barrel of fun.  When a beginner Tank has moved on from the more obvious 'starter' Tanks, I'd recommend Shield Elec.

 

The penny dropping moment for me was when I push for high global recharge, hasten, and fitted in TWO Force Feedbacks into TWO AoEs.  The accelerated recharge was off the charts.  Strategically, the mobs don't know what hits them.  Lightning Rod.  Shield Charge.  Thunderstrike.  TANKING WAR GOD OFFENCE.  What's left of the mobs is in bits...reeling from a shell shocking series of attacks.  And yes!  I take the 'Hand Clap' power.   For SHOW BOATING purposes, gloating and TURBO CHARGING that recharge.

 

As in?

 

'You really do feel like a god when wielding Lightning Rod (I call upon ZEUS to SMITE them!), Shield Charge (sense shattering), Chain Induction (that's a nasty SoB power right there...under rated...), Thunderstrike (Mob crashingly good), and Mighty or Ionic togther.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

17 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Oh for the love of.

My point isn't "Don't take DP."!

My point is you can generally find bigger paybacks on survivability than SIX SLOTTING DP.

 

'Oh for the Love of...' Azrael?  *Bashful look.  You'll turn my head.  *Bats eyelids.

 

You don't HAVE to take it.  And some 'crack' builders, like your good self, may be able to 'build' around having to take it.

 

Not something I'd advise for 'L' plate Tankers levelling on SOs.  When ambition's reach exceeds their grasp. Or.  Not in the 40s-50s when the 'Debuff' mobs start beating the crepe outta ya.

 

Azrael.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Golden Azrael

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Golden Azrael said:

However, I've hand my toggle pants pulled down even when blessed in that department.  ('Maybe it's because I've got high positional defence...but that may not extend to high Energy Defence.  I'll check that on my SR and Shield Tanks.)  So it may be that.

 

Looking at CoD, the sapper attacks are either ranged/energy or aoe/energy so ranged, aoe (SR, Shield, etc) or energy (Nrg, Inv, etc) defense, as long as you're softcapped, will work. If you have both positional and typed defense, the higher value is always used.

[Golden Azrael]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Looking at CoD, the sapper attacks are either ranged/energy or aoe/energy so ranged, aoe (SR, Shield, etc) or energy (Nrg, Inv, etc) defense, as long as you're softcapped, will work. If you have both positional and typed defense, the higher value is always used.

 

Aha.  I see.  

 

I guess, even with capped positional defences they just squeeze the opportunity  for an enemy to hit to the 'last 5%?'  ie.  There's always 'a' chance for an enemy to hit.  aka.  A really bad dice roll for me.  It's just highly unlikely (but not impossible) that I'll get hit.  Most of the time I'll be fine.  But now and again, I may get hit.  *(Unless I'm on Electric Armour, where I can look at Sappers with some bemusement and give them the T.K.O!)

 

Thanks for that, Bubba.

 

Azrael.

[Bill Z Bubba]

24 minutes ago, Golden Azrael said:

 

Aha.  I see.  

 

I guess, even with capped positional defences they just squeeze the opportunity  for an enemy to hit to the 'last 5%?'  ie.  There's always 'a' chance for an enemy to hit.  aka.  A really bad dice roll for me.  It's just highly unlikely (but not impossible) that I'll get hit.  Most of the time I'll be fine.  But now and again, I may get hit.  *(Unless I'm on Electric Armour, where I can look at Sappers with some bemusement and give them the T.K.O!)

 

Thanks for that, Bubba.

 

Azrael.

 

And it's only +0 minions that truly get floored to a 5% chance to hit. Everything above them get acc bonuses for rank and level, so no matter how much defense you have, a +4 AV will still have a (5% * 1.4 for +4 * 1.5 for AV) 10.5% chance to hit you and that's IF it's not using a power with heightened accuracy.

[Golden Azrael]

9 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

And it's only +0 minions that truly get floored to a 5% chance to hit. Everything above them get acc bonuses for rank and level, so no matter how much defense you have, a +4 AV will still have a (5% * 1.4 for +4 * 1.5 for AV) 10.5% chance to hit you and that's IF it's not using a power with heightened accuracy.

 

Thanks for the explanation Re: the even higher foes having an even large floor rate.  (I guess my common sense side of me knew this...but I don't think I ever wanted to acknowledge this. 😛 )

 

An essential fact of life that any beginner builder of Tanks really should know!

 

And that's why on things like Longbow, Carnie, Malta etc, they'll eventually hit you and hurt you.  +4x8.  

