Bill Z Bubba Posted July 10, 2022 Posted July 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Aracknight said: Hasten: I have never taken this power, but I used to not understand why everyone took it. While yes, I use SR primarily, there's plenty of set bonuses to build a good attack chain, so why aren't they? I understand it now. They either slot for nothing but Acc and Dam and rely on Hasten for their recharge instead of enhancements, or they're slotting for Acc and Procs for the same reason. I run followup, focus, slash, repeat with my claws/sr. It requires 313% total recharge in followup to work. My followup only has 99.88 slotted and 186.25 global for a total of 286.13 with another 10% coming from Time Lord's Boon for 296.13 and a pause of .17 seconds. Slash is slotted with 5 Hecatomb and the Achilles' Heel procs. Focus is slotted with 5 Apocalypse and the Glad Javelin toxic proc. Followup is slotted with a full set of Sup Crit Strikes. This build has a 2:45 average pylon time. What's yours? 1 hour ago, Aracknight said: Combat Jumping: Never used it. a little jumping, a little Def and Immobilize resistance. Good for squishies I guess? Or people who aren't taking full set bonuses to maximize their defenses because they are....chasing procs. I'm not chasing procs as shown above but I am chasing defense and recharge. One LotG +rech in CJ works out well. 1 hour ago, Aracknight said: Aid Self: Never taken, never used. It's a self heal, I guess, and if you don't take it you're a noob of some sort. Guess I'm a noob. I have this on zero characters. 1 hour ago, Aracknight said: Tough: I need this power, I always take it and I never even turn it on. It's a mule power for three IOs I generally need for my builds. But hey, at least in this scenario I've custom created for myself, I still have to take other pancake I'll never use to get it! Maybe if it Tough granted +Res to all instead of just smashing and lethal, similar to how Weave grants +Def to all, I'd be more likely to turn it on and slot it intentionally. PS: While the pool this power comes from is clearly named the Fighting pool and not the Self Defense Pool, I assure you, anywhere that isn't trying to take your money and convince you that their teacher is a deific being worthy of your eternal adoration (and financing!) will teach you defense first, usually through avoidance, and offense second. Odd, considering that SL covers the majority of incoming damage. 1 hour ago, Aracknight said: Weave: What's awesome about this power, is that this pool power does something not even my SR toggles do. It gives +Def to everything, and some Immobilize resistance too. I know from my years and years of Kenpo and Capoeira training that you learn to avoid fire, negative, and psionic energy attacks between 7 and 9 on Mondays, Thursdays, and Saturday evenings. Yup. Have it on all my SRs.
Aracknight Posted July 10, 2022 Posted July 10, 2022 (edited) My pylon time varies between 4 and 5 minutes depending on if i use diamagnetic or degenerative interface. While degenerative is 30 to 45 seconds faster, i prefer diamagnetic because the -to hit decreases incoming damage. I also often forget to use assault hybrid because im monitoring PB. My attack chain is Storm kick(on auto fire)-Crippling axe kick-Storm kick-Cobra strike. I prefer tactics with Gaussians to Focus Chi. Im aware of how to decrease my pylon time largely thanks to your posts which i very much appreciate. I just made different choices based on my playstyle and preference. Im choosing to believe you were truly interested in my pylon time and not jumping directly to the pancake measuring contest. For now. Question though. Can you please demonstrate how removing boxing/kick from your build and replacing it with any other one slot pool power will appreciably decrease that pylon time? Edited July 10, 2022 by Aracknight Added a question.
golstat2003 Posted July 10, 2022 Posted July 10, 2022 I've never heard of Aid self being necessary, or chosen by most folks. I barely see it on any builds posted on these forums. So I found that very interesting. 1
Bill Z Bubba Posted July 10, 2022 Posted July 10, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Aracknight said: Question though. Can you please demonstrate how removing boxing/kick from your build and replacing it with any other one slot pool power will appreciably decrease that pylon time? Sure. As I'm pool locked to Fighting, Leaping, Flight, Speed and Body Mastery, I drop boxing and take focused accuracy and stick the Guassian CFBU in it. Conserve Power and the Perf Shifter CF+end (edit: in Phys Perf) cover the end cost. Edit2: And if that doesn't cover the end cost, since we're talking pylon times, I swap ageless core for barrier core and cover the end cost AND get rid of that .17 pause between chains that I have now. DPS goes up. Edited July 10, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba
Aracknight Posted July 10, 2022 Posted July 10, 2022 How much time do you estimate the effect on your pylon time will be?
