Build Help for av/gm and itf content

[MajMox]

Hi guys, Trying to figure out what to run in terms of a couple gimmicky characters i want to make, I'm thinking either a rad/rad defender or a rad/sonic defender i want to both be able to solo alot of if not almost anything but also be very useful on teams, inf is not an issue just need some help with the builds and what doesnt feel super clunky to play

[Linea]

Assuming 4-Star Hardmode, and NOT Speed Running.

Illusion/Rad are golden for the Hardmode ITF.  Illusion to counter the <redacted>, and /Rad to help counter AV/GM regen.

For defender, I'd Say Rad/Sonic with Tactics, and Kismet.   Add Vengeance if you can, people drop like flies in Hardmode.  You may or may not need to add (Nerve or Vigor) for 4-Star Hardmode, depending on actual end build.

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by Linea

[00Troy00]

3 hours ago, Linea said:

Assuming 4-Star Hardmode, and NOT Speed Running.

Illusion/Rad are golden for the Hardmode ITF.  Illusion to counter the <redacted>, and /Rad to help counter AV/GM regen.

For defender, I'd Say Rad/Sonic with Tactics, and Kismet.   Add Vengeance if you can, people drop like flies in Hardmode.  You may or may not need to add (Nerve or Vigor) for 4-Star Hardmode, depending on actual end build.

 

It looks like Sonic blast is about to get screwed in terms of debuffing ability.

[Lyrium]

On 7/18/2022 at 5:01 PM, Linea said:

Assuming 4-Star Hardmode, and NOT Speed Running.

Illusion/Rad are golden for the Hardmode ITF.  Illusion to counter the <redacted>, and /Rad to help counter AV/GM regen.

For defender, I'd Say Rad/Sonic with Tactics, and Kismet.   Add Vengeance if you can, people drop like flies in Hardmode.  You may or may not need to add (Nerve or Vigor) for 4-Star Hardmode, depending on actual end build.

 

Rad better than Cold for AV debuffing? Do you mind sharing your thoughts on that? 🙂

Edited July 20, 2022 by Erhnam

[MoonSheep]

poison/fire probably one of the best defenders for soloing. it disarms AVs in seconds

[Linea]

Assuming 4-Star and Assuming you're doing it the hardest way possible, with the weakest team possible, perma -1000 -regen becomes the priority.

 

(163+50) / .48 / .45 / .66 ~= 1494 raw dps.   This is probably pretty close to the actual break even number based on my solo runs and testing, and using Hornet's damage types.  This equals out to Three or Four Hornets with one +Accuracy Buffer for a team of 4 or 5, Alternate damage types to Hornet would help tremendously.

 

One Rad can (usually) perma -regen via stacking, cold has half that capability.  I haven't double checked that the Rad is as effective vs Rommy, but it's still at least twice as effective at -regen as the Cold.

Cold has more and different debuffs, that are brutal, but at 163 regen with massive resists, you either need alternate damage types or you really need to floor that regen somehow.  THEN by all means, let the Cold, or even better a Cold/Sonic, destroy what stats are left to completely obliterate.  At that point he'd drop like a rock.

 

A team of Lineas could completely ignore the regen issue, but I'm assuming approaching the issue from the weakest possible player position.  Effectively assuming a team of 8 SO only Tier 4 Incarnates that are generating a composite 800 dps or less, that's halved, then cut in half again by resists, then cut again by the mechanics of the fight.   You're left with less than 115 sustained dps vs 163 regen.  At that point you're surging damage with pets till pets die or expire, or you need that -regen to kill him in any reasonable amount of time.  At that point if I can only have one thing, it's going to be perma -regen.

 

 

 

 

[Lyrium]

4 hours ago, Linea said:

Assuming 4-Star and Assuming you're doing it the hardest way possible, with the weakest team possible, perma -1000 -regen becomes the priority.

 

(163+50) / .48 / .45 / .66 ~= 1494 raw dps.   This is probably pretty close to the actual break even number based on my solo runs and testing, and using Hornet's damage types.  This equals out to Three or Four Hornets with one +Accuracy Buffer for a team of 4 or 5, Alternate damage types to Hornet would help tremendously.

 

One Rad can (usually) perma -regen via stacking, cold has half that capability.  I haven't double checked that the Rad is as effective vs Rommy, but it's still at least twice as effective at -regen as the Cold.

Cold has more and different debuffs, that are brutal, but at 163 regen with massive resists, you either need alternate damage types or you really need to floor that regen somehow.  THEN by all means, let the Cold, or even better a Cold/Sonic, destroy what stats are left to completely obliterate.  At that point he'd drop like a rock.