 

+3x8.  No problem.  eg.  Council on even unoptimised Invinc' / EM builds I can stand there pretty much immune.  (Just thinking for a moment.  That and the way Invinc' scales when you're in melee.  A rising tide lifts all defensive boats...and I have enough base amount to scale to cap and beyond.  But I do come acropper vs Sappas at Range before Invinc' can kick in to mob proximity.  I'll have to have another luck at my Invinc/EM Tank.)

 

That +4x8 is some step up in my experience.  Especially against certain mobs who'll debuff the crepe out of you if they get a 'lucky' hit in.

 

Azrael.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Golden Azrael

[Hyperstrike]

4 hours ago, Golden Azrael said:

 

'Oh for the Love of...' Azrael?  *Bashful look.  You'll turn my head.  *Bats eyelids.

 

You don't HAVE to take it.  And some 'crack' builders, like your good self, may be able to 'build' around having to take it.

 

Not something I'd advise for 'L' plate Tankers levelling on SOs.  When ambition's reach exceeds their grasp. Or.  Not in the 40s-50s when the 'Debuff' mobs start beating the crepe outta ya.

 

Azrael.

I do not "build around having to" take anything.
For DP, take it because NOT having any heal at all is generally a Bad Idea^<TM>.
But there's a BIG difference between not taking it and simply not going ham on the slot distribution.

And I've said multiple times over the years, the builds I'm producing are generally meant to be END GAME builds.
Not leveling builds.
Not SO builds.

[Hyperstrike]

18 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

Not when you figure set bonuses in with it 😎

So you're saying that cranking 50% Regen out of Defense slottings, and ladling in 30-50% more Resist, while stacking in Incarnate Soft-cap levels of defense isn't a better investment than six slotting DP?

REALLY?

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

So you're saying that cranking 50% Regen out of Defense slottings, and ladling in 30-50% more Resist, while stacking in Incarnate Soft-cap levels of defense isn't a better investment than six slotting DP?

REALLY?

 

Not when you have all that already. 

 

Yeah. Really.  Plus 6 slotting dull pain will get you a little more psi resists to cover the psi hole.

 

It all adds up.

[Infinitum]

9 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

I'm producing are generally meant to be END GAME builds.

 

They don't take into account all the psi or toxic that exists end game though.  Which is minimal to achieve.

[Golden Azrael]

15 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

And I've said multiple times over the years, the builds I'm producing are generally meant to be END GAME builds.
Not leveling builds.
Not SO builds.

 

True.  There is a difference to a 'Starter' Tank, a levelling Tank (or someone new to Tanks or CoH in general) and an END GAME build by Hyperstrike.

 

I'm a 80-90% builder.  Not a 100% builder and most of that I leave until I hit 50 (...and when I do build, I work under the 'restriction' of taking most of the armour and offences because I won't chop up the Primaries or Secondaries.)  I'm also not that bothered about the 'END GAME' that much, to be honest.  Many do.  I don't.

 

I've done eg. Hami, of course, once on HC.  It's a bit overblown to me.  I know players like it.  My SR/SJustice Tank crashed and burned on it (no regen, no heal...)  Those incarnate 'uber' missions.  Don't like those either.

 

I do like the ITF.  I think Live devs did a sound job on that.  Done that often.  And the Dark Astoria post 50 content aint bad at all.

 

But my thrust for this thread is for SO builds, levelling and probably 80%-ish Tank builds.  Not 'edge' builds for uber content.  Though any beginner Tank may want to get there at the speed of their discretion.  Though 'Edge' builds for Uber content.  It's still part of the conversation, to a degree.  It's useful to see where you start and where you can end up.  

 

I guess I'm Patch Issue 3 at heart.  Part of me will never there.  Though I have come around to building with HC and surgical intervention with some 'Uniques' into my levelling SO builds...and I don't necessarily leave 'all' the build until L50 like I used to.

 

Azrael.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Golden Azrael

[Hyperstrike]

18 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

Wait, I am totally missing something I feel like. Why wouldn't someone take Dull Pain if they aren't HP capped without it? Even if they are without it, why would you not want to take a heal? And Preventive Maintenance has really good Set Bonuses the whole way through.

I think we have some miscommunication going on.

My basic point is, in a final, end-game build, you can usually eake out better survivability through set bonuses and fairly cut-throat slotting than you can from taking DP and throwing six slots at it.