Bill Z Bubba Posted July 10, 2022 Posted July 10, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Aracknight said: How much time do you estimate the effect on your pylon time will be? No clue. But I suspect a +100% damage buff for 5.25 sec at 1PPM checking every 10 seconds would have some tangible effect. I'm sure someone smarter than me has already figured out the average +DPS from it. Edited July 10, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba
battlewraith Posted July 10, 2022 Posted July 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said: And if that doesn't cover the end cost, since we're talking pylon times, I swap ageless core for barrier core and cover the end cost AND get rid of that .17 pause between chains that I have now. DPS goes up. Meaning that, for the sake of this particular metric, you are going to sacrifice the defensive benefit of barrier in order to cover the added end cost of running the 1 slotted end hog that is focused accuracy. Not that you would run this configuration in general. Or am I misunderstanding you here?
Bill Z Bubba Posted July 10, 2022 Posted July 10, 2022 1 minute ago, battlewraith said: Meaning that, for the sake of this particular metric, you are going to sacrifice the defensive benefit of barrier in order to cover the added end cost of running the 1 slotted end hog that is focused accuracy. Not that you would run this configuration in general. Or am I misunderstanding you here? Generally speaking while solo I run barrier. If teamed, I run ageless or rebirth unless I think the team will benefit more from me staying on barrier. Regardless, I'd have to be able to test the theory properly with or without ageless to see what happens. I suspect, based on the thousands of pylons I've killed in my life, that my current build without ageless would be able to sustain the added end cost of FA as long as I stay in single target mode as would be the case on a pylon run.
Bill Z Bubba Posted July 10, 2022 Posted July 10, 2022 Regardless, the question was can I drop boxing/tough and pick one other power to increase my DPS. The answer is yes.
Bill Z Bubba Posted July 10, 2022 Posted July 10, 2022 (edited) Come to think on it over a smoke, were I able to drop Box/Kick, I'd also drop CJ and then take Maneuvers/Assault. End cost of those 2 is .07 less than CJ/FA for more defense and a more constant damage buff. Edit: And buff the entire team should I choose to team. Edit2: But no power creep here, folks! Edited July 10, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba
battlewraith Posted July 10, 2022 Posted July 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said: Edit2: But no power creep here, folks! Yeah it's really damning if we hold single target damage against a pylon as the gold standard for how everyone should build. Using a build that heavily leverages IOs and incarnates to probably result in a minor damage buff.
Bill Z Bubba Posted July 10, 2022 Posted July 10, 2022 12 minutes ago, battlewraith said: Yeah it's really damning if we hold single target damage against a pylon as the gold standard for how everyone should build. Using a build that heavily leverages IOs and incarnates to probably result in a minor damage buff. Pylon performance shows performance against AVs, EBs, Monsters and GMs. It's not like figuring out and building for one's pylon time is useless. Regardless, as much as you'd obviously like to dodge the facts, given the OP's request, if I can skip boxing/tough, I can choose a power to replace it that will improve my DPS. Do you have a valid counterpoint or will you continue dodging the facts?
Aracknight Posted July 10, 2022 Posted July 10, 2022 It's not that im debating whether or not the creep exists, but rather the magnitude. If we're talking about a 3-5 second solo pylon time reduction from an acknowledged pylon expert with a bleeding edge build, that's a far different cry than a minute off your time, and if it's the former, is it really that game-breaking? And if someone like you, who clearly enjoys pushing that envelope, has fun (!!!!) and a feeling of accomplishment at reaching a new plateau, does the cost truly outweigh the benefit? Not everyone pushes the envelope like you. Some of us just want to fly without refilling the fuel on our jetpack because we had to take stupid Boxing which we will never, ever use. We might even arrive slower based on what our land and jumping speed already are, and we might even see a bit more of the game world we love so much because otherwise we are zipping by so fast we barely see it. The hardest thing about perspective is truly seeing someone elses. They say not everyone reada the boards, and that not everyone is...lets use purpled out as the term. The game is allegedly balanced around SOs. So if someone on your end gets a little faster, and someone on the bottom end gets to fly, while never even attempting to solo a pylon, why can't it be both? 1
battlewraith Posted July 10, 2022 Posted July 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said: Do you have a valid counterpoint or will you continue dodging the facts? Well you haven't actually given the facts. He asked you what the decrease in time would be and if it was appreciable. You haven't given a number for how much dps would go up under these circumstances. I think you're probably right that you could raise your dps. Does that fact mean that, because of somebody's slight improvement under controlled circumstances in a very specific context, everyone should be saddled with the requirements that prevent you from achieving this marginal gain? IMO no. It's probably irrelevant to most players. Certainly is to me. You could make some gimpy build that skips aoe attacks and movement powers to do the same thing under the current system.
Bill Z Bubba Posted July 11, 2022 Posted July 11, 2022 5 minutes ago, battlewraith said: Well you haven't actually given the facts. He asked you what the decrease in time would be and if it was appreciable. You haven't given a number for how much dps would go up under these circumstances. I think you're probably right that you could raise your dps. Does that fact mean that, because of somebody's slight improvement under controlled circumstances in a very specific context, everyone should be saddled with the requirements that prevent you from achieving this marginal gain? IMO no. It's probably irrelevant to most players. Certainly is to me. You could make some gimpy build that skips aoe attacks and movement powers to do the same thing under the current system. Dodge it is. Got it. What's irrelevant to you is irrelevant to me.