 

A team of Lineas could completely ignore the regen issue, but I'm assuming approaching the issue from the weakest possible player position.  Effectively assuming a team of 8 SO only Tier 4 Incarnates that are generating a composite 800 dps or less, that's halved, then cut in half again by resists, then cut again by the mechanics of the fight.   You're left with less than 115 sustained dps vs 163 regen.  At that point you're surging damage with pets till pets die or expire, or you need that -regen to kill him in any reasonable amount of time.  At that point if I can only have one thing, it's going to be perma -regen.

 

 

 

 

Awesome explanations, as always. Thanks!!

[Voltak]

As an ITF expert, small teams and soloing, I second what @Linea said. 
Experience says that the amount of regen debuff will contribute more to your dmg needed to kill the AVs.  
1,000% regen debuff is not exactly that. 
After the AV resists, you are left with a smaller portion. 
Cold does not have any power with that.  Cold has, before resists , 500%
Radiation does have powers that will give 1,000% and after the AV resists you are still left with a good portion to use so you can kill the AV. 

Sonic's DPA is stronger with new release, and therefore a stronger DPS.  
It is still a 44% resists debuff outside of the Nuke which can get you a total of 60% debuff on resists. 
A stronger/higher DPS is a big deal. 

Radiation has more resists debuffs and when you add all of that, it is a remarkable difference. 

I have solo'd the ITF at 54x8, no inspirations , no temps, no P2w, no temps. 

The only problem and it is a HUGE problem is part 2.  But once you make it past part 2, then Part 3 and 4 are the easiest by far on an Empth all, or almost all,  else because the Heroes will be the ones killing the AVs and you just have to keep them alive and you will for sure. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Voltak

[Hjarki]

Radiation has -500% Regen (which can stack) for 30s every 90s, plus a trivial -500% Regen for 15s every 300s.

Cold has -500% Regen for 30s every 120s, which cannot stack.

Thermal has -500% Regen (which can stack) for 40s every 120s.

Dark has -500% Regen for 30s every 180s (stacking but doesn't matter) plus -50% which can potentially have about 5 stacks and another -100% Regen from the pet (somewhat unreliably).

Electrical has -75% Regen that can realistically stack 5 times, plus a pet attack for -50% that can stack twice.

Poison and Kinetics can probably stack -50% 7 - 8 times.

Trick Arrow can, at perma-Hasten, reduce Regen by an average of -375%.

 

From what I read, Regeneration has been normalized for higher health in more difficult content. During Archvillain resistance, debuffs are reduced by 87% and +3 level shift reduces debuffs by -33%. Stock level 54 AV have 30,677 health and regeneration 5% of this every 12 sec.

 

So if you were able to completely shut down that stock AV's regen, you'd be doing the equivalent of 127.8 dps. To completely eliminate regen through the debuff resistance/purple patch above would require -1023% Regen.

 

With that in mind, my suspicion is that Trick Arrow's ability to shut down his self-healing would have far more overall impact on the length of the fight. However, I don't have the exact data for that. I'm pretty sure the sacrifice mechanic is unresistible. However, the self-healing melee attack on the Nictus is about 420 dps (the figures for Augustus himself are based on a variable I don't know the value of).

 

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Hjarki

[Linea]

The DPS requirement has been reduced in the latest ITF patch.  ~1000 dps is break even.  But that doesn't really change the answer all that much, more accessible to lower end teams, but otherwise still difficult.  We'll see what future patches change up or down.

[bigfashizzel]

On 7/26/2022 at 3:35 PM, Hjarki said:

Radiation has -500% Regen (which can stack) for 30s every 90s, plus a trivial -500% Regen for 15s every 300s.

Cold has -500% Regen for 30s every 120s, which cannot stack.

Thermal has -500% Regen (which can stack) for 40s every 120s.

Dark has -500% Regen for 30s every 180s (stacking but doesn't matter) plus -50% which can potentially have about 5 stacks and another -100% Regen from the pet (somewhat unreliably).

Electrical has -75% Regen that can realistically stack 5 times, plus a pet attack for -50% that can stack twice.

Poison and Kinetics can probably stack -50% 7 - 8 times.

Trick Arrow can, at perma-Hasten, reduce Regen by an average of -375%.

 

Seems weird to omit Traps being able to provide -1000% regen with poison trap (https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=villain_pets.traps_poison_gas.poison_gas&at=minion_pets) -- although I don't see what the uptime is on City of Data.  The debuff lasts 10 seconds but I don't know how long the cloud itself lasts (which reapplies the debuff).

[Hjarki]

28 minutes ago, bigfashizzel said:

 

Seems weird to omit Traps being able to provide -1000% regen with poison trap (https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=villain_pets.traps_poison_gas.poison_gas&at=minion_pets) -- although I don't see what the uptime is on City of Data.  The debuff lasts 10 seconds but I don't know how long the cloud itself lasts (which reapplies the debuff).

The trap itself pulses every second for debuffs/control that last 10 sec, for 30 sec with a recharge of 90 sec.

 

I wasn't attempting to list every possible -regen effect but give a broad overview of what popular sets give.