Now I'm STILL taking DP!  Don't get me wrong.  I'm an idiot.  Just not THAT big of an idiot.

It's just that healing/regen is NOT "damage mitigation".  And I generally prefer to slot for ACTUAL damage mitigation/damage avoidance so I just don't take the damage, and therefore don't need to patch it up after.

[Hyperstrike]

1 minute ago, Golden Azrael said:

 

True.  There is a difference to a 'Starter' Tank, a levelling Tank (or someone new to Tanks or CoH in general) and an END GAME build by Hyperstrike.

 

I'm a 80-90% builder.  Not a 100% builder and most of that I leave until I hit 50 (...and when I do build, I work under the 'restriction' of taking most of the armour and offences because I won't chop up the Primaries or Secondaries.)  I'm also not that bothered about the 'END GAME' that much, to be honest.  Many do.  I don't.

 

I've done eg. Hami, of course, once on HC.  It's a bit overblown to me.  I know players like it.  My SR/SJustice Tank crashed and burned on it (no regen, no heal...)  Those incarnate 'uber' missions.  Don't like those either.

 

I do like the ITF.  I think Live devs did a sound job on that.  Done that often.  And the Dark Astoria post 50 content aint bad at all.

 

But my thrust for this thread is for SO builds, levelling and probably 80%-ish Tank builds.  Not 'edge' builds for uber content.  Though any beginner Tank may want to get there at the speed of their discretion.

 

I guess I'm Patch Issue 3 at heart.  Part of me will never there.  Though I have come around to building with HC and surgical intervention with some 'Uniques' into my levelling SO builds...and I don't necessarily leave 'all' the build until L50 like I used to.

 

Azrael.

Pretty much.
If you look at my starting/leveling builds, they're usually WILDLY different than my end-game builds.
Yes, if cash becomes available, (and for me, cash is nearly ALWAYS available), I can twink lower level builds with universal "nice to haves", like Numina, Miracle, and Panacea uniques as they become available to me.

I should probably be WAY more religious about my "this is an end-game build" disclaimer...

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

My basic point is, in a final, end-game build, you can usually eake out better survivability through set bonuses and fairly cut-throat slotting than you can from taking DP and throwing six slots at it.

 

That is a contradiction - because you can get great set bonuses from 6 slotting dull pain plus you get the regen factor

[Golden Azrael]

3 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

I think we have some miscommunication going on.

My basic point is, in a final, end-game build, you can usually eake out better survivability through set bonuses and fairly cut-throat slotting than you can from taking DP and throwing six slots at it.

Now I'm STILL taking DP!  Don't get me wrong.  I'm an idiot.  Just not THAT big of an idiot.

It's just that healing/regen is NOT "damage mitigation".  And I generally prefer to slot for ACTUAL damage mitigation/damage avoidance so I just don't take the damage, and therefore don't need to patch it up after.

 

There have been cased were I've six slotted a regen power on a Tank and later thought.  I could have done with '3' of those slots elsewhere.  Cold reflection.

 

Lots of the Tanks I rolled (80-90%-ish builds) I thought were hot builds.  Until Hami lasered my SR/SJ Tank.  Or a Sapper pulled my Toggle pants down on my Invul'/EM tank (Because I swapped out the defence for Procs as an experiment.  I never did get the chance to fix that.  But looking at Sovera's Invul/EM Tank build, I may go back and fix dat.)

 

DP works like an absorb.  You get a big chunk of HPs.

 

Regen is generally reactive.  You get hit you put it back.  (I remember being somewhat disappointed with WP on a Tank because it didn't take an alpha strike too well...before WP finally kicked in...but built out?  A WP can be impressive when Res/Def' are in harmony.)

 

Prevention is better than cure, etc.

 

And that mitigation comes in many forms.  On my Elec Armour Tank?  Power Sink.  Mobs stand around looking a bit worried.  'What's he going to do next?'

 

Azrael.

[Hyperstrike]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

That is a contradiction - because you can get great set bonuses from 6 slotting dull pain plus you get the regen factor

I see you ignored my distinction between Damage Mitigation and heal/regen.

[Golden Azrael]

4 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Pretty much.
If you look at my starting/leveling builds, they're usually WILDLY different than my end-game builds.
Yes, if cash becomes available, (and for me, cash is nearly ALWAYS available), I can twink lower level builds with universal "nice to haves", like Numina, Miracle, and Panacea uniques as they become available to me.

I should probably be WAY more religious about my "this is an end-game build" disclaimer...

 

Perhaps, regarding your last line. 

 

As you and I have both said, a Tank is a different thing at different stages of the Tank journey.

 

The nice thing about that is it gives beginner tanks, levelling tanks, 80% build tanks and recent Tank vets like me something to aim as we shift gears through our Tank journey.

 

Your builds speak for themselves (with the 'End Game' caveat.)

 

I have had a look at your uber builds and based my derivations off them, Infinitum and others.

 

I'll have to check your builds again.  And you're spot on re: this point.

 

EVEN as a starter, levelling Tank.  You don't have to spend hundreds of millions.  As an SO levelling Tank?  If you put 'nice to haves' (as you say) such as Numina, Miracle, Panacea uniques (and the two Global Defence Unqiues) they can have a massive impact for the sake of a handful of uniques.  That's relatively little coin for the improvements they bring.

 

If you add the Tank ATs?  It ratchets things up to the next level as you shift gears.  

 

The last two points are crucial for anyone new to Tanking.

 

Azrael.

[Hyperstrike]

Just now, Golden Azrael said:

 

There have been cased were I've six slotted a regen power on a Tank and later thought.  I could have done with '3' of those slots elsewhere.  Cold reflection.

 

Lots of the Tanks I rolled (80-90%-ish builds) I thought were hot builds.  Until Hami lasered my SR/SJ Tank.  Or a Sapper pulled my Toggle pants down on my Invul'/EM tank (Because I swapped out the defence for Procs as an experiment.  I never did get the chance to fix that.  But looking at Sovera's Invul/EM Tank build, I may go back and fix dat.)

 

 

Hami is rough on everything.
Massive debuffs, and basically auto-hit.

And a general answer when people point out "it sucks".
YES!  It DOES.
BUT it sucks LESS than *insert comparison*.

Also, I generally don't recommend people simply BLINDLY copy my builds.
I toss them out there as a baseline for a generally VERY tough build.
Mainly because people don't always give me their build priorities.
So I default to "push Defense and Resist".

Where people go from there?  Up to them.

[Infinitum]

12 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

I see you ignored my distinction between Damage Mitigation and heal/regen.

 

No - but you are also missing my point that the set bonuses also add up - and the extra regen factor with capped HP also contribute to a finely tuned balanced build.

 

If you are all set in every other aspect. Why not? that is my point. My build has softcapped typed, softcapped melee and over 80 res on everything including psi and toxic with 3 stacks of MotT - with 1 stack its over 70.  S/l is of course 90. Why wouldnt you add the other to the list at that point because the bases are covered.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Infinitum

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Hami is rough on everything.
Massive debuffs, and basically auto-hit.

And a general answer when people point out "it sucks".
YES!  It DOES.
BUT it sucks LESS than *insert comparison*.

Also, I generally don't recommend people simply BLINDLY copy my builds.
I toss them out there as a baseline for a generally VERY tough build.
Mainly because people don't always give me their build priorities.
So I default to "push Defense and Resist".

Where people go from there?  Up to them.

 

Yeah agreed everything goes out the window with hami.  You cant heal if he hits you.

[Golden Azrael]

14 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Hami is rough on everything.
Massive debuffs, and basically auto-hit.

And a general answer when people point out "it sucks".
YES!  It DOES.
BUT it sucks LESS than *insert comparison*.

Also, I generally don't recommend people simply BLINDLY copy my builds.
I toss them out there as a baseline for a generally VERY tough build.
Mainly because people don't always give me their build priorities.
So I default to "push Defense and Resist".

Where people go from there?  Up to them.

 

Sound advice.

 

You're right about builds.

 

If you're new to wrapping your head around building, copy a build.  But keep in mind what you want.  Or find a build closest to what you want.  Then copy that.

 

As your confidence in building grows?  Change the build.  Don't copy it verbatim.  Change little things.

 

Play with mids.  It won't bite.  (At one point, I didn't see the point in Mids at all.  'Hey, he's crazy...!')

 

Then you'll eventually get to the spot were you can just build what you want yourself.  ('I want to cap Melee defence...' for example...which I finally did on my Invul'/SS Tank.  I got so beepd off by the Rage Crash?  I just took it out of my power tray.  So what did I do?  I made a design decision to put 'SOME' proc into my damage powers whilst minimising the impact to Melee defence.  I can still make the cap with Barrier.)

 

I'm a better builder now than I was on live.  I had no clue what I was doing even when I spent 3.5 billion on a Dominator.

 

Azrael.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Golden Azrael