Rudra Posted July 11, 2022 Posted July 11, 2022 (edited) Sooooooooooo... if the already best players/characters get better, but not by more than some undefined limit, it is fine because they are already the best.... So if a change allows a min-max player to skip the min part and just go for max... that's good game play.... My head hurts.... Edit: And to be clear... all you want is something new? You are not trying to find a way to max out your characters' power/effectiveness? And maxing out is... somehow adding something new to the game? Oy. Edited July 11, 2022 by Rudra
Aracknight Posted July 11, 2022 Posted July 11, 2022 The best players will always find a way to get better, and will always find creative ways to separate themselvea from the next tier no matter what the limitations are. Are we designing for or against the bleeding edge level of play, or for everyone? I think thats the best way to explain my particular question. 1
Rudra Posted July 11, 2022 Posted July 11, 2022 I'm pretty sure the idea is to build for balance and keep the game interesting. I could be wrong though.
Aracknight Posted July 11, 2022 Posted July 11, 2022 Okay, so if it's balance, and we know where the top end is, and we know where the bottom end is, where's the middle?
Bill Z Bubba Posted July 11, 2022 Posted July 11, 2022 1 minute ago, Aracknight said: The best players will always find a way to get better, and will always find creative ways to separate themselvea from the next tier no matter what the limitations are. Are we designing for or against the bleeding edge level of play, or for everyone? I think thats the best way to explain my particular question. This is a good post. My only answer is that game design should take everything into account. It should nerf when nerfs are warranted, it should buff the same. It should rid itself of bad decisions in the past and make better decisions in the future. It should avoid the pitfalls that the history of game design has taught us and utilize that which we've learned along the way. It's a TALL damn order and I don't envy the folks that have taken it on. 2
Rudra Posted July 11, 2022 Posted July 11, 2022 2 minutes ago, Aracknight said: Okay, so if it's balance, and we know where the top end is, and we know where the bottom end is, where's the middle? Damn good question these days.... Sorry, I don't think I have an answer for that.
Bill Z Bubba Posted July 11, 2022 Posted July 11, 2022 1 minute ago, Aracknight said: Okay, so if it's balance, and we know where the top end is, and we know where the bottom end is, where's the middle? There's the rub. None of us can agree. It would be helpful to us all if this game's devs would decide where the balance point should be so that we can all assist them in getting there but even they can't decide where it is.
Aracknight Posted July 11, 2022 Posted July 11, 2022 (edited) Then I suppose we should flee, flee for our lives. This was contentious, and I did not enjoy it. I don't enjoy having three powers I had to choose that will never be slotted in my tool bar, and only one of which serves me any purpose. I just want to be excited to choose a power and to use it. I use every other power, when appropriate, and yet I still have to watch a timer if I'm badging in the Shadow Shard. I'm a roleplayer, and I have to justify, if only to myself, why and where the pancake a jetpack comes from when I hit a button, when all I really needed to do was put on some rocket boots from ICON. I've been around games all my life. I'm the children parents were warned about during the satanic AD&D panic of the late seventies and early eighties. I understand power creep, I've been a GM and designed in MUDs before. But there is, and should be, a break point between a system's limitations and having Fun. And useless (and by useless, i mean never used, not that they do not have intrinsic value of some kind under different circumstances) powers are not fun. Edited July 11, 2022 by Aracknight brevity
Bill Z Bubba Posted July 11, 2022 Posted July 11, 2022 2 minutes ago, Aracknight said: Then I suppose we should flee, flee for our lives. This was contentious, and I did not enjoy it. I don't enjoy having three powers I had to choose that will never be slotted in my tool bar, and only one of which serves me any purpose. I just want to be excited to choose a power and to use it. I use every other power, when appropriate, and yet I still have to watch a timer if I'm badging in the Shadow Shard. I'm a roleplayer, and I have to justify, if only to myself, why and where the pancake a jetpack comes from when I hit a button, when all I really needed to do was put on some rocket boots from ICON. I've been around games all my life. I'm the children parents were warned about during the satanic AD&D panic of the late seventies and early eighties. I understand power creep, I've been a GM and designed in MUDs before. But there is, and should be, a break point between a system's limitations and having Fun. And useless (and by useless, i mean never used, not that they do not have intrinsic use of some kind under different circumstances) powers are not fun. I get it. I honestly do get it. My 1st D&D campaign was at around 10 yrs old in the early 80s. I was GMing by 12. I played the Champions PnP. And Gamma World. And Vamp t Masq. Fun is important but I wasn't going to let my D&D players use Wish to bypass the entire campaign I spent months designing.
Aracknight Posted July 11, 2022 Posted July 11, 2022 Players like me would have found a way to force you to, while making you believe it was your idea in the first place 😛 1 1